We need this Dwight every game if we’re going to make a title run. He impacts the game the way he dominates in the paint. Hard screens, playing physical, rebounding, defense. We need it.
He’s old. We will get these game sporadically but not consistent
The problem isn’t the age, it’s the fact that Vogel seems to love the idea of starting Jordan instead of Howard, Howard can have these kind of games if he got the minutes but he doesn’t.
No. Its age. he's old, has had gnarly back injuries throughout career. Vogel feels he is better served coming off bench.
That's false...has nothing to do with his age although he's obviously not as athletic as he once was. Vogel prefers Dwight to match up against the other teams second unit and provide energy off the bench....even though he's older he's still 10x better than DJ and it's not even close.,
Why is everyone afraid to acknowledge he’s old. Not in civilian terms just basketball. I love the guy, but he can barely dunk, gets beat a lot. This isn’t about being better than DJ. DJ is a warm body for the 5 spot. Nothing is expected other setting screens and occasional RB. DH iirc didn’t get much if any run for 76 in playoffs last year. If we plan on doing so 10 minutes per game during the regular season should be max. Look at Bron. Dude is at point where we don’t even know when he will play. Imho that’s to maximize his rest post season.
There's a reason why some guys are "bench" players. That isn't meant in a demeaning way, just that there is something about said players which makes them better/more effective coming off the bench.
Some reasons for this can be:
1) their "game" does not mesh well with the group starting the games.
2) there's a big deficiency somewhere in their on-court contribution (scoring, defense, stamina, commits too many fouls, etc)
3) they're a "really good" player who can dominate against second units, but are not an elite, all-star talent that can do that while playing "starter" minutes.
At this point of Dwight's career (years/age/injuries), I think #2 and #3 are very fitting descriptions for him. Again, not a knock, just being realistic with my expectations from him when he's 35 years old, multiple significant injuries, and also playing in his 18th season.
If we had TWO Dwight's, sure, I'd LOVE for him to start. But the fact of the matter is Dwight has shown he can have a strong impact for us coming off the bench. Whatever we would gain from Dwight starting would result in a much greater dropoff in what DeAndre provides in a bench role because he'd likely be playing more with Melo/Rondo/Reaves instead of Bron/Westbrook/AD.
Okay...lets go with your theory. There's no reason he should be playing only 13-14 minutes...at them minimum it should be 20-24. He does everything better than DJ. DJ should be out of the rotation or get 10-12 minutes tops.
why even play that net negative DeAndre at all????? Just give Dwight 25+ minutes and use Davis at Center for the other minutes. Jordan should stay glued to the bench period.
We need this Dwight every game if we’re going to make a title run. He impacts the game the way he dominates in the paint. Hard screens, playing physical, rebounding, defense. We need it.
He’s old. We will get these game sporadically but not consistent
The problem isn’t the age, it’s the fact that Vogel seems to love the idea of starting Jordan instead of Howard, Howard can have these kind of games if he got the minutes but he doesn’t.
No. Its age. he's old, has had gnarly back injuries throughout career. Vogel feels he is better served coming off bench.
That's false...has nothing to do with his age although he's obviously not as athletic as he once was. Vogel prefers Dwight to match up against the other teams second unit and provide energy off the bench....even though he's older he's still 10x better than DJ and it's not even close.,
Why is everyone afraid to acknowledge he’s old. Not in civilian terms just basketball. I love the guy, but he can barely dunk, gets beat a lot. This isn’t about being better than DJ. DJ is a warm body for the 5 spot. Nothing is expected other setting screens and occasional RB. DH iirc didn’t get much if any run for 76 in playoffs last year. If we plan on doing so 10 minutes per game during the regular season should be max. Look at Bron. Dude is at point where we don’t even know when he will play. Imho that’s to maximize his rest post season.
DJ is a net negative who shouldnt be playing at all. 0 minutes for him is what SHOULD be happening.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35750 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 1:36 pm Post subject:
I wonder why we found it necessary to get rid of Javale McGee when the McGee/Dwight tandem worked so well. Instead we have a poor man’s Javale McGee in DeAndre Jordan. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
I could be wrong but I think coach is reluctant to start DH are for these simple reasons:
His age- he's not the same as 2-3 years ago. The primary difference is the inability to play long, physically demanding/grueling minutes against the elite bigs in the league. He's best in spurts, especially when we need to play sustained defense.
His style of play- DH gives out as much, if not more punishment than playing 40plus minutes will allow. He will foul out before the 4th quarter if the coach were to allow DH's bruising style of play to go unchecked or unmanaged.
The main thing with the DH/DAJ combo is the Lakers made a serious mistake allowing JeVale McGee get away. We had a formidable defensive frontline when we had McGee or DH played along side Davis.
Jordan's not the same defensive presence. As a matter of fact his acquistion is proof we should have kept McGee.
I wonder why we found it necessary to get rid of Javale McGee when the McGee/Dwight tandem worked so well. Instead we have a poor man’s Javale McGee in DeAndre Jordan.
Omg CandyCanes I was posting the same da_n thing as you wrote it. We made a big mistake letting McGee go. Just like we did when we sent Zubac to the other team. Really, really short-sighted moves.
We need this Dwight every game if we’re going to make a title run. He impacts the game the way he dominates in the paint. Hard screens, playing physical, rebounding, defense. We need it.
He’s old. We will get these game sporadically but not consistent
The problem isn’t the age, it’s the fact that Vogel seems to love the idea of starting Jordan instead of Howard, Howard can have these kind of games if he got the minutes but he doesn’t.
No. Its age. he's old, has had gnarly back injuries throughout career. Vogel feels he is better served coming off bench.
That's false...has nothing to do with his age although he's obviously not as athletic as he once was. Vogel prefers Dwight to match up against the other teams second unit and provide energy off the bench....even though he's older he's still 10x better than DJ and it's not even close.,
Why is everyone afraid to acknowledge he’s old. Not in civilian terms just basketball. I love the guy, but he can barely dunk, gets beat a lot. This isn’t about being better than DJ. DJ is a warm body for the 5 spot. Nothing is expected other setting screens and occasional RB. DH iirc didn’t get much if any run for 76 in playoffs last year. If we plan on doing so 10 minutes per game during the regular season should be max. Look at Bron. Dude is at point where we don’t even know when he will play. Imho that’s to maximize his rest post season.
Barely dunk?...I think you're thinking of Gasol...Dwight is still a very good defender...can still block shots and intimidate and can definitely play 20 minutes a game. But it's all good... agree to disagree.
I could be wrong but I think coach is reluctant to start DH are for these simple reasons:
His age- he's not the same as 2-3 years ago. The primary difference is the inability to play long, physically demanding/grueling minutes against the elite bigs in the league. He's best in spurts, especially when we need to play sustained defense.
His style of play- DH gives out as much, if not more punishment than playing 40plus minutes will allow. He will foul out before the 4th quarter if the coach were to allow DH's bruising style of play to go unchecked or unmanaged.
The main thing with the DH/DAJ combo is the Lakers made a serious mistake allowing JeVale McGee get away. We had a formidable defensive frontline when we had McGee or DH played along side Davis.
Jordan's not the same defensive presence. As a matter of fact his acquistion is proof we should have kept McGee.
We need this Dwight every game if we’re going to make a title run. He impacts the game the way he dominates in the paint. Hard screens, playing physical, rebounding, defense. We need it.
He’s old. We will get these game sporadically but not consistent
The problem isn’t the age, it’s the fact that Vogel seems to love the idea of starting Jordan instead of Howard, Howard can have these kind of games if he got the minutes but he doesn’t.
No. Its age. he's old, has had gnarly back injuries throughout career. Vogel feels he is better served coming off bench.
That's false...has nothing to do with his age although he's obviously not as athletic as he once was. Vogel prefers Dwight to match up against the other teams second unit and provide energy off the bench....even though he's older he's still 10x better than DJ and it's not even close.,
Why is everyone afraid to acknowledge he’s old. Not in civilian terms just basketball. I love the guy, but he can barely dunk, gets beat a lot. This isn’t about being better than DJ. DJ is a warm body for the 5 spot. Nothing is expected other setting screens and occasional RB. DH iirc didn’t get much if any run for 76 in playoffs last year. If we plan on doing so 10 minutes per game during the regular season should be max. Look at Bron. Dude is at point where we don’t even know when he will play. Imho that’s to maximize his rest post season.
Barely dunk?...I think you're thinking of Gasol...Dwight is still a very good defender...can still block shots and intimidate and can definitely play 20 minutes a game. But it's all good... agree to disagree.
He passes up a lot of dunks, but I agree, he can defend…..for 10-12 minutes a game.
There's a reason why some guys are "bench" players. That isn't meant in a demeaning way, just that there is something about said players which makes them better/more effective coming off the bench.
Some reasons for this can be:
1) their "game" does not mesh well with the group starting the games.
2) there's a big deficiency somewhere in their on-court contribution (scoring, defense, stamina, commits too many fouls, etc)
3) they're a "really good" player who can dominate against second units, but are not an elite, all-star talent that can do that while playing "starter" minutes.
At this point of Dwight's career (years/age/injuries), I think #2 and #3 are very fitting descriptions for him. Again, not a knock, just being realistic with my expectations from him when he's 35 years old, multiple significant injuries, and also playing in his 18th season.
If we had TWO Dwight's, sure, I'd LOVE for him to start. But the fact of the matter is Dwight has shown he can have a strong impact for us coming off the bench. Whatever we would gain from Dwight starting would result in a much greater dropoff in what DeAndre provides in a bench role because he'd likely be playing more with Melo/Rondo/Reaves instead of Bron/Westbrook/AD.
Okay...lets go with your theory. There's no reason he should be playing only 13-14 minutes...at them minimum it should be 20-24. He does everything better than DJ. DJ should be out of the rotation or get 10-12 minutes tops.
why even play that net negative DeAndre at all????? Just give Dwight 25+ minutes and use Davis at Center for the other minutes. Jordan should stay glued to the bench period.
Sounds simple, but unfortunately it's not that simple. We need DAJ's fouls. We need his taking up spaces. And we need him to give us short minutes. In short, we needed a bridge between Davis & his backups. One backup is not enough.
With one backup, we'll have too many areas overlooked like the matchups for that particular game. What if it's a bad matchup for DH? Do we play Davis for longer periods of time at the 5?
No, we use DAJ as a filler until we're not too concerned with Davis' time at the 5. It's strategy like this all the time for coach Vogel.
There's a reason why some guys are "bench" players. That isn't meant in a demeaning way, just that there is something about said players which makes them better/more effective coming off the bench.
Some reasons for this can be:
1) their "game" does not mesh well with the group starting the games.
2) there's a big deficiency somewhere in their on-court contribution (scoring, defense, stamina, commits too many fouls, etc)
3) they're a "really good" player who can dominate against second units, but are not an elite, all-star talent that can do that while playing "starter" minutes.
At this point of Dwight's career (years/age/injuries), I think #2 and #3 are very fitting descriptions for him. Again, not a knock, just being realistic with my expectations from him when he's 35 years old, multiple significant injuries, and also playing in his 18th season.
If we had TWO Dwight's, sure, I'd LOVE for him to start. But the fact of the matter is Dwight has shown he can have a strong impact for us coming off the bench. Whatever we would gain from Dwight starting would result in a much greater dropoff in what DeAndre provides in a bench role because he'd likely be playing more with Melo/Rondo/Reaves instead of Bron/Westbrook/AD.
Okay...lets go with your theory. There's no reason he should be playing only 13-14 minutes...at them minimum it should be 20-24. He does everything better than DJ. DJ should be out of the rotation or get 10-12 minutes tops.
why even play that net negative DeAndre at all????? Just give Dwight 25+ minutes and use Davis at Center for the other minutes. Jordan should stay glued to the bench period.
Sounds simple, but unfortunately it's not that simple. We need DAJ's fouls. We need his taking up spaces. And we need him to give us short minutes. In short, we needed a bridge between Davis & his backups. One backup is not enough.
With one backup, we'll have too many areas overlooked like the matchups for that particular game. What if it's a bad matchup for DH? Do we play Davis for longer periods of time at the 5?
No, we use DAJ as a filler until we're not too concerned with Davis' time at the 5. It's strategy like this all the time for coach Vogel.
Fouls yes so if we absolutely need a big and our bigs are in foul trouble, then understandable. But barring that, there is no matchup where DAJ is preferable over Dwight. DAJ is inferior in every possible way. He should only get off the bench when someone is in foul trouble.
Joined: 07 May 2014 Posts: 13811 Location: Boulder ;)
Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:18 pm Post subject:
We got an odd coach... so many different lineups confusing Everyone.. How do you have a Dwight Howard and 1st not resign him for pennies, and 2nnd tell him he might not be playing tonight..
Vogel is going to mess with this lineup until after all-star break.. nothing set no full roster etc..
We got an odd coach... so many different lineups confusing Everyone.. How do you have a Dwight Howard and 1st not resign him for pennies, and 2nnd tell him he might not be playing tonight..
Vogel is going to mess with this lineup until after all-star break.. nothing set no full roster etc..
one thing is clear. Vogel communicates well and is transparent with players.
There's a reason why some guys are "bench" players. That isn't meant in a demeaning way, just that there is something about said players which makes them better/more effective coming off the bench.
Some reasons for this can be:
1) their "game" does not mesh well with the group starting the games.
2) there's a big deficiency somewhere in their on-court contribution (scoring, defense, stamina, commits too many fouls, etc)
3) they're a "really good" player who can dominate against second units, but are not an elite, all-star talent that can do that while playing "starter" minutes.
At this point of Dwight's career (years/age/injuries), I think #2 and #3 are very fitting descriptions for him. Again, not a knock, just being realistic with my expectations from him when he's 35 years old, multiple significant injuries, and also playing in his 18th season.
If we had TWO Dwight's, sure, I'd LOVE for him to start. But the fact of the matter is Dwight has shown he can have a strong impact for us coming off the bench. Whatever we would gain from Dwight starting would result in a much greater dropoff in what DeAndre provides in a bench role because he'd likely be playing more with Melo/Rondo/Reaves instead of Bron/Westbrook/AD.
Okay...lets go with your theory. There's no reason he should be playing only 13-14 minutes...at them minimum it should be 20-24. He does everything better than DJ. DJ should be out of the rotation or get 10-12 minutes tops.
why even play that net negative DeAndre at all????? Just give Dwight 25+ minutes and use Davis at Center for the other minutes. Jordan should stay glued to the bench period.
Sounds simple, but unfortunately it's not that simple. We need DAJ's fouls. We need his taking up spaces. And we need him to give us short minutes. In short, we needed a bridge between Davis & his backups. One backup is not enough.
With one backup, we'll have too many areas overlooked like the matchups for that particular game. What if it's a bad matchup for DH? Do we play Davis for longer periods of time at the 5?
No, we use DAJ as a filler until we're not too concerned with Davis' time at the 5. It's strategy like this all the time for coach Vogel.
Fouls yes so if we absolutely need a big and our bigs are in foul trouble, then understandable. But barring that, there is no matchup where DAJ is preferable over Dwight. DAJ is inferior in every possible way. He should only get off the bench when someone is in foul trouble.
Dwight just showed DJ how playing with effort on defense can compliment AD and get you more playing time. If DJ doesn’t change his performance on the defensive end, he should be a third-stringer. Id start AD at the 5 with Dwight as the main backup.
I could be wrong but I think coach is reluctant to start DH are for these simple reasons:
His age- he's not the same as 2-3 years ago. The primary difference is the inability to play long, physically demanding/grueling minutes against the elite bigs in the league. He's best in spurts, especially when we need to play sustained defense.
His style of play- DH gives out as much, if not more punishment than playing 40plus minutes will allow. He will foul out before the 4th quarter if the coach were to allow DH's bruising style of play to go unchecked or unmanaged.
The main thing with the DH/DAJ combo is the Lakers made a serious mistake allowing JeVale McGee get away. We had a formidable defensive frontline when we had McGee or DH played along side Davis.
Jordan's not the same defensive presence. As a matter of fact his acquistion is proof we should have kept McGee.
I will add that people forget Dwight has had back surgery not once but twice in his career, the most recent one in December 2018, 3 years ago. That's why he came here in a non-guaranteed contract. Everybody thought his career was over.
There's a reason why some guys are "bench" players. That isn't meant in a demeaning way, just that there is something about said players which makes them better/more effective coming off the bench.
Some reasons for this can be:
1) their "game" does not mesh well with the group starting the games.
2) there's a big deficiency somewhere in their on-court contribution (scoring, defense, stamina, commits too many fouls, etc)
3) they're a "really good" player who can dominate against second units, but are not an elite, all-star talent that can do that while playing "starter" minutes.
At this point of Dwight's career (years/age/injuries), I think #2 and #3 are very fitting descriptions for him. Again, not a knock, just being realistic with my expectations from him when he's 35 years old, multiple significant injuries, and also playing in his 18th season.
If we had TWO Dwight's, sure, I'd LOVE for him to start. But the fact of the matter is Dwight has shown he can have a strong impact for us coming off the bench. Whatever we would gain from Dwight starting would result in a much greater dropoff in what DeAndre provides in a bench role because he'd likely be playing more with Melo/Rondo/Reaves instead of Bron/Westbrook/AD.
Okay...lets go with your theory. There's no reason he should be playing only 13-14 minutes...at them minimum it should be 20-24. He does everything better than DJ. DJ should be out of the rotation or get 10-12 minutes tops.
why even play that net negative DeAndre at all????? Just give Dwight 25+ minutes and use Davis at Center for the other minutes. Jordan should stay glued to the bench period.
Sounds simple, but unfortunately it's not that simple. We need DAJ's fouls. We need his taking up spaces. And we need him to give us short minutes. In short, we needed a bridge between Davis & his backups. One backup is not enough.
With one backup, we'll have too many areas overlooked like the matchups for that particular game. What if it's a bad matchup for DH? Do we play Davis for longer periods of time at the 5?
No, we use DAJ as a filler until we're not too concerned with Davis' time at the 5. It's strategy like this all the time for coach Vogel.
Fouls yes so if we absolutely need a big and our bigs are in foul trouble, then understandable. But barring that, there is no matchup where DAJ is preferable over Dwight. DAJ is inferior in every possible way. He should only get off the bench when someone is in foul trouble.
Only the blind would disagree with you.
Very well put. Just to be clear...there is absolutely nothing DJ can do that is better than Dwight...nothing. You want to play DJ for fouls...fine...other than that DJ is needed for nothing...barring an injury of course
<snip>
Very well put. Just to be clear...there is absolutely nothing DJ can do that is better than Dwight...nothing. You want to play DJ for fouls...fine...other than that DJ is needed for nothing...barring an injury of course
DJ is playing at the same level and exactly the same way as he played on the Nets. So why is this a surprise? Yet when some posters brought up this same argument in the offseason that "DJ is just a Howard-lite, similar skill-set only worse, why do we need him?", it was soundly rejected or ignored by numerous posters here.
DJ does two things better than Dwight from what I've seen (but this is just the eye test here). When you see him roll he can get higher lobs than Dwight. Dwight has not been as good this year on those lobs. I am not sure what the current verticals of both guys are, but I think DAJ is a longer vertical threat on those lob plays.
Second and it's the same thing. On the 50-50 rebounds, DAJ tends to get higher and the rebound vs Dwight.
Literally everything else Dwight does better, but Dwight has not been the same player as 2 years ago. He's a little less effective at finishing around the rim. He's also less intimidating with his above the rim plays. I would play Dwight more than DAJ, but I think DAJ does bring some added length and vertical spacing than Dwight. Dwight is 6'10 with a 7'5 wingspan. But he's not getting off the ground the same way as 2 years ago (and nowhere near his prime). DAJ is 6'11 with a 7'6 wingspan. I know it doesn't seem much of a difference, but when I see the vertical spacing, and vertical challenging around the rim, I think DAJ is a little better than Dwight at this.
Literally everything else Dwight beats him by miles. Rotations. Physicality. Post presence, post base. Man D. Team D. etc. He's just a better player, always has been. But at this stage in his careeer (and age) I think Dwight struggles with some of the vertical spacing opportunities we want to implement.
DJ does two things better than Dwight from what I've seen (but this is just the eye test here). When you see him roll he can get higher lobs than Dwight. Dwight has not been as good this year on those lobs. I am not sure what the current verticals of both guys are, but I think DAJ is a longer vertical threat on those lob plays.
Second and it's the same thing. On the 50-50 rebounds, DAJ tends to get higher and the rebound vs Dwight.
Literally everything else Dwight does better, but Dwight has not been the same player as 2 years ago. He's a little less effective at finishing around the rim. He's also less intimidating with his above the rim plays. I would play Dwight more than DAJ, but I think DAJ does bring some added length and vertical spacing than Dwight. Dwight is 6'10 with a 7'5 wingspan. But he's not getting off the ground the same way as 2 years ago (and nowhere near his prime). DAJ is 6'11 with a 7'6 wingspan. I know it doesn't seem much of a difference, but when I see the vertical spacing, and vertical challenging around the rim, I think DAJ is a little better than Dwight at this.
Literally everything else Dwight beats him by miles. Rotations. Physicality. Post presence, post base. Man D. Team D. etc. He's just a better player, always has been. But at this stage in his careeer (and age) I think Dwight struggles with some of the vertical spacing opportunities we want to implement.
Good obs Wolf...you're right Dwight is not jumping as high as he did 2 years ago...but it's still high enough to block shots and intimidate...the catching lobs thing that you talked about...the reason is IMO Dwight really works on setting high picks and therefore is not as close to the rim as DJ...DJ is always looking for lobs and does an average job at best at setting the high picks to free up the dribbler or shooter coming off the pick
<snip>
Very well put. Just to be clear...there is absolutely nothing DJ can do that is better than Dwight...nothing. You want to play DJ for fouls...fine...other than that DJ is needed for nothing...barring an injury of course
DJ is playing at the same level and exactly the same way as he played on the Nets. So why is this a surprise? Yet when some posters brought up this same argument in the offseason that "DJ is just a Howard-lite, similar skill-set only worse, why do we need him?", it was soundly rejected or ignored by numerous posters here.
Deandre probably makes people realize that the Lakers should have fought harder to keep Drummond. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk
It's very simple. Put Dwight in the Mcgee role. Mcgee only played like 15 min a game for us. First 5-6 minutes of the quarter. Leave Davis at center for the rest of the quarter. Let Lebron play Center first 4-5 min of second quarter. Then ride out AD or bring dwight back for the final minutes of half.
It's very simple. Put Dwight in the Mcgee role. Mcgee only played like 15 min a game for us. First 5-6 minutes of the quarter. Leave Davis at center for the rest of the quarter. Let Lebron play Center first 4-5 min of second quarter. Then ride out AD or bring dwight back for the final minutes of half.
Works for me....DJ is not needed...I would then bring back Dwight with 5-6 minutes left in the 2nd quarter...otherwise you have fragile AD playing about 40 minutes a game.
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