Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:14 am Post subject: Real Small Ball
Ok I’ve been posting a lot in many threads so I thought this deserved it own. It’s true the League is becoming a small ball league, however if small ball players are in the lineup it must outweigh their defensive insufficiencies.
Monk has proven he can get the mismatch, he can shoot from three, take a player off the dribble, finish around the rim, make some great passes, and make free throws.
My hopes are Nunn can do the same. He is a guy who can put the ball on the floor and finish around the rim.
The point of going small is to gain an offensive advantage. At this point THT, Ellington, and Baze aren’t justifying their offensive existence.
I believe Reeves is one of those guys as well.
Hopefully Getting Ariza back, and maybe keeping Johnson will help. Right now the lakers are in no man’s land. Guards who can’t defend, or make defenders pay when they are in the lineup.
With AD out, Bron and Ariza(when he comes back) can take turns at the C, can't trust Melo at the 5. He should always stay as a 4 to spread floor.
I just want to see more players who can break down a defense. I thought THT could do that, but he hasn’t developed a three point shot, so defenses are ready for him to put the ball on the floor.
Our best small ball lineup was the one that beat Dallas. I won't get too excited with these wins. We gave up 122 points and barely beat a bad Rockets team who were on a B2B and we were fresh. Melo will not shoot like he did in this game, each game and Westbrook for sure will not score as well as he did in this game.
Lebron is the one that benefits most from small ball as a 5, but as a team, we are far worse defensively and we need rim protection, a rebound threat, and someone that can match up with bigger players. There's no way a team with Lebron at C is winning a title. As great as Lebron is, it will only work on offense.
The lineup I liked best was AD, Bron, Reaves, Monk, Bradley. That lineup played well against Dallas. A much better team than Houston.
What I think we can definitely buy into is running Bron at the 5/WB lineups when AD sits, that enable Bron to be the 5 and WB to have the spacing he covets. We were even trying that with AD in the middle, moving from 4 to 5.
Our best small ball lineup was the one that beat Dallas. I won't get too excited with these wins. We gave up 122 points and barely beat a bad Rockets team who were on a B2B and we were fresh. Melo will not shoot like he did in this game, each game and Westbrook for sure will not score as well as he did in this game.
Lebron is the one that benefits most from small ball as a 5, but as a team, we are far worse defensively and we need rim protection, a rebound threat, and someone that can match up with bigger players. There's no way a team with Lebron at C is winning a title. As great as Lebron is, it will only work on offense.
The lineup I liked best was AD, Bron, Reaves, Monk, Bradley. That lineup played well against Dallas. A much better team than Houston.
What I think we can definitely buy into is running Bron at the 5/WB lineups when AD sits, that enable Bron to be the 5 and WB to have the spacing he covets. We were even trying that with AD in the middle, moving from 4 to 5.
I’m not excited about the win at all, the purpose of the thread was to point out “small ball” isn’t just about putting guards on the floor. They have to be players who can dominate on the offensive end enough to justify their existence on the defensive end. Right now the Lakers do not have those players, so they suffer on both sides of the ball.
That being said I think Reeves, monk, and Nunn being back eventually will help.
Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Real Small Ball
Lakerz113 wrote:
Ok I’ve been posting a lot in many threads so I thought this deserved it own. It’s true the League is becoming a small ball league, however if small ball players are in the lineup it must outweigh their defensive insufficiencies.
Monk has proven he can get the mismatch, he can shoot from three, take a player off the dribble, finish around the rim, make some great passes, and make free throws.
My hopes are Nunn can do the same. He is a guy who can put the ball on the floor and finish around the rim.
The point of going small is to gain an offensive advantage. At this point THT, Ellington, and Baze aren’t justifying their offensive existence.
I believe Reeves is one of those guys as well.
Hopefully Getting Ariza back, and maybe keeping Johnson will help. Right now the lakers are in no man’s land. Guards who can’t defend, or make defenders pay when they are in the lineup.
The ultimate small ball lineup for us would have been an "angry", as LeBron called him preseason, AD at the 5. Because he's been touted as being able to guard 1-5 by some folks, he along with LeBron, would have the size advantage over many opponents, without us losing anything defensively.
But AD has not looked "angry" from the start. As a manner of fact, I can't shake the feeling that he's putting up good numbers, but not playing with any sense of an edge.
Perhaps I'm off about that, but he has not looked "angry". I equate angry with being dominant. Ain't seen it.
Small ball with lebron at the 5 is giving occasional layups and rebounds,
Small ball with melo at center is basically giving up the game. This game was killed by that lineup again, it is net neg every game since Fitzale take over.
I’m going to bump my own thread. I understand AD is out and LeBron has been playing good at center, but the Lakers have too many small ball players that don’t justify the lineup.
Dwight should have got some minutes tonight and the other night. We barely beat a bottom feeder team. THT and Westbrook do not give the Lakers enough offense of spacing to justify sitting a big man. If their defense was better I could see the angle, but the Lakers are running small ball with guys who are offensively just don’t give you an advantage.
Right now giving the ball to Russ or THT on the perimeter may as well be Dwight. And defensively I’d take some Dwight minutes. If you go small your guards and wings better be able to defend decent, rebound, and put threat on the defense.
Are the lakers really any better sacrificing defense and boards ?
I get it Russ is going to play, but what’s frustrating is we have that deal to THT, and he’s like a Russ only worse.
Right now giving the ball to Russ or THT on the perimeter may as well be Dwight. And defensively I’d take some Dwight minutes. If you go small your guards and wings better be able to defend decent, rebound, and put threat on the defense.
Are the lakers really any better sacrificing defense and boards ?
I get it Russ is going to play, but what’s frustrating is we have that deal to THT, and he’s like a Russ only worse.
I completely agree with everything you’ve said here, and in your previous post. Dwight would have an incredibly positive impact for us tonight.
This gimmick only works as long as they can continue to make shots. They got outrebounded by almost 20.
It only worked tonight because it was a very depleted Minny team ...Christ...Reid looked like an all star tonight. This will absolutely not work against Phoenix, Denver, Utah, Philly etc...this small ball thing looks good against weak teams but try it against teams with bigs and see what happens...Vogel is a buffoon...it's still possible to play Dwight in games he's needed...it's not small ball or bust.
This gimmick only works as long as they can continue to make shots. They got outrebounded by almost 20.
Actually they did get out rebounded by over 20.
Final tally was 56-28 and 20-4 on just offensive rebounds.
Small ball in small doses has a benefit in certain situations. As the primary strategy… not so much.
I think people are mis-labeling it as small ball, yes it's small ball but I don't think that's the primary purpose. I think Vogel wants to play 4 shooters with Westbrook so the lane is as open as possible for Lebron/Westbrook/THT. In other words if he had a viable (as in not a liability on defense) stretch-5, Vogel would be playing him.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144475 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2022 3:55 pm Post subject:
JUST-MING wrote:
This gimmick only works as long as they can continue to make shots. They got outrebounded by almost 20.
Plus it helps when the opposition’s players can’t keep the ball from going out of bounds. Watching that Wolves offense trying to pass the ball in the 4th was a real laugher. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Small ball doesn‘t work without having a team like GSW few years ago
Even they, played small ball only for short stretches.
While that GSW team were playing small, they have 3 good athletes. green/iggy/Barnes or green/iggy/KD later on. They don’t lose as many rebounds. We have melo playing 5 while lebron is out. That is stupid. On top of that, we don’t have enough shooters while play small. Playing small is not necessarily a westbrook thing because we’ve done it in the playoffs in our title run and it worked very well. It didn’t look too small because we had the unicorn AD play 5 and lebron (who is taller and stronger than anyone) playing the 4. Obviously we still have these 2 and can focus on small lineups when both are healthy, but until then, it would be best to play dwight when lebron is out.
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Playing small is not necessarily a westbrook thing because we’ve done it in the playoffs in our title run and it worked very well. It didn’t look too small because we had the unicorn AD play 5 and lebron (who is taller and stronger than anyone) playing the 4. Obviously we still have these 2 and can focus on small lineups when both are healthy, but until then, it would be best to play dwight when lebron is out.
In prior seasons it was used in particular matchups and/or as a death lineup after Howard/McGee/Gasol had had their minutes - and that too mostly in the playoffs. In contrast this season it's not only being used all game long, but also on on ongoing basis. This is a very different set of circumstances - which is why there is speculation that this is Westbrook related.
why still sticking with small ball when you have DH? It's not as if they are piling up wins with this small ball lineup. I dont think they will survive in the playoffs with this rotation. Whoever suggested to Vogel that they should play small is a moron.
why still sticking with small ball when you have DH? It's not as if they are piling up wins with this small ball lineup. I dont think they will survive in the playoffs with this rotation. Whoever suggested to Vogel that they should play small is a moron.
Not every game is small ball. It’s matchup dependent.
However, the playoffs have been going to small ball for quite sometime now. You need 5 guys who can switch and defend.
The issue for the Lakers is they are either too big (traditional 5 that gets played off court) or too small asking guards to take on wing defending.
You need wings. The clippers and warriors have been hoarding wings and it’s honestly what you need. Honorable mention to the Suns…but they won’t win because CP3 is old and they are too dependent on him. He will eventually get injured again in the playoffs.
Not every game is small ball. It’s matchup dependent.
However, the playoffs have been going to small ball for quite sometime now. You need 5 guys who can switch and defend.
The issue for the Lakers is they are either too big (traditional 5 that gets played off court) or too small asking guards to take on wing defending.
You need wings. The clippers and warriors have been hoarding wings and it’s honestly what you need. Honorable mention to the Suns…but they won’t win because CP3 is old and they are too dependent on him. He will eventually get injured again in the playoffs.
Good point...against Phoenix, Denver and Utah IMO you need AD and Dwight to guard Ayton, Joker and Gobert....I don't think Bron fares too well against those bigs. However against GS...you don't need Dwight. It's coaches decision against Memphis, Dallas. Clips I would think we need Dwight against Zu and Ibaka....
Not every game is small ball. It’s matchup dependent.
However, the playoffs have been going to small ball for quite sometime now. You need 5 guys who can switch and defend.
The issue for the Lakers is they are either too big (traditional 5 that gets played off court) or too small asking guards to take on wing defending.
You need wings. The clippers and warriors have been hoarding wings and it’s honestly what you need. Honorable mention to the Suns…but they won’t win because CP3 is old and they are too dependent on him. He will eventually get injured again in the playoffs.
if the playoffs is about small ball, then the Lakers have the 2 best player to play small ball in AD and LBJ, but we just need to hope they are both healthy.
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