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PenG_
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:35 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
ocho wrote:


Anyway this is Westbrook’s 2nd season here. We made the playoffs and won a championship the two years prior to acquiring him. We finished 11th last season and are 13th this season and he’s played nearly every game. If you associate him with being competitive we have a very different definition.


This is brons 5th season and has led us to the lottery without russ. So 3 lottos for him. If he could stay healthy like russ maybe we do better. But unlike russ, who voiced his frustrations last year, Bron ended the season saying it wasn't a failure.

the whole story.


Did the mods add LeBron-hating bots to the forum for engagement purposes?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:43 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
ocho wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
it takes time


They’re 8-10 when all 3 guys play this season and Westbrook had to be moved to the bench because he was so bad. His minutes this year have gone down, btw. Career low.

But you’re right. It’s been a smash success.

playing less time and coming off the bench has bring a better result to the team. they are 8-10 with all 3 guys so all the blame goes to Russ? all i am saying is that he is making an impact on this team especially on offense, and i am not sure why anyone would disagree with that.


Yes we have an established data set of what LeBron and Davis are capable of together with decent support around them. We have an additional data set of what they look like when you wipe out that support and add Westbrook. One is a championship team, the other is a dumpster fire.

He has definitely made an impact on the team by slamming shut our contending window and turning us into a jumbled mess on the court. They’ve lessened his minutes and role which in turn have lessened the damage he does and I’m supposed to give him credit? Please.

i also have data of how many games Lebron and AD missed. Russ didn't put a gun to our FO's head to make the trade. if you think the impact he is making is because he is playing less, why not just cut him? would that make you happy? would that make us a better team?


How about we start with taking away all of his crunch time minutes and we’ll take it from there.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:49 am    Post subject:

I think a lot of things can be true.

1. Russ trade one of the worst Lakers trades IMO. Stripped down a championship team to what it is now.

2. Russ is playing well in his 6th man bench role. With AD out, he has been a good 2nd option behind LBJ. But I think it appears the #s will show that Russ/AD or Russ/LBJ work fine. But Russ with AD/LBJ just doesn't work, especially in crunch time.

3. Let Russ get the lion's share of his minutes up to closing time. He just presents too many issues spacing-wise (and a penchant sometimes for thinking he's the Man down the stretch). I've said for a while, he's a good middle innings pitcher but I wouldn't start him or close games with him.

4. But right now, since Reaves/Lonnie/AD are out, Ham may have no choice but to close with Russ. Hasn't been so great IMO but who else is Ham closing with all these injuries?

I don't think the Lakers will trade Russ b/c teams want 2 FRPs for him, and the Lakers can effectively cost-save by letting his contract expire. But if we get say Burks/Bojan in a trade somehow, I wouldn't close games with Russ. But for now, we have no other options.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:01 pm    Post subject:

It's gonna be tough to trade him because his replacements suck. But we gotta get rid of this guy. I can't stand his lack of IQ.

And horrible double on Barnes and fouling him late game for an and-1. So frustrating. But at least you're having fun!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:23 pm    Post subject:

No one has worst post game interviews than Russ.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:27 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
It's gonna be tough to trade him because his replacements suck. But we gotta get rid of this guy. I can't stand his lack of IQ.

And horrible double on Barnes and fouling him late game for an and-1. So frustrating. But at least you're having fun!


I'd straight up do a Conley for Brodie swap if t could. Dont know if the salaries work but less is more. And Conley is a much more stabilizing factor as a PG.

I've grown to accept Brodie for what he is. Doesn't make it any less difficult to watch him do crap like what he did this game.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:33 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
It's gonna be tough to trade him because his replacements suck. But we gotta get rid of this guy. I can't stand his lack of IQ.

And horrible double on Barnes and fouling him late game for an and-1. So frustrating. But at least you're having fun!


It’s at least somewhat joyful that he isn’t as much of a disaster on the court that he was last year, this year he’s playing much better
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:38 pm    Post subject:

Guy is a losing player. Don’t care about his fake numbers. Guy sucks. He made so many terrible plays in the 4th quarter on both ends. Stat padding loser.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:47 am    Post subject:

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LAKESHOWLAVINE
@im_disgusted

In the last 5 minutes of the 4th + OT, with a -5/+5 score margin the Lakers have a 103 ortg (-20.87 net rtg) with Westbrook and LeBron on. With Westbrook off that jumps to 127.27 (+4.20 net rtg) with the same parameters. Stop closing with him.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:43 am    Post subject:

Solid game.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 8:47 am    Post subject:

lakers4life78 wrote:
Guy is a losing player. Don’t care about his fake numbers. Guy sucks. He made so many terrible plays in the 4th quarter on both ends. Stat padding loser.


He had fun though. Can’t put a price on that. I mean, the price was $91M and our league-best defense. But still. Fun.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 6:40 am    Post subject:

What's sad is that when you look at the Wizards and what Kuz is giving them, Kuz was like our 6th or 7th best player. Maybe 5th, at best. We wouldn't even get Kuz back, or a Kuz level player for WB. There's a lot of things into play with that statement, it's the salary WB makes. The situations. If they both made the same money, probably you could see a swap of that level. It just shows you how bad that trade was for us. Forget 4 assets. We wouldn't even get 1 asset back for WB.

And yet we have people defending WB to this day. I don't have a problem with him personally. I was neither his biggest fan or someone who hated him before he became a Laker. But the trade itself crippled the Lakers. It's laughable that we're still trying to act as if this trade can work, or that the solution is just changing the head coach or role players.

Individually as a go to guy on a 2nd unit, I probably lean towards Westbrook over Kuz. To I respect what WB can bring, even now. But that doesn't mean the trade in itself wasn't the worst in Lakers history and a move that should have meant Pelinka got replaced, instead of others.

If his name wasn't Westbrook and he didn't have MVP/all-stars under his resume, I highly doubt the coach would force him to play with Lebron in closing lineups. That is also the main problem with this. His value (at best) is like Rondo in 2019-20. But we can't use him the way Rondo was used. We can't sit him for multiple reasons like we used to Rondo (when Rondo was off or not making an impact). 1) He makes 47M and is still seen as a star from the organization. 2) Pelinka does not want Lebron at PG full time 3) The others IE role guys would need to be good enough to defend and shoot at the 2/1. We don't have those others, outside of maybe Reaves and Dennis when they get going.

Personally, I would have rolled with Bryant/AD/Reaves/Dennis/Bron lineup on offense, with defensively it being Dennis taking the quicker 1s and AD helping out on the perimeter. I would have cut Westbrook, and been willing to use the full MLE to get in better talent than Walker. It seems clear the #1 reason we even changed coaches and system was because Westbrook needed to come off the bench, something he wouldn't do unless there was a coach he respected/trusted (like he does with Ham). Since we're not willing to give up draft picks to move Westbrook (which is fine by me) we should have been open to stretching him in the offseason to get the full MLE and build a balanced roster. Really, we're not that bad. We have Lebron, AD and some decent pieces. It's the roster that's really unbalanced. We just seemed to have too much of an agenda to prove that the Westbrook trade can work. It should be way beyond that, about building the most balanced roster around Bron/AD.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 7:09 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
What's sad is that when you look at the Wizards and what Kuz is giving them, Kuz was like our 6th or 7th best player. Maybe 5th, at best. We wouldn't even get Kuz back, or a Kuz level player for WB. There's a lot of things into play with that statement, it's the salary WB makes. The situations. If they both made the same money, probably you could see a swap of that level. It just shows you how bad that trade was for us. Forget 4 assets. We wouldn't even get 1 asset back for WB.

And yet we have people defending WB to this day. I don't have a problem with him personally. I was neither his biggest fan or someone who hated him before he became a Laker. But the trade itself crippled the Lakers. It's laughable that we're still trying to act as if this trade can work, or that the solution is just changing the head coach or role players.

Individually as a go to guy on a 2nd unit, I probably lean towards Westbrook over Kuz. To I respect what WB can bring, even now. But that doesn't mean the trade in itself wasn't the worst in Lakers history and a move that should have meant Pelinka got replaced, instead of others.

If his name wasn't Westbrook and he didn't have MVP/all-stars under his resume, I highly doubt the coach would force him to play with Lebron in closing lineups. That is also the main problem with this. His value (at best) is like Rondo in 2019-20. But we can't use him the way Rondo was used. We can't sit him for multiple reasons like we used to Rondo (when Rondo was off or not making an impact). 1) He makes 47M and is still seen as a star from the organization. 2) Pelinka does not want Lebron at PG full time 3) The others IE role guys would need to be good enough to defend and shoot at the 2/1. We don't have those others, outside of maybe Reaves and Dennis when they get going.

Personally, I would have rolled with Bryant/AD/Reaves/Dennis/Bron lineup on offense, with defensively it being Dennis taking the quicker 1s and AD helping out on the perimeter. I would have cut Westbrook, and been willing to use the full MLE to get in better talent than Walker. It seems clear the #1 reason we even changed coaches and system was because Westbrook needed to come off the bench, something he wouldn't do unless there was a coach he respected/trusted (like he does with Ham). Since we're not willing to give up draft picks to move Westbrook (which is fine by me) we should have been open to stretching him in the offseason to get the full MLE and build a balanced roster. Really, we're not that bad. We have Lebron, AD and some decent pieces. It's the roster that's really unbalanced. We just seemed to have too much of an agenda to prove that the Westbrook trade can work. It should be way beyond that, about building the most balanced roster around Bron/AD.

This is silly
Bron
Ad
Kuz
he was more valuable than most everyone else. Obviously, our MVP during champ year was bubble but to imply Kuz was at best our 5th best player is a joke. But I get the agenda.
We all agree lets trade russ. I am excited to see how much of a contender we become when he's gone.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:32 am    Post subject:

I fail to see what your point is about Kuz, during the title run, he was an off the bench big wing/small ball big. His role was to give the 2nd unit some points and then defend. During the season, when AD would sit out, he would be valuable as a fill in as he could score 20+ like he has with Washington.

But he wasn't our 3rd best player, I would rate players like KCP, Danny Green, Caruso all more important in the title run than Kuz. Kuz has a lot of talent, but he's a role player on a contender.

Washington isn't very good.

The year prior to trade

Dennis 15/6
Kuz 13ppg
Trez 13ppg
KCP 10 ppg
Caruso 6.5 ppg

Kuz at least the year before the trade would not be in my opinion better than the team's 5th or 6th most valuable player. We are not talking just scoring here overall value. A player who can defend, shoot, is a lot more valuable to a team that has Lebron James than Kuz, even if Kuz is a talented scorer (who did improve his defense in 19-20, 20-21).

The point remains, you need off the ball scorers and big long athletic defenders around Lebron to win. There's no other way.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:42 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
But he wasn't our 3rd best player, I would rate players like KCP, Danny Green, Caruso all more important in the title run than Kuz. Kuz has a lot of talent, but he's a role player on a contender.

Washington isn't very good.


The metrics agree with you. Kuzma's production in '20 was actually at the replacement level.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:46 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
But he wasn't our 3rd best player, I would rate players like KCP, Danny Green, Caruso all more important in the title run than Kuz. Kuz has a lot of talent, but he's a role player on a contender.

Washington isn't very good.


The metrics agree with you. Kuzma's production in '20 was actually at the replacement level.


It didn't get any better in the 2021 playoffs either. That was likely a factor in him being moved.

Kuzma's career playoff numbers:

9.1 points (40.1% fg, 28.3% 3p), 3.3 rebounds, 0.9 assists, 0.3 steals, 0.3 blocks in 22.7 minutes over 27 games
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:58 am    Post subject:

J.C. Smith wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
But he wasn't our 3rd best player, I would rate players like KCP, Danny Green, Caruso all more important in the title run than Kuz. Kuz has a lot of talent, but he's a role player on a contender.

Washington isn't very good.


The metrics agree with you. Kuzma's production in '20 was actually at the replacement level.


It didn't get any better in the 2021 playoffs either. That was likely a factor in him being moved.

Kuzma's career playoff numbers:

9.1 points (40.1% fg, 28.3% 3p), 3.3 rebounds, 0.9 assists, 0.3 steals, 0.3 blocks in 22.7 minutes over 27 games

I had no issue with moving some of our parts. I understand/understood their limitations. Moving some our pieces, to upgrade, I guess you take that chance. Even though I didn't like losing Danny Green at the time, as I felt he was a key glue guy for the starters, I understood the talent swap there with Dennis. You're losing Danny, getting Dennis.

When you start doing 4 for 1 trades, like we did with WB, you better have some quality replacements for the 3 other guys. Like if the deal was straight up Kuz, 1 draft pick for a WB, you do that deal. Or you could even justify in the interim Kuz, 2 picks for WB. Because in the Lebron/AD era you're losing only Kuz, whose your 5th or so best player. That's the issue here, not so much that we traded for Westbrook, or that we have a personal issue with Westbrook.

To me, all this is GM'ing. The GM thinks the coach can speak into existence defense, and thought the replacement dudes can just learn new skills they never showed beforehand. Even so, we could have made a Kuz/2 FRPs for Westbrook swap, and I still think the Westbrook/Bron/AD team lays an egg in the playoffs. You just can't win a ring with those 3 as your best 3 players, IMO. But, had we made a more reasonable replacement plan (Or a better WB trade where we lost less players), we probably would be sitting in the middle of the West, around 4-6 range, IMO. So I don't fault Westbrook from that perspective, the lack of depth around him, Bron etc is an issue that Pelinka brought on himself. AD and Bron's constant injuries/needs also hurt team continuity and the development of team chemistry of the big 3. Instead of playing a lot of games together, at this stage of their careers AD/Bron just can't with Westbrook to develop chemistry. All of this in mind, even less likely you ever could have sustained a quality set up with the big 3 concept.

Hoping Pelinka learns and refrains from a big 3 pursuit in the summer. However I doubt he can refrain from offering Harden, Kyrie, Dray massive deals.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:33 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
When you start doing 4 for 1 trades, like we did with WB, you better have some quality replacements for the 3 other guys. Like if the deal was straight up Kuz, 1 draft pick for a WB, you do that deal. Or you could even justify in the interim Kuz, 2 picks for WB. Because in the Lebron/AD era you're losing only Kuz, whose your 5th or so best player. That's the issue here, not so much that we traded for Westbrook, or that we have a personal issue with Westbrook.


To be clear, I agree with most everything you said. The lack of depth, wings, and shooting that is killing them.

I'm not very high on Kuzma. I'd be disappointed if they gave up a pick to bring him back and give him the big deal he's hoping for. I assumed coming off the playoffs and the role players shooting so poorly, that the team was going to be shaken up, and that Kuz would likely be the first guy out of town (since he had some value). They just choose their trade target poorly.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:33 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:


Washington isn't very good.



and the bulls are almost as bad with a far better team. We can gloss AC all we want but he certainly hasn't infused "winning" with the bulls.

Kuz size and d was strong for our bubble title. Didn't most here want to strangle Green? Other than a few sequences wasn't the crowd complaining about KCP going through yet another slump? (I love the guy).

Russ carried the wiz to the playoffs when Beal was in and out of the line up. Rob and Co. knew how brittle AD was and how old and how many games bron missed. Thats why they brought Russ in. They saw he had the ability to carry a group. Unfortunately for russ he has some pretty unspectacular players around him. On top of that, the best player on the team has broken down again.

We need to move him. Cant wait. That way we will find someone new to point the finger at. That's why people want Kuz back.
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Last edited by Halflife on Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:15 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
J.C. Smith wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
But he wasn't our 3rd best player, I would rate players like KCP, Danny Green, Caruso all more important in the title run than Kuz. Kuz has a lot of talent, but he's a role player on a contender.

Washington isn't very good.


The metrics agree with you. Kuzma's production in '20 was actually at the replacement level.


It didn't get any better in the 2021 playoffs either. That was likely a factor in him being moved.

Kuzma's career playoff numbers:

9.1 points (40.1% fg, 28.3% 3p), 3.3 rebounds, 0.9 assists, 0.3 steals, 0.3 blocks in 22.7 minutes over 27 games

I had no issue with moving some of our parts. I understand/understood their limitations. Moving some our pieces, to upgrade, I guess you take that chance. Even though I didn't like losing Danny Green at the time, as I felt he was a key glue guy for the starters, I understood the talent swap there with Dennis. You're losing Danny, getting Dennis.

When you start doing 4 for 1 trades, like we did with WB, you better have some quality replacements for the 3 other guys. Like if the deal was straight up Kuz, 1 draft pick for a WB, you do that deal. Or you could even justify in the interim Kuz, 2 picks for WB. Because in the Lebron/AD era you're losing only Kuz, whose your 5th or so best player. That's the issue here, not so much that we traded for Westbrook, or that we have a personal issue with Westbrook.

To me, all this is GM'ing. The GM thinks the coach can speak into existence defense, and thought the replacement dudes can just learn new skills they never showed beforehand. Even so, we could have made a Kuz/2 FRPs for Westbrook swap, and I still think the Westbrook/Bron/AD team lays an egg in the playoffs. You just can't win a ring with those 3 as your best 3 players, IMO. But, had we made a more reasonable replacement plan (Or a better WB trade where we lost less players), we probably would be sitting in the middle of the West, around 4-6 range, IMO. So I don't fault Westbrook from that perspective, the lack of depth around him, Bron etc is an issue that Pelinka brought on himself. AD and Bron's constant injuries/needs also hurt team continuity and the development of team chemistry of the big 3. Instead of playing a lot of games together, at this stage of their careers AD/Bron just can't with Westbrook to develop chemistry. All of this in mind, even less likely you ever could have sustained a quality set up with the big 3 concept.

Hoping Pelinka learns and refrains from a big 3 pursuit in the summer. However I doubt he can refrain from offering Harden, Kyrie, Dray massive deals.


Luckily Pelinka doesn’t have massive cap space to offer.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:54 pm    Post subject:

ay if we're getting the standard "second half of season" Westbrook this year...
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:55 pm    Post subject:

levon wrote:
ay if we're getting the standard "second half of season" Westbrook this year...

If you check his stats for December and January, that’s about the best you can hope for at this point, he has been good to great
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:00 pm    Post subject:

Smarter use of WB today down the stretch. He had one “what the hell are you doing!?” possession late, but other than that was moving off ball and working on defense.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:01 pm    Post subject:

Great game.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:03 pm    Post subject:

I’m reading some of these posts in disbelief. Do we not remember how inefficient and out of control Kuz was?

If we’re going to make a big splash with the Wizards, I hope it’s Bradley Beal.
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