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danzag
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 11:42 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:

<snip>

The ceiling of last year’s roster was a play in game and a loss to the Suns in the first round. We all saw that happen.


I calculate "ceiling" with the starters uninjured - let alone one/both of the 2 all-stars injured. With Lebron/AD healthy that team's ceiling was higher than a 1st round exit (I agree it was likely not a championship team).

I can't think of a star-based team that's built to go deep into the playoffs without 1 or both of their stars, so by your definition pretty much every team's ceiling is a playoff loss.


It's just VLF. Always ignore it.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 11:45 am    Post subject:

I mean, even with AD/LBJ missing more games (% wise of the season as it was a 72 game season last year), we won at 58%. That's 48 wins in today's West. But once we traded for Russ and let AC go, we plummeted.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 11:51 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
The ceiling of this year's team was dramatically reduced when:

OUT: KCP/Kuz/Trezz/22nd pick
IN: Russ.

Then AC was not signed too.


Trezz seemed by all means out whether Russ was brought in or not.

I think Out should also contain Schroeder, Drummond, & Gasol as all played big mins in Phoenix series. Tenure also played a part in the reduced ceiling as a lot of the other guys you mentioned were here for multiple years.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:03 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The Westbrook trade was a bad trade but it turned a first round playoff loser into a team that didn’t make the playoffs.


Great take.


Did we hang a banner for last season's play-in tournament championship? I'm not sure why last season's team is being used as a benchmark. Set the bar at first round exit. Got as far as Russell's team in DC.

Using my imagination https://imgur.com/Kq5bvc0
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:18 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The Westbrook trade was a bad trade but it turned a first round playoff loser into a team that didn’t make the playoffs.


Great take.


Did we hang a banner for last season's play-in tournament championship? I'm not sure why last season's team is being used as a benchmark. Set the bar at first round exit. Got as far as Russell's team in DC.

Using my imagination https://imgur.com/Kq5bvc0


Vogel really screwed the porch on the big rotation with that team. Pissed off all 3 of our centers so that none of them wanted to return.

Also, can’t skip DS having 0 points in game 4. (Could be 3 or 5) can’t remember exactly which game it was.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:35 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote:
JUST-MING wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
The Westbrook trade was a bad trade but it turned a first round playoff loser into a team that didn’t make the playoffs.


Great take.


Did we hang a banner for last season's play-in tournament championship? I'm not sure why last season's team is being used as a benchmark. Set the bar at first round exit. Got as far as Russell's team in DC.


Who is talking about a banner?

This is a Russ thread, and of course you have to compare how we did with and without Russ, b/c the # of games missed by LBJ/AD are comparable. Last season we were able to hold it together; this year we weren't. Biggest change? The trade pieces sent for Russ and the loss of depth on this team.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
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AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
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Lakers wins and win%:
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21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:40 pm    Post subject:

I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 12:53 pm    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.


Sweeteners? Despite having nearly the same contract, the Rox want the Lakers to give THEM a 1st rounder. Heck no.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 1:24 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.


Sweeteners? Despite having nearly the same contract, the Rox want the Lakers to give THEM a 1st rounder. Heck no.


Our logical poster dennis100mtrash suggested us getting KPJ and Wood in the Wall trade I would give up our 2027 1st round if they are open to it.
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2022 3:03 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:

So yeah, the Westbrook trade was a big problem. But there were a lot of other issues.


Sure, but some of those other issues relate back to the Westbrook trade viz. lack of KCP/Kuz/Caruso.
Yes, other issues relate back not to the Westbrook trade but to the mentality behind the Westbrook trade e.g. lack of concern for assets, for a balanced roster, for the modern game viz. size/athleticism at the wing, 2-way players


You get 10 Nerdy Coolness Points for using “viz.” in a post.

You’re right, of course, but in the end both seasons were going to turn on the health and productivity of Lebron and Davis. It’s one thing when you have an unexpected injury like Nunn. It’s another thing when you have an old player and a younger player with an injury history. I’m not blaming anyone for this. It was just a reality both years,

So before the trade, we were good enough to get through the play-in and lose in the first round. You can say that our theoretical ceiling was higher, and that’s true. Our practical ceiling was exactly what we did.
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:31 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:

You’re right, of course, but in the end both seasons were going to turn on the health and productivity of Lebron and Davis. It’s one thing when you have an unexpected injury like Nunn. It’s another thing when you have an old player and a younger player with an injury history. I’m not blaming anyone for this. It was just a reality both years,

So before the trade, we were good enough to get through the play-in and lose in the first round. You can say that our theoretical ceiling was higher, and that’s true. Our practical ceiling was exactly what we did.


What I'm gleaning from this and your other posts is that you think that the path was set well before the LBJ acquisition, LBJ was the first chip to fall, AD the second, Westbrook the third. You seem to suggest that where we are today is an inescapable consequence of that original "path", that the 1 championship, the total dearth of assets, the ill-fits, the washed-up vets, the abysmal cap situation, are mostly (if not entirely) "rest-stops" on that original path. You seem to also imply that better, more professional and thoughtful execution would have only played a lesser role, maybe shifted the time-line of the overall downward trend a little bit; that post-1st-championship non-contention was a fait-accompli.
Did I get your viewpoint right?

If so, then we differ on pretty much one thing, that history was bound to have played out your way: I say that poor execution has so muddled up the timeline that we will never know one way or another. I say that life is not always "fine-grained", it constantly produces random unpredictable opportunities (and disasters), if you position yourself better you may yet "score the goal" (or avoid giving up a goal). The original philosophy may indeed have its limitations but my first focus is on the abysmal execution because it so obfuscates the real potential of the original philosophy.

Now why should I care more about the execution? Well the "fait-accompli" theory provides a convenient crutch to an incompetent management: "It was destined to be a 1-championship run anyways, so hey, we MET expectations, yay! Now this same brain-trust of yours will pivot and execute our new Philosophy B!".
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:35 am    Post subject:

An interesting trade idea that I saw somewhere, how about Russ/2nds for Porky/KCP?

Seems Russ was happy on the Wiz, small market, no one cares about them, and he can play "Russ ball."

Porky is owed 33m next year, and 36m in 23/24 (player option). This would allow the Wiz, should Beal not extend, to completely clear their cap books for 2023 and rebuild.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:36 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
An interesting trade idea that I saw somewhere, how about Russ/2nds for Porky/KCP?

Seems Russ was happy on the Wiz, small market, no one cares about them, and he can play "Russ ball."

Porky is owed 33m next year, and 36m in 23/24 (player option). This would allow the Wiz, should Beal not extend, to completely clear their cap books for 2023 and rebuild.


Porky and AD? Can that work, similar game
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:46 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
An interesting trade idea that I saw somewhere, how about Russ/2nds for Porky/KCP?

Seems Russ was happy on the Wiz, small market, no one cares about them, and he can play "Russ ball."

Porky is owed 33m next year, and 36m in 23/24 (player option). This would allow the Wiz, should Beal not extend, to completely clear their cap books for 2023 and rebuild.


Porky and AD? Can that work, similar game


I mean we may only get a combined 100 games out of both of them...

But yes, it would work as Porky is a career 35% 3 point shooter. Not great, but for a big, enough to stretch the floor.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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lakersfan8
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 5:49 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
An interesting trade idea that I saw somewhere, how about Russ/2nds for Porky/KCP?

Seems Russ was happy on the Wiz, small market, no one cares about them, and he can play "Russ ball."

Porky is owed 33m next year, and 36m in 23/24 (player option). This would allow the Wiz, should Beal not extend, to completely clear their cap books for 2023 and rebuild.


Porky and AD? Can that work, similar game

I think they can work together pretty well. Porky is the better shooter so not that similar.

AD/Porky/LBJ/AR/Monk
The lineup can make some noise in the playoff IF the stars are healthy
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 6:08 am    Post subject:

This trade only works if the Wiz want a completely clear cap sheet for 2023. And I think there's a good chance they'd rather have that then Porky on the books that year. Jokic likely signs that supermax soon so 2023 FA goes up in flames. And no way do I want the Lakers to sign a then-30 year old Beal either to a 4 year max deal.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:54 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.


The Rockets don’t want Westbrook, without a pick or two they aren’t interested.
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:56 am    Post subject:

governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
An interesting trade idea that I saw somewhere, how about Russ/2nds for Porky/KCP?

Seems Russ was happy on the Wiz, small market, no one cares about them, and he can play "Russ ball."

Porky is owed 33m next year, and 36m in 23/24 (player option). This would allow the Wiz, should Beal not extend, to completely clear their cap books for 2023 and rebuild.


Porky and AD? Can that work, similar game


Both look dapper sitting on the bench in street clothes. We need to learn from the past.
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 7:59 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.


The Rockets don’t want Westbrook, without a pick or two they aren’t interested.


Both contract Are same price and end at the same time. But we have to add picks to get a guy that hasn’t played in 2 years 😂
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 8:04 am    Post subject:

Dennis100mtrash wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.


The Rockets don’t want Westbrook, without a pick or two they aren’t interested.


Both contract Are same price and end at the same time. But we have to add picks to get a guy that hasn’t played in 2 years 😂


Yes, because they don’t want your guy. That’s just the illogical move I would expect from Pelinka.
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 8:24 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Dennis100mtrash wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.


The Rockets don’t want Westbrook, without a pick or two they aren’t interested.


Both contract Are same price and end at the same time. But we have to add picks to get a guy that hasn’t played in 2 years 😂


Yes, because they don’t want your guy. That’s just the illogical move I would expect from Pelinka.


Who said we want their guy? You trust every news that comes out
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 8:58 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Aeneas Hunter wrote:

You’re right, of course, but in the end both seasons were going to turn on the health and productivity of Lebron and Davis. It’s one thing when you have an unexpected injury like Nunn. It’s another thing when you have an old player and a younger player with an injury history. I’m not blaming anyone for this. It was just a reality both years,

So before the trade, we were good enough to get through the play-in and lose in the first round. You can say that our theoretical ceiling was higher, and that’s true. Our practical ceiling was exactly what we did.


What I'm gleaning from this and your other posts is that you think that the path was set well before the LBJ acquisition, LBJ was the first chip to fall, AD the second, Westbrook the third. You seem to suggest that where we are today is an inescapable consequence of that original "path", that the 1 championship, the total dearth of assets, the ill-fits, the washed-up vets, the abysmal cap situation, are mostly (if not entirely) "rest-stops" on that original path. You seem to also imply that better, more professional and thoughtful execution would have only played a lesser role, maybe shifted the time-line of the overall downward trend a little bit; that post-1st-championship non-contention was a fait-accompli.
Did I get your viewpoint right?

If so, then we differ on pretty much one thing, that history was bound to have played out your way: I say that poor execution has so muddled up the timeline that we will never know one way or another. I say that life is not always "fine-grained", it constantly produces random unpredictable opportunities (and disasters), if you position yourself better you may yet "score the goal" (or avoid giving up a goal). The original philosophy may indeed have its limitations but my first focus is on the abysmal execution because it so obfuscates the real potential of the original philosophy.

Now why should I care more about the execution? Well the "fait-accompli" theory provides a convenient crutch to an incompetent management: "It was destined to be a 1-championship run anyways, so hey, we MET expectations, yay! Now this same brain-trust of yours will pivot and execute our new Philosophy B!".


That's close, but not quite right. From the beginning, the plan was to get two superstars to play with Lebron. The plan started going off the rails almost from the beginning, when Paul George spurned us. A lot of what you call poor execution is just ongoing efforts to make the plan work. Some of these efforts were ill-conceived. The two biggest were the Westbrook trade (of course) and Magic's attempt to acquire Davis at the trade deadline. Some people forget the second part. At the time, I remember that folks here were aghast that Magic had pretty much offered the kitchen sink to get Davis then and there. We lost any possible ability to negotiate with the Pelicans at that point. Once we put all of our assets on the table, there was no going back. (Disclaimer: This was attributed to Magic at the time, but it may very well have been Pelinka.)

So I don't disagree with you about execution. I don't disagree with you about inevitability. But I do have a problem with people who ignore the fundamental connections between all of the different moves. The Westbrook trade was a logical (if ill-conceived) consequence of the original plan. This does not mean that we were destined to make the trade or that Pelinka had no free will. It means that Pelinka was still pursuing the original plan,
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 9:22 am    Post subject:

Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.

why would Houston do that?
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 9:32 am    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
Inspector Gadget wrote:
I’m at a point if the Rockets were to add sweetners in a Wall trade I would go ahead and accept it, their was talk we almost landed John Wall and Christian Wood at the trade deadline perhaps something like that is re-visited in the summer.

why would Houston do that?


Guaranteed a franchise big in top 3

7'0" C Chet Holmgren, Gonzaga
6'10" PF Jabari Smith, Auburn
6'10" PF Paolo Banchero, Duke

Available at their second pick at #17

6'11" C Jalen Duren, Memphis
7'0" C Mark Williams, Duke
7'1" C Kessler Walker, Auburn


I doubt they have plans to resign 28 year old Christian Wood in 2023
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PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2022 9:38 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
governator wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
An interesting trade idea that I saw somewhere, how about Russ/2nds for Porky/KCP?

Seems Russ was happy on the Wiz, small market, no one cares about them, and he can play "Russ ball."

Porky is owed 33m next year, and 36m in 23/24 (player option). This would allow the Wiz, should Beal not extend, to completely clear their cap books for 2023 and rebuild.


Porky and AD? Can that work, similar game


Both look dapper sitting on the bench in street clothes. We need to learn from the past.


Porky sucks. Soft as Charmin. Brittle like AD. No thanks!!
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