Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67631 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:39 am Post subject: Question asked on FirstTake
SAS and Michael Irving debate every Monday on FirstTake. This was one of the debates this morning.
Who's the greatest playmaker in sports?
SAS said LeBron James, Michael said Tom Brady. I choose Patrick Mahomes. He makes something out of broken plays. He does it with his arm, legs, presnap defensive reads, goes through his progressions. Patrick does it all. I think he can take his game to another team and make it better. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Shohei Ohtani should be in the discussion. He can pitch and hit at a high level. _________________ Nobody in the NBA can touch the Laker brand, which, like the uniform color, is pure gold.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67631 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:56 am Post subject:
32 wrote:
Shohei Ohtani should be in the discussion. He can pitch and hit at a high level.
You can submit him in others with your explanation as to why. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8330 Location: Santa Monica
Posted: Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:19 pm Post subject:
To me, a playmaker is someone who is adept at not only creating plays for others, but also himself.
In a sense, it can also mean making plays on defense.
I would say LeBron. Brady and Mahomes are not that great at getting first downs themselves (at least not as great as, say, Lamar Jackson or Russell Wilson), and obviously they don't play defense.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:56 am Post subject:
Who has the better legacy— Brady or Michael Jordan? Brady now has one more ring in a sport in which it is more difficult to win. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144462 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 9:21 am Post subject:
Mahomes, he can make plays from nothing and with his varying throw angles, he is able to make passes we don’t see other QBs make. He can change the game with his legs as well. I do like the suggestion of Ohtani, I hadn’t considered him. In the NFL one factor to success is staying healthy. I wouldn’t pick an NBA player over a NFL player due to the physical play in the NFL. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
if you take away deflate-gate, and spying, and the fact that he can hand the ball off and not worry about defense or kicking game-winning FGs, I guess TB is top 3.
Brady, with MJ as a close second. Take a look at the number of repeat NBA championships among players, whether you wish to include the pre Magic-Bird Era is up to your discretion, but to make my point I'll only include the more recent Magic-Bird Era to present:
Most NBA Championships, Magic-Bird and later: 6 (Jordan)
Runners up with 5: Kareem (spanned both eras but legit), Jordan, Pippen, Kobe, Magic, Duncan
I've netted out the second fiddles like Horry, Fish, etc. To me Pippen was essential.
Now look at NFL Championships, Super Bowl Era, after eliminating second fiddles:
Brady, 7
Bradshaw, 4 (beneficiary of insanely loaded teams)
Harris, 4 (it was more of a running game back then)
Montana, 4
This illustrates the vast difference between the ability to win multiple championships in the NBA and the NFL. The window to win a championship in the NFL is far more brief than in the NBA. There is far more parity in terms of talent within the NFL, and of course it is a more corrosive sport.
My point is that Brady has almost twice as many championships as the Montana, or the Bradshaw/Harris tandem. He shows up as clutch, he controls the tempo of the game by moving the chains (something the flashier QBs cannot do as consistently), with coming-from-behind fourth quarter scores and he manages to do it without a household-name second banana. Michael Jordan does not have nearly twice as many championships as the runners-up, and he benefited from having Pippen. And of course, it is easier (relatively speaking) to win multiple championships in the NBA.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67631 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:51 am Post subject:
angrypuppy wrote:
Quote:
Brady, with MJ as a close second. Take a look at the number of repeat NBA championships among players, whether you wish to include the pre Magic-Bird Era is up to your discretion, but to make my point I'll only include the more recent Magic-Bird Era to present:
I didn't include MJ, Magic, Bird, and like because they're not playing now and they weren't in the FirsTake discussion. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:58 am Post subject:
I’d have to take Brady. Yes he had the advantage of that team and system, but as he just proved, he gets it done, and seven in the free agency and cap period in that sport is insane. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67631 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:27 am Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
I’d have to take Brady. Yes he had the advantage of that team and system, but as he just proved, he gets it done, and seven in the free agency and cap period in that sport is insane.
I'd agree if it was about accomplishments. I chose Patrick because he "Makes Plays." When plays break down he "makes plays" that cause the broken play to succeed. The FirstTake debate was not about successful careers it was about making plays. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
I’d have to take Brady. Yes he had the advantage of that team and system, but as he just proved, he gets it done, and seven in the free agency and cap period in that sport is insane.
I'd agree if it was about accomplishments. I chose Patrick because he "Makes Plays." When plays break down he "makes plays" that cause the broken play to succeed. The FirstTake debate was not about successful careers it was about making plays.
Mahomes didn't "make plays" when it was needed during Super Bowl LV. The popular narrative is that he lacked OTs, but that ignores that he's not really a fast-processing pocket passer. Come on, he had some of the best targets in the NFL in Hill, Kelce, Hardman, and Watkins. Those guys plus Clyde Edwards-Helaire can get quickly achieve separation. Even Mahomes mentioned that he might have taken to the hoof too soon.
He's exciting to watch, but don't confuse excitement, arm angles, deep passes and the ability to run with moving the chains and scoring. Brady has made it a career spreading the ball along much lesser receivers. He's a playmaker.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67631 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:32 am Post subject:
angrypuppy wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I’d have to take Brady. Yes he had the advantage of that team and system, but as he just proved, he gets it done, and seven in the free agency and cap period in that sport is insane.
I'd agree if it was about accomplishments. I chose Patrick because he "Makes Plays." When plays break down he "makes plays" that cause the broken play to succeed. The FirstTake debate was not about successful careers it was about making plays.
Mahomes didn't "make plays" when it was needed during Super Bowl LV. The popular narrative is that he lacked OTs, but that ignores that he's not really a fast-processing pocket passer. Come on, he had some of the best targets in the NFL in Hill, Kelce, Hardman, and Watkins. Those guys plus Clyde Edwards-Helaire can get quickly achieve separation. Even Mahomes mentioned that he might have taken to the hoof too soon.
He's exciting to watch, but don't confuse excitement, arm angles, deep passes and the ability to run with moving the chains and scoring. Brady has made it a career spreading the ball along much lesser receivers. He's a playmaker.
Isn't that what playmaking is? I equate moving the chains with ability. Brady has that ability. Brady completes plays, he doesn't make them. When they break down he doesn't have the abilities of a Mahomes.
I guess it comes down to what one thinks a playmaker is. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
I’d have to take Brady. Yes he had the advantage of that team and system, but as he just proved, he gets it done, and seven in the free agency and cap period in that sport is insane.
I'd agree if it was about accomplishments. I chose Patrick because he "Makes Plays." When plays break down he "makes plays" that cause the broken play to succeed. The FirstTake debate was not about successful careers it was about making plays.
Mahomes didn't "make plays" when it was needed during Super Bowl LV. The popular narrative is that he lacked OTs, but that ignores that he's not really a fast-processing pocket passer. Come on, he had some of the best targets in the NFL in Hill, Kelce, Hardman, and Watkins. Those guys plus Clyde Edwards-Helaire can get quickly achieve separation. Even Mahomes mentioned that he might have taken to the hoof too soon.
He's exciting to watch, but don't confuse excitement, arm angles, deep passes and the ability to run with moving the chains and scoring. Brady has made it a career spreading the ball along much lesser receivers. He's a playmaker.
Isn't that what playmaking is? I equate moving the chains with ability. Brady has that ability. Brady completes plays, he doesn't make them. When they break down he doesn't have the abilities of a Mahomes.
I guess it comes down to what one thinks a playmaker is.
Well sure, in that case Jason Williams of Sacramento Kings fame was one of the greatest playmakers of all time. But you'd have to limit the appraisal to highlight reels, not results.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67631 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 11:51 am Post subject:
angrypuppy wrote:
jodeke wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
jodeke wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
I’d have to take Brady. Yes he had the advantage of that team and system, but as he just proved, he gets it done, and seven in the free agency and cap period in that sport is insane.
I'd agree if it was about accomplishments. I chose Patrick because he "Makes Plays." When plays break down he "makes plays" that cause the broken play to succeed. The FirstTake debate was not about successful careers it was about making plays.
Mahomes didn't "make plays" when it was needed during Super Bowl LV. The popular narrative is that he lacked OTs, but that ignores that he's not really a fast-processing pocket passer. Come on, he had some of the best targets in the NFL in Hill, Kelce, Hardman, and Watkins. Those guys plus Clyde Edwards-Helaire can get quickly achieve separation. Even Mahomes mentioned that he might have taken to the hoof too soon.
He's exciting to watch, but don't confuse excitement, arm angles, deep passes and the ability to run with moving the chains and scoring. Brady has made it a career spreading the ball along much lesser receivers. He's a playmaker.
Isn't that what playmaking is? I equate moving the chains with ability. Brady has that ability. Brady completes plays, he doesn't make them. When they break down he doesn't have the abilities of a Mahomes.
I guess it comes down to what one thinks a playmaker is.
Well sure, in that case Jason Williams of Sacramento Kings fame was one of the greatest playmakers of all time. But you'd have to limit the appraisal to highlight reels, not results.
Mahomes playmaiking results in moving the chains and scoring. Brady moves the chains and scores within the confines of the play called. When the play breaks down the play fails.
It's a known fact when Brady is pressured he gets frustrated and has itchy feet. When the play breaks down Mahomes gets going and makes a play a play that sometimes has results like moving the chains and scoring.
Brady is a technician, Patrick is a playmaker. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Mahomes playmaiking results in moving the chains and scoring. Brady moves the chains and scores within the confines of the play called.
You lost me with the first two sentences. I'm not even sure where to begin.
Brady calls many of his own plays. Not only does he give guidance during pregame meetings to Arians and Leftwich, he changes plays based on what he sees prior to the snap. Even Arians recalled a pregame meeting where they told Brady what to expect on defense. Brady who wasn't even from the NFC told them that wasn't how that team was going play them defensively, then outlined what the defense would look like and how'd they'd exploit it. And Brady was right, that was exactly how the opposing team tried to play them defensively. I'll go further. Not only does Brady call the play during the audible, he also calls out the pass protection blocking assignments to his linemen.
Does Mahomes do that? No.
Playmaking isn't acting like Curly Howard on the gridiron.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:20 pm Post subject:
Why did Brady have that ten year drought in the middle of his career? He could have ten or more rings if not for that. _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
Why did Brady have that ten year drought in the middle of his career? He could have ten or more rings if not for that.
You may want to take a look at the supporting cast. New England drafts weren't good but they did manage to sign a few aging stars. Brady won the MVP in a couple of those years throwing to guys who weren't even household names in their own households.
What is remarkable was his ability to elevate those teams and take them on deep playoff runs. That's what really separates him from all the other great QBs in the past.
Joined: 24 Dec 2007 Posts: 35813 Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA
Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 12:51 pm Post subject:
angrypuppy wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
Why did Brady have that ten year drought in the middle of his career? He could have ten or more rings if not for that.
You may want to take a look at the supporting cast. New England drafts weren't good but they did manage to sign a few aging stars. Brady won the MVP in a couple of those years throwing to guys who weren't even household names in their own households.
What is remarkable was his ability to elevate those teams and take them on deep playoff runs. That's what really separates him from all the other great QBs in the past.
So why do some people say Brady only wins so much because of superstar supporting casts and Belichick? _________________ Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:
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