Biggest Mistake of 2020-2021 Season is...
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CRoost
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:53 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I'm 100% convinced that we run it back, and we suffer the same injuries to LBJ/AD (with him out in the playoffs), we may actually not make the playoffs with AD/LBJ out, and we would certainly be bounced in the playoffs.

But I can understand how some would just "feel" better being trounced with our original guys. And maybe that's worth something.

Then you'd have the same question I'm posing about Dennis: do you extend Green or let him walk for nothing? What if he wants $15m/year which isn't too much of an ask for a 3/D player?

I would take the same posture. We would have to keep that asset to retain as a player or trade to get something for him.


I’m fine with not making the playoff given the result this year. It’s much better to lose when everyone is on the same page. At least you can find comfort that these guys are together and will most likely will want to be back stronger. I can’t see it with this team.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:56 pm    Post subject:

RI Laker wrote:
Monday morning QB's are never wrong. Unfortunately, Rob doesn't have the luxury of our resident GM's. I thought he constructed a good team overall (on paper). More talent, more O, younger, with less physicality and shot blocking presence. It did not work out and most of it was beyond anyones control. Time to move on.


Looks like he got played by DS's reps pretty badly. But I guess we will know for sure after this offseason.

It's one thing to bring a guy on an expiring. But the way we kowtowed by starting him. And then he declined the extension on top of that.

DS and Drummond would've helped us more off the bench. It's not a good look when you let role players have more control over the rotation than the coach.

And that ain't Monday morning QBing. The majority of Lakers fans were thinking what the (bleep) when DS declared himself the starter when the season began.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:12 pm    Post subject:

CRoost wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I'm 100% convinced that we run it back, and we suffer the same injuries to LBJ/AD (with him out in the playoffs), we may actually not make the playoffs with AD/LBJ out, and we would certainly be bounced in the playoffs.

But I can understand how some would just "feel" better being trounced with our original guys. And maybe that's worth something.

Then you'd have the same question I'm posing about Dennis: do you extend Green or let him walk for nothing? What if he wants $15m/year which isn't too much of an ask for a 3/D player?

I would take the same posture. We would have to keep that asset to retain as a player or trade to get something for him.


I’m fine with not making the playoff given the result this year. It’s much better to lose when everyone is on the same page. At least you can find comfort that these guys are together and will most likely will want to be back stronger. I can’t see it with this team.


Sure but then people would say Rob kept it too stagnant. Just a no win situation if you don’t win it all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:23 pm    Post subject:

lakersfever714 wrote:

I miss vets like Rondo and Howard who get the job done while getting paid peanuts as opposed to these primadonna who don't get the job done while asking to get paid 10x as much.


Veterans who work for peanuts and make a big contribution are often something you luck into

The Lakers paid Rondo $9 million one year, then he grudgingly resigned for $3 million, and afterwards left us for a two-year, $7.5 million. He never wanted to work for peanuts.

Dwight was a different story. A castoff begging for work. It worked out great for us, but often those scenarios don't. Drummond was a vet who worked for peanuts and looked good on paper, but not as good on the court.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:34 pm    Post subject:

I agree about the luck aspect. Everyone cried about Rondo the entire season (until the playoffs). You just don't know what these vets are going to be able to give you. To make matters worse, we have a coach who really has no imagination on the offensive side of the ball (which can stifle these vets).
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:52 pm    Post subject:

I was fine with Trezz at the time of signing, with the rationale that he could help preserve AD during the regular season. Whether it was warranted or not, he didn't play as much as we thought, and then got completely kicked out of the rotation for the one playoff series.

In hindsight, that was the biggest mistake. Schroder at least has a role on the team in the playoffs, and was actually a solid contributor whenever everyone was healthy. He's also a better asset going forward, while it seems Trezz is losing value in the league by the day. That $9M could've spent on someone or multiple players that actually fit the team's needs better (shooting, perimeter defense/athleticism). Big whiff.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:17 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
RI Laker wrote:
Monday morning QB's are never wrong. Unfortunately, Rob doesn't have the luxury of our resident GM's. I thought he constructed a good team overall (on paper). More talent, more O, younger, with less physicality and shot blocking presence. It did not work out and most of it was beyond anyones control. Time to move on.


Back in January, I made a poll on whether this year's team or last year's team was better. This year's team won 34-17.

https://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=190687&postdays=0&postorder=asc&vote=viewresult

Similarly, I asked in November if people preferred Harrell or Dwight. Harrell won 81-27.


My response to that thread:

Better, or more apt to repeat?

We are "better" if you consider that we are better offensively, but we learned last year that a strong offensive game plus an effective defense is what is necessary to be champions.

I think DS is better than Avery, offensively and defensively, but he's untested in the playoffs/finals, unlike Rondo. Green was competent defensively, but nothing special. Harrell is better than McGee, but Gasol is a huge drop-off versus any of our bigs. Gasol is not effective offensively or defensively, which would be okay if he wasn't a starter. Harrell might make up some of the points Gasol will give up, but that's a big if.

Despite our having Harrel and DS, two very good additions, the fact that we don't have athletic centers on this team may prove our undoing.

This year's team may be better, but last years team is more apt to repeat than this year's team solely due to the presence of Gasol and absence of both Dwight and McGee.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 4:34 pm    Post subject:

Thanks CandyCanes.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:17 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
RI Laker wrote:
Monday morning QB's are never wrong. Unfortunately, Rob doesn't have the luxury of our resident GM's. I thought he constructed a good team overall (on paper). More talent, more O, younger, with less physicality and shot blocking presence. It did not work out and most of it was beyond anyones control. Time to move on.


Back in January, I made a poll on whether this year's team or last year's team was better. This year's team won 34-17.

https://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=190687&postdays=0&postorder=asc&vote=viewresult

Similarly, I asked in November if people preferred Harrell or Dwight. Harrell won 81-27.


Forgot link to Dwight vs Harrell thread:

https://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=190405&start=0
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:31 pm    Post subject:

Biggest mistake was not going harder at Cp3 last year. Dude would have done wonders in shielding our duo from injury along with our duo helping Chris prolong his career.

If we do trade for him this year, it would have to have him opt in and take an extension through us, cause if he opts out and tries to come via S&t, the cap apron and the over-38 rule make it even harder to construct a reunion with the one that got away.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:55 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
RI Laker wrote:
Monday morning QB's are never wrong. Unfortunately, Rob doesn't have the luxury of our resident GM's. I thought he constructed a good team overall (on paper). More talent, more O, younger, with less physicality and shot blocking presence. It did not work out and most of it was beyond anyones control. Time to move on.


Back in January, I made a poll on whether this year's team or last year's team was better. This year's team won 34-17.

https://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=190687&postdays=0&postorder=asc&vote=viewresult

Similarly, I asked in November if people preferred Harrell or Dwight. Harrell won 81-27.


Forgot link to Dwight vs Harrell thread:

https://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.php?t=190405&start=0


I'm not sure how meaningful that is. I suspect lots of people voted based on the thrill of the new and "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out" pique.

Ultimately, fans are pretty clueless. The fans vote for the MVP this year went to Derrick Rose. That says it all to me.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:26 pm    Post subject:

Not hiring a Good GM
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:26 am    Post subject:

I keep seeing some people blame Vogel this year, but he was the toast of the town last year? If you blame Vogel for not adjusting to his talent (which I disagree with), do you not have to blame the FO for not recognizing their coach was not an ideal fit for the players they signed?

Personally, outside of injuries, I think the biggest mistake(s) were made by the FO. I am not sure luck is the right word, but I think the Lakers were very fortunate in 2019-20 that the pieces did fit so well....and so much of the roster was willing to make the sacrifices for the greater good of the team winning. I think good fortune was more responsible for the chemistry than FO design. I think FO got a little full of itself and thought it was easy to just add players around Lebron and AD....and poor personnel decisions were made. Some of them included...

1. Granting the wish of Schroder to be in the starting lineup when he had only really excelled off the bench. If that was a strong desire of his, do not do the trade.

2. Guaranteeing Drummond a starting position to get him to sign.

3. Giving Gasol a 2nd year which handicapped the team

4. Using the MLE on a luxury piece (Harrell) when the team had legitimate depth needs that better fit a Vogel team.

It is hard to be too critical of Pelinka because we have a banner with him as GM, but in my opinion he has not yet proven to be a good GM based on his entire tenure. This offseason will go a long way in providing insight into if he is an above average GM, or someone that was more in the right place at the right time last year. Yes he made the trade to get AD and it paid off in the short term, but like all of his (or his and Magic's) deals to date, it is not clear if he actually received the greatest value in the deal. Taking an objective look at the decisions made since Pelinka arrived, a decent argument can be made that we won a championship in spite of some of the decisions as much as the decisions themselves.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:06 am    Post subject:

roger_federer wrote:
Not hiring a Good GM


He was the GM for the 2019-20 season. Does he get credit for putting that team together?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:20 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:

<snip>

3. Giving Gasol a 2nd year which handicapped the team

.


This caught my eye. I'm unclear how a 2nd year handicaps the team?
(In an ideal world of course I would prefer a 1-year deal, but the Lakers had to coax him out of retirement and were the ones desperate to makeup for Howard)
Isn't Gasol a vet-min? Wouldn't the Lakers need to fill 13 spots regardless and thus mins/vet-mins will occupy at least 5-6 spots if not more?
If not Gasol then some other min/vet min will occupy the slot - and given that one of those will be a 3rd string center, why is it such a limitation for Gasol to serve as a 3rd string center? (He' was much better but I'm arguing worst-case)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:17 am    Post subject:

If you want to nit pick, it was a mistake to lose McGhee and Dwight and swap them for Gasol Harrell and Drummond. No rim protection or consistent defense in the paint in that second group. Although i like Harrell's hustle and offensive production, maybe he could've been used with Dwight and JaValle off the bench.

But it wouldn't have mattered anyway if LBJ and AD were down (60%) and out. We would still be out of the playoffs today and this thread would be titled "Biggest mistake was keeping old man Dwight and McGhee" - and Pelinka should've been more active in the offseason...
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:45 am    Post subject:

adkindo wrote:
I keep seeing some people blame Vogel this year, but he was the toast of the town last year? If you blame Vogel for not adjusting to his talent (which I disagree with), do you not have to blame the FO for not recognizing their coach was not an ideal fit for the players they signed?

Personally, outside of injuries, I think the biggest mistake(s) were made by the FO. I am not sure luck is the right word, but I think the Lakers were very fortunate in 2019-20 that the pieces did fit so well....and so much of the roster was willing to make the sacrifices for the greater good of the team winning. I think good fortune was more responsible for the chemistry than FO design. I think FO got a little full of itself and thought it was easy to just add players around Lebron and AD....and poor personnel decisions were made. Some of them included...

1. Granting the wish of Schroder to be in the starting lineup when he had only really excelled off the bench. If that was a strong desire of his, do not do the trade.

2. Guaranteeing Drummond a starting position to get him to sign.

3. Giving Gasol a 2nd year which handicapped the team

4. Using the MLE on a luxury piece (Harrell) when the team had legitimate depth needs that better fit a Vogel team.

It is hard to be too critical of Pelinka because we have a banner with him as GM, but in my opinion he has not yet proven to be a good GM based on his entire tenure. This offseason will go a long way in providing insight into if he is an above average GM, or someone that was more in the right place at the right time last year. Yes he made the trade to get AD and it paid off in the short term, but like all of his (or his and Magic's) deals to date, it is not clear if he actually received the greatest value in the deal. Taking an objective look at the decisions made since Pelinka arrived, a decent argument can be made that we won a championship in spite of some of the decisions as much as the decisions themselves.


1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.

2. Drummond is a tough call. He was a prize buyout pickup. Without the starter's guarantee, he probably signs elsewhere, which at the time wouldn't have made Lakers fans happy.

3. I disagree with you here. Gasol was a great pickup for the minimum. I wouldn't have hesitated on the 2nd year at the minimum.

4. Never understood the Hazzell move.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:26 am    Post subject:

To clarify on Marc’s 2nd year vet min deal:

The use of the MLE (Trez) and/or BAE (Wes) triggered the hard cap for us.

Marc on a 1 yr vet min deal is a cap hit of 1.6m, but he actually gets paid 2.6m. Marc on a 2yr vet min deal that guarantees the money on the 2nd year is a cap hit of 2.6m on our books this year. Seeing how we were hard capped, that 1m difference forced us to move salary off our books (McGee) and attach our 2024 2nd round pick. Those assets would have been retained had we only guaranteed Marc to 1yr and given him an extra wink to suggest we would definitely sign him the following summer to another guaranteed 1yr vet min.

You can certainly argue that a center rotation of Marc, McGee and Trez is better than starting off the year without McGee. Also let’s not forget that our duo played the 1st portion of the year and then broke down, so any help with the rotations to keep their mins/usage down, certainly helps.

Lastly this Schro thing also bugs me. He gets paid like a starter, but his overall career trajectory has him as a role player off the bench. Who cares really what Atlanta paid him years ago, it’s what his most recent role had him do that we should focus on. He backed up playmakers in Russ, Cp3 and then potentially Bron. If Rob wanted to trade for him with this role in mind, it’s a good deal to make. Protecting Bron is the priority. However if Rob knew dude demanded to change up his role and start next to Bron to eat off his gravitational pull, Rob should have looked elsewhere.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:39 am    Post subject:

vasashi17+ wrote:
To clarify on Marc’s 2nd year vet min deal:

The use of the MLE (Trez) and/or BAE (Wes) triggered the hard cap for us.

Marc on a 1 yr vet min deal is a cap hit of 1.6m, but he actually gets paid 2.6m. Marc on a 2yr vet min deal that guarantees the money on the 2nd year is a cap hit of 2.6m on our books this year. Seeing how we were hard capped, that 1m difference forced us to move salary off our books (McGee) and attach our 2024 2nd round pick. Those assets would have been retained had we only guaranteed Marc to 1yr and given him an extra wink to suggest we would definitely sign him the following summer to another guaranteed 1yr vet min.
<snip>


I see, very informative, thank you. This is why I love LG, posts like this.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:44 am    Post subject:

Probably losing dwight...a D 12 pairing would have been great as a tandum with gasol two different skill sets and we really missed that big athletic center....it would have been nice to see d 12 start with gasol off the bench to help spell bron....but because we didn't get that set up we went deep in a position we really didn't need too...drum, gasol, trezz, AD, we don't need a 4 center deep rotation....that ended up impacting a lot of the roster construction and resulted in role identity issues which I'm sure didn't help chemistry....not adequately replacing Rondos skill set is second for me...we really missed not having a smart player who could run the team similar to the way LeBron does.....
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:51 am    Post subject:

My biggest mistake is the coach being hand strung on who is going to start (ie DS and Drummond). We realized too late that we signed more of an individual players than players playing for the best of the team.

If the coach had control, I would have used in the beginning of the year
LBJ, AD, KCP, Caruso, Gasol or Morris
DS, MH, Kuz, Wes , THT would need to play their way to starter by there play.

Looking forward, I would gladly have Wes, Gasol, Morris, Caruso, Kuz and THT back because from looking through this pass season, they seems to have the team concept of what is best for the team success.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:28 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Yes, I don't know where people got the idea that Schroder was going to come off the bench. We weren't going to start Caruso, THT, or Matthews.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:41 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Yes, I don't know where people got the idea that Schroder was going to come off the bench. We weren't going to start Caruso, THT, or Matthews.


Wes Matthews started for the Bucks in 2019, had good stats - both offensive and defensive, averaged just as many minutes for the Bucks as Green did for the Lakers (roughly 24) and is just a year older than Green. It wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to have started him.
Oh I know it wouldn't have been acceptable to DS, sure.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:54 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Coming into this season he came off the bench 65% of the games he played.
He was a consistent starter 2 out of the 7 seasons he was in the league. The combined team record those 2 seasons was 67-97.

I think he's not seen as a starter on a championship team around the league. A starter on a sub .500 team? Sure.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:56 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
activeverb wrote:
1. I question the DS opinion. I don't love the guy, but he was a 19 ppg starter in Atlanta before he was traded to OKC, and he only became a reserve because Westbrook was in front of him. I don't think he's seen around the league as a career backup/6th man. Given our relative lack of backcourt talent, I think the Lakers always intended for him to start.


Yes, I don't know where people got the idea that Schroder was going to come off the bench. We weren't going to start Caruso, THT, or Matthews.


Wes Matthews started for the Bucks in 2019, had good stats - both offensive and defensive, averaged just as many minutes for the Bucks as Green did for the Lakers (roughly 24) and is just a year older than Green. It wouldn't have been that much of a stretch to have started him.
Oh I know it wouldn't have been acceptable to DS, sure.


Yessir...exactly what TPD said! Plus then there's that Kcp guy too if Wes was to play more at the wing with Kuz backing him up there. Also why can't AC be a starter next to Bron? Go re-read the ridiculous net rating duo stats they had in my previous posts on the subject and get familiar.

Either way, why make it such a "demand" in your opening presser if its already assumed by everybody in the NBA that dude is a clear cut starter (started only 2 years in his 7 year career prior to coming here on 25min per game)?

Quote:
Per CBSsports: "I did this off the bench stuff already for two years with OKC," Schroder said. "I think I will try to move forward, and I think with A.D. [Anthony Davis] and LeBron, I can be helpful as a starter at the PG position so that LeBron don't have so much stuff in his mind."

He went on to add that he believes his agent discussed such a role with the team before the trade, so for the time being, it appears as though the Lakers at least expect Schroder to open the season as their starting point guard. It's an odd decision considering how successful last year's team was with LeBron in that role.
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