Alec Baldwin accidentally kills film crew member with prop gun (UPDATE 4/20/23: Charges dropped)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic Reply to topic
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ChefLinda
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24112
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:28 am    Post subject:

ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Let's get a statement from the POS that loaded the gun

Let's get a statement from the directing crew about WHO chose live rounds.

Baldwin should sue the pants off these mental midgets that caused this

Just horrible all around


Baldwin is one of the producers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
angrypuppy
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32730

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:30 am    Post subject:

OK, here's my initial theory: Raw is supposed to be a film within the Western genre. Back in days of "Old West" the guns used black powder (old fashioned gun powder) as the propellant. Black powder was eventually replaced with the more modern smokeless powder, which wasn't widely used in the States until at least the late 1890s. For the sake of authenticity the crew probably used black powder, which means someone either did their own loads or had subcontracted it out to someone who filled the cartridges with black powder. That step probably increased the probability of a hang fire (delayed firing sequence) as we're talking homemade loads rather than factory loads. All it took was a faulty primer, improperly mounted primer, or poor home made black powder mix, etc. You're introducing a lot of potential error.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
panamaniac
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 11238
Location: PTY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:43 am    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
Damn, that's awful poor crew member just trying to do his job gets offed by a prop gun. My condolences to his friends and family. There should be stricter protocols for prop weapons used on sets.


It was a woman - Director of Photography.

Quote:
Director of photography Halyna Hutchins, 42, was transported to the hospital via helicopter and pronounced dead by medical personnel at University of New Mexico Hospital, according to the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office.


Sorry, I skimmed through it. Condolences for her friends and family. May she RIP. Very young too. Just terrible.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
panamaniac
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 28 May 2011
Posts: 11238
Location: PTY

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 8:56 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
panamaniac wrote:
Damn, that's awful poor crew member just trying to do his job gets offed by a prop gun. My condolences to his friends and family. There should be stricter protocols for prop weapons used on sets.


My wife works in production. There are very strict protocols in place in regards to who has access, when and how. Someone clearly broke those.


Also as far as what prop weapons should be admissible on set. Like you said, the process was clearly circumvented. Seems like this will be a messy situation for Baldwin, the film’s producers and those in charge of vetting all props on set. There was obviously some negligent behavior that occurred.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DuncanIdaho
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 17196
Location: In a no-ship

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:32 am    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Washington Post: What is the prop gun Alec Baldwin used, and why are they still on film sets?

Quote:
As firearms experts, writers and producers wondered aloud how this happened, there’s a renewed spotlight on prop guns, their history in film and TV, and why firearms are still showing up on set. While some producers insist on using prop guns with blanks to closely capture the sound and look of a real gun firing, others have been calling for them to be banished from film sets, saying that computer-generated imaging offers a safer alternative.

“There’s no reason to have guns loaded with blanks or anything on set anymore,” tweeted director Craig Zobel, whose credits include the 2020 film “The Hunt” and HBO’s “Mare of Easttown.” “Should just be fully outlawed. There’s computers now.”


Juan Rios, a spokesperson for the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office, said detectives are investigating what type of projectile discharged from the prop gun, as well as how many firearms were on set and how they were handled. Rios said he expects the sheriff’s office will have more information early next week.


There really is no reason to have gunfire as a practical effect on set. Years ago I was the VFX editor on an Antoine Fuqua pilot that involved lots of gunfire. I comped in all the muzzle flashes over the practical ones, thus making them unnecessary in the first place. And sonically, practical gunfire is always replaced with enhanced sound effects on the dub stage.


Related topic, since you can speak with authority on this: Why did the gunfire in Michael Mann movies always sound so great compared to most? Did they use a different process?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144432
Location: The Gold Coast

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: Alec Baldwin kills film crew member with prop gun

DaMuleRules wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/entertainment/rust-film-accident/index.html

Will he be criminally charged?


This is still unfolding, andI have been reading some accounts from people on set because I am acquainted with someone who was on set. It sounds familiar to what happened to Brandon Lee.

The idea of Baldwin being criminally charged is highly unlikely. There are very strict protocols in place in regards to how weapons are handled on set. There's a chain of command in who is responsible for appropriately prepping and presenting a gun for use by anyone else. Ultimately, the property master in charge of the weapon is the one responsible for making sure that the weapon is either rendered safe, or is being handled appropriately.

There's an outside chance that Baldwin violated that chain of command, but even if so, responsibility will likely fall upon the property department person in charge of the gun.


I don’t know how prop weapons work. Why would they give someone a prop weapon that could actually kill someone? Seems irresponsible.


Blanks actually have a soft projectile. It's a piece of wadding that is in place to make the "blank" cartridge fire. It's considered safe, but if someone is too close when it is discharged, it can cause lethal damage.

As an editor who has CGI'd gun fire in the past, I'm stunned that they still go with blanks. I get why they want authenticity for the practical effect, but I'm not sure it's worth the risk these days.


On the news they made a big deal stating that the Union was not invited on the set, instead it was New Mexico people. Is that common? I can see why NM would insist on that, they get more locals paid. But using experienced union workers seems the best idea. I can see the State being a party in any lawsuits.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ContagiousInspiration
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 07 May 2014
Posts: 13811
Location: Boulder ;)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:42 am    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
ContagiousInspiration wrote:
Let's get a statement from the POS that loaded the gun

Let's get a statement from the directing crew about WHO chose live rounds.

Baldwin should sue the pants off these mental midgets that caused this

Just horrible all around


Baldwin is one of the producers.


Ouch. Thank you.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:54 am    Post subject:

DuncanIdaho wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
ChefLinda wrote:
Washington Post: What is the prop gun Alec Baldwin used, and why are they still on film sets?

Quote:
As firearms experts, writers and producers wondered aloud how this happened, there’s a renewed spotlight on prop guns, their history in film and TV, and why firearms are still showing up on set. While some producers insist on using prop guns with blanks to closely capture the sound and look of a real gun firing, others have been calling for them to be banished from film sets, saying that computer-generated imaging offers a safer alternative.

“There’s no reason to have guns loaded with blanks or anything on set anymore,” tweeted director Craig Zobel, whose credits include the 2020 film “The Hunt” and HBO’s “Mare of Easttown.” “Should just be fully outlawed. There’s computers now.”


Juan Rios, a spokesperson for the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office, said detectives are investigating what type of projectile discharged from the prop gun, as well as how many firearms were on set and how they were handled. Rios said he expects the sheriff’s office will have more information early next week.


There really is no reason to have gunfire as a practical effect on set. Years ago I was the VFX editor on an Antoine Fuqua pilot that involved lots of gunfire. I comped in all the muzzle flashes over the practical ones, thus making them unnecessary in the first place. And sonically, practical gunfire is always replaced with enhanced sound effects on the dub stage.


Related topic, since you can speak with authority on this: Why did the gunfire in Michael Mann movies always sound so great compared to most? Did they use a different process?


It all comes down to the sound mixer’s technique. They probably punch it up by doubling two or tripling it up with stacked sounds for the firing, echo etc. When I do a temp mix for screening purposes, I usually add a couple of different types on top of the practical to add some beefiness and reverberance.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:59 am    Post subject: Re: Alec Baldwin kills film crew member with prop gun

venturalakersfan wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/21/entertainment/rust-film-accident/index.html

Will he be criminally charged?


This is still unfolding, andI have been reading some accounts from people on set because I am acquainted with someone who was on set. It sounds familiar to what happened to Brandon Lee.

The idea of Baldwin being criminally charged is highly unlikely. There are very strict protocols in place in regards to how weapons are handled on set. There's a chain of command in who is responsible for appropriately prepping and presenting a gun for use by anyone else. Ultimately, the property master in charge of the weapon is the one responsible for making sure that the weapon is either rendered safe, or is being handled appropriately.

There's an outside chance that Baldwin violated that chain of command, but even if so, responsibility will likely fall upon the property department person in charge of the gun.


I don’t know how prop weapons work. Why would they give someone a prop weapon that could actually kill someone? Seems irresponsible.


Blanks actually have a soft projectile. It's a piece of wadding that is in place to make the "blank" cartridge fire. It's considered safe, but if someone is too close when it is discharged, it can cause lethal damage.

As an editor who has CGI'd gun fire in the past, I'm stunned that they still go with blanks. I get why they want authenticity for the practical effect, but I'm not sure it's worth the risk these days.


On the news they made a big deal stating that the Union was not invited on the set, instead it was New Mexico people. Is that common? I can see why NM would insist on that, they get more locals paid. But using experienced union workers seems the best idea. I can see the State being a party in any lawsuits.


It was a union set. Apparently the 44 rep meant the prop master wasn’t 44, but was a different local for the NM region. I know it was a union set because people have been complaining that they have been skirting certain requirements in regards to hours per day and turnarounds. They are supposed to provide hotels in certain circumstances when on lication, and that wasn’t always followed through on. I think you might be referring to the fact that the Producers apparently did allow a union rep visit set to confirm compliance.

This is all stuff I am gathering from industry social media groups.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lakersken80
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38749

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:04 am    Post subject:

NMLaker wrote:
even blanks can kill if close enough.


Jon-Erik Hexum, poor guy killed himself playing Russian roulette with a blank.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
hoopschick29
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 12898
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:10 am    Post subject:

lakersken80 wrote:
NMLaker wrote:
even blanks can kill if close enough.


Jon-Erik Hexum, poor guy killed himself playing Russian roulette with a blank.


Wasn't Brandon Lee killed with some so-called blank?? Or was that some other malfunction??
_________________
So glad we gave you your flowers while you were here, Kobe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
lakersken80
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 38749

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:30 am    Post subject:

hoopschick29 wrote:
lakersken80 wrote:
NMLaker wrote:
even blanks can kill if close enough.


Jon-Erik Hexum, poor guy killed himself playing Russian roulette with a blank.


Wasn't Brandon Lee killed with some so-called blank?? Or was that some other malfunction??


Brandon Lee's accident was different in that there was a dummy round left in there. So the blank round fired and propelled the dummy round. It was basically like firing a live round.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
LongBeachPoly
Franchise Player
Franchise Player


Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 16018

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:00 am    Post subject:

Quote:
The bullet Alec Baldwin fired from a prop gun first struck director of photography Halyna Hutchins — then exited her body and hit film director Joel Souza’s clavicle on the set of the upcoming film “Rust,” according to a report Friday.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
angrypuppy
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32730

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:00 pm    Post subject:

LongBeachPoly wrote:
One article is saying he "accidentally fired" the gun. Wonder what that means?

Quote:
Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was killed and director Joel Souza was injured Thursday after star and producer Baldwin, 63, accidentally misfired a prop gun at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set in New Mexico. Upon further investigation, the local sheriff's department learned that Hutchins, 42, and Souza, 48, were "shot when a prop firearm was discharged" by Baldwin.


I wonder if this happened in the middle of a scene because it'd be weird how the Director and the Cinematographer were hit. I'd imagine they'd be behind the camera and the gun wouldn't be pointed at them.

According to Debra Messing, it was used in a scene. Now, I don't think she was actually there, so I don't know where she's getting her info at.

Quote:
"It is absolutely NOT. A prop gun was handed to him. He used it in the scene. Then- a catastrophic event happened where Halnya [sic] Hutchins lost her life and Joel Souza was injured. I am praying for all of their families," wrote Messing.


Baldwin's spokesperson says he fired blanks:

Quote:
A spokesperson for Baldwin said there was an accident on the set involving the misfire of a prop gun with blanks.


Seems that it was either: (1) an accidental discharge or (2) intentional discharge of a gun firing (supposed blanks)

Quote:
Accidental discharges or guns firing blanks have been blamed for deaths in past movie productions.




Well this is the source of confusion for all of us, pending a release of what actually happened. Three possibilities spring to mind:

1. Baldwin mis-aimed. I've never been on a movie set, but I would think that since you're aiming slightly upstage you should not be able to hit the director or the director of photography. I would believe that those two individuals would be downstage from any film scene, like near the cameras. I'm sure DMR knows better.

2. Baldwin's weapon had a hangfire round. A misfire is when the round never goes off. A hangfire round is more dangerous as it fires well after the hammer (or firing pin) strikes the primer. In other words the round acts like it has a delayed fuse. If this is the case, perhaps Baldwin either thought someone forgot to place a round in the cylinder, or thought it was a misfire (which is a round with propellant that never ignites).

3. Baldwin lacking muzzle awareness; he accidentally fires off a round while not demonstrating basic gun safety.



What really caught my eye is that two members of the set were hit. They must have been extremely close to the weapon, both victims practically touching. A wad up close can penetrate bone let alone vitals, but that wad will lose considerable velocity after striking the first victim. Or perhaps someone hand loaded too much propellant into the cartridge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
jonnybravo
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 30619

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:17 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
It's just applied physics. Even though the wad has a relatively small mass, the muzzle velocity at short range is extremely dangerous. From what I understand handguns are typically aimed well outside (upstage) of the targeted actor, to the outside from where the cameras are filming. Being that cameras are one-eyed, the lack of depth perception makes it look like the handgun is being aimed directly at the targeted actor.

Handguns are pretty safe and not prone to accidental discharge, other than a misfire or hangfire which but rarely happens. If that's the case you're supposed to keep the muzzle away from harm's way and wait for the potentially delayed ignition of the gunpowder. My guess is that either Baldwin didn't aim properly or perhaps he didn't realize (wasn't properly trained) as to what to do in the event of a hangfire.


That's how Voyagers guy died. Actually now that I'm thinking back on it, I think he pointed the gun and shot himself with it in jest thinking a blank was harmless.
_________________
KOBE
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:19 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
LongBeachPoly wrote:
One article is saying he "accidentally fired" the gun. Wonder what that means?

Quote:
Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was killed and director Joel Souza was injured Thursday after star and producer Baldwin, 63, accidentally misfired a prop gun at the Bonanza Creek Ranch set in New Mexico. Upon further investigation, the local sheriff's department learned that Hutchins, 42, and Souza, 48, were "shot when a prop firearm was discharged" by Baldwin.


I wonder if this happened in the middle of a scene because it'd be weird how the Director and the Cinematographer were hit. I'd imagine they'd be behind the camera and the gun wouldn't be pointed at them.

According to Debra Messing, it was used in a scene. Now, I don't think she was actually there, so I don't know where she's getting her info at.

Quote:
"It is absolutely NOT. A prop gun was handed to him. He used it in the scene. Then- a catastrophic event happened where Halnya [sic] Hutchins lost her life and Joel Souza was injured. I am praying for all of their families," wrote Messing.


Baldwin's spokesperson says he fired blanks:

Quote:
A spokesperson for Baldwin said there was an accident on the set involving the misfire of a prop gun with blanks.


Seems that it was either: (1) an accidental discharge or (2) intentional discharge of a gun firing (supposed blanks)

Quote:
Accidental discharges or guns firing blanks have been blamed for deaths in past movie productions.




Well this is the source of confusion for all of us, pending a release of what actually happened. Three possibilities spring to mind:

1. Baldwin mis-aimed. I've never been on a movie set, but I would think that since you're aiming slightly upstage you should not be able to hit the director or the director of photography. I would believe that those two individuals would be downstage from any film scene, like near the cameras. I'm sure DMR knows better.

2. Baldwin's weapon had a hangfire round. A misfire is when the round never goes off. A hangfire round is more dangerous as it fires well after the hammer (or firing pin) strikes the primer. In other words the round acts like it has a delayed fuse. If this is the case, perhaps Baldwin either thought someone forgot to place a round in the cylinder, or thought it was a misfire (which is a round with propellant that never ignites).

3. Baldwin lacking muzzle awareness; he accidentally fires off a round while not demonstrating basic gun safety.



What really caught my eye is that two members of the set were hit. They must have been extremely close to the weapon, both victims practically touching. A wad up close can penetrate bone let alone vitals, but that wad will lose considerable velocity after striking the first victim. Or perhaps someone hand loaded too much propellant into the cartridge.


Apparently, and this is second hand through people who know crew, they were not filming at the time. This was an accidental discharge while the DP, Director and Baldwin were having a discussion. The camera team had actually walked off set in the morning due to the poor working conditions I mentioned earlier. Which would explain why the two victims were close enough to both get hit.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Omar Little
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90299
Location: Formerly Known As 24

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:29 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
It's just applied physics. Even though the wad has a relatively small mass, the muzzle velocity at short range is extremely dangerous. From what I understand handguns are typically aimed well outside (upstage) of the targeted actor, to the outside from where the cameras are filming. Being that cameras are one-eyed, the lack of depth perception makes it look like the handgun is being aimed directly at the targeted actor.

Handguns are pretty safe and not prone to accidental discharge, other than a misfire or hangfire which but rarely happens. If that's the case you're supposed to keep the muzzle away from harm's way and wait for the potentially delayed ignition of the gunpowder. My guess is that either Baldwin didn't aim properly or perhaps he didn't realize (wasn't properly trained) as to what to do in the event of a hangfire.


Very unlikely that the wadding in a blank would hit two people. More likely a live round that went through one person to the person behind (relative to the gun). Seems like they might have been framing a shot with Baldwin.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:40 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
It's just applied physics. Even though the wad has a relatively small mass, the muzzle velocity at short range is extremely dangerous. From what I understand handguns are typically aimed well outside (upstage) of the targeted actor, to the outside from where the cameras are filming. Being that cameras are one-eyed, the lack of depth perception makes it look like the handgun is being aimed directly at the targeted actor.

Handguns are pretty safe and not prone to accidental discharge, other than a misfire or hangfire which but rarely happens. If that's the case you're supposed to keep the muzzle away from harm's way and wait for the potentially delayed ignition of the gunpowder. My guess is that either Baldwin didn't aim properly or perhaps he didn't realize (wasn't properly trained) as to what to do in the event of a hangfire.



Very unlikely that the wadding in a blank would hit two people. More likely a live round that went through one person to the person behind (relative to the gun). Seems like they might have been framing a shot with Baldwin.


The camera crew had walked off set that morning. While it’s possible the Director and DP were going to try and shot it without that crew, I would highly doubt they’d break ranks with the department to do so. It’d be like doing scab work - though it’s wildcat strike situation, it’d be highly frowned upon by rest of the crew.

Rdit: I stand corrected. They brought in 4 non union camera ops in an attempt to continue shooting (this from one of the camera crew who had walked off). One of the reasons behind their safety concerns: gun safety on the set.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
angrypuppy
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 13 Apr 2001
Posts: 32730

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
It's just applied physics. Even though the wad has a relatively small mass, the muzzle velocity at short range is extremely dangerous. From what I understand handguns are typically aimed well outside (upstage) of the targeted actor, to the outside from where the cameras are filming. Being that cameras are one-eyed, the lack of depth perception makes it look like the handgun is being aimed directly at the targeted actor.

Handguns are pretty safe and not prone to accidental discharge, other than a misfire or hangfire which but rarely happens. If that's the case you're supposed to keep the muzzle away from harm's way and wait for the potentially delayed ignition of the gunpowder. My guess is that either Baldwin didn't aim properly or perhaps he didn't realize (wasn't properly trained) as to what to do in the event of a hangfire.


Very unlikely that the wadding in a blank would hit two people. More likely a live round that went through one person to the person behind (relative to the gun). Seems like they might have been framing a shot with Baldwin.




Yes that is very weird, they would have to be in very close proximity and frankly the vitals or bone would significantly reduce the speed of the projectile (wad).

Here's the deal though: If they were going for authenticity, the revolver would likely be a .44 (or contemporary .45) caliber. All the popular "Wild West" sidearms are replica Colts (Single Action aka Army, Single Action 1860, or the Colt Open Top). That's a lot of propellant in that cartridge, and as I stated earlier, it could have been hand-loaded black powder which increases human error.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
CandyCanes
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 24 Dec 2007
Posts: 35750
Location: Santa Clarita, CA (Hell) ->>>>>Ithaca, NY -≥≥≥≥≥Berkeley, CA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:41 pm    Post subject:

DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
It's just applied physics. Even though the wad has a relatively small mass, the muzzle velocity at short range is extremely dangerous. From what I understand handguns are typically aimed well outside (upstage) of the targeted actor, to the outside from where the cameras are filming. Being that cameras are one-eyed, the lack of depth perception makes it look like the handgun is being aimed directly at the targeted actor.

Handguns are pretty safe and not prone to accidental discharge, other than a misfire or hangfire which but rarely happens. If that's the case you're supposed to keep the muzzle away from harm's way and wait for the potentially delayed ignition of the gunpowder. My guess is that either Baldwin didn't aim properly or perhaps he didn't realize (wasn't properly trained) as to what to do in the event of a hangfire.



Very unlikely that the wadding in a blank would hit two people. More likely a live round that went through one person to the person behind (relative to the gun). Seems like they might have been framing a shot with Baldwin.


The camera crew had walked off set that morning. While it’s possible the Director and DP were going to try and shot it without that crew, I would highly doubt they’d break ranks with the department to do so. It’d be like doing scab work - though it’s wildcat strike situation, it’d be highly frowned upon by rest of the crew.

Rdit: I stand corrected. They brought in 4 non union camera ops in an attempt to continue shooting (this from one of the camera crew who had walked off). One of the reasons behind their safety concerns: gun safety on the set.


Off topic— but is working in Hollywood not actually as glamorous as it is portrayed to be? Are there office politics, backstabbing, and social climbing in Hollywood just like in any corporate environment? Why does everyone always act like friends at all of the major awards shows?
_________________
Damian Lillard shatters Dwight Coward's championship dreams:

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:22 pm    Post subject:

angrypuppy wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
angrypuppy wrote:
It's just applied physics. Even though the wad has a relatively small mass, the muzzle velocity at short range is extremely dangerous. From what I understand handguns are typically aimed well outside (upstage) of the targeted actor, to the outside from where the cameras are filming. Being that cameras are one-eyed, the lack of depth perception makes it look like the handgun is being aimed directly at the targeted actor.

Handguns are pretty safe and not prone to accidental discharge, other than a misfire or hangfire which but rarely happens. If that's the case you're supposed to keep the muzzle away from harm's way and wait for the potentially delayed ignition of the gunpowder. My guess is that either Baldwin didn't aim properly or perhaps he didn't realize (wasn't properly trained) as to what to do in the event of a hangfire.


Very unlikely that the wadding in a blank would hit two people. More likely a live round that went through one person to the person behind (relative to the gun). Seems like they might have been framing a shot with Baldwin.




Yes that is very weird, they would have to be in very close proximity and frankly the vitals or bone would significantly reduce the speed of the projectile (wad).

Here's the deal though: If they were going for authenticity, the revolver would likely be a .44 (or contemporary .45) caliber. All the popular "Wild West" sidearms are replica Colts (Single Action aka Army, Single Action 1860, or the Colt Open Top). That's a lot of propellant in that cartridge, and as I stated earlier, it could have been hand-loaded black powder which increases human error.


Judging from what is being said about this production, I really don't think their focus was on chasing any deep level of authenticity when it came to props. It's lower budget tier feature, and the producers were cutting corners everywhere they could - which is why the camera crew (with the exception of one B camera assist). Their prop master was not affiliated with the predominant Local for that field. So it's not likely they were someone who was focusing on period authenticity. Not to mention that gun safety was one of the complaints stated by the crew that walked. They likely didn't have a a specialty weapon handler/loader as a secondary safety to the weapon handling.

It's sounding like there were shoddy protocols all around on that set. Given the pass through injuries, it is most likely that a live round was mistaken for a fake round, which looks like an actual piece of ammunition, but is inert.

The other truly sad thing about this is that it sounds like the producers, the DP who died and the Director who was injured decided to press forward with shooting despite the fact that their camera crew had quit that day. So it sounds like they were emphasizing moving forward with production, setbacks be damned. Not exactly an atmosphere were safety and caution were being strictly adhered to.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:30 pm    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:

Off topic— but is working in Hollywood not actually as glamorous as it is portrayed to be? Are there office politics, backstabbing, and social climbing in Hollywood just like in any corporate environment? Why does everyone always act like friends at all of the major awards shows?


It's like any other business, there are elements of all of that in some circumstances. It can be bleepin' hard work sometimes. I've worked on pilots where we worked 16+ hours a day for three weeks straight with one day off before the next three week cycle starts. I'm in post production, so I'm inside and off my feet during that time. People in production work those kind of hours all the time, and do so on their feet all day.

Currently, the IATSE strike that has been talked about is largely focused on those tough working conditions. There are several, but the lengthy days without sufficient time off in between is one of the biggest.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
ChefLinda
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 20 Sep 2006
Posts: 24112
Location: Boston

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 5:33 pm    Post subject:

Alec Baldwin Didn't Know Weapon Contained Live Rounds: Warrant

Quote:
An assistant director unwittingly handed Alec Baldwin a loaded weapon and told him it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, the Associated Press reports, citing court records released Friday.

“Cold gun,” the assistant director announced, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.

Instead, the gun was loaded with live rounds, and when Baldwin pulled the trigger Thursday on the set of a Western, he killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. Director Joel Souza, who was standing behind her, was wounded, the records said.


The Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office obtained the warrant Friday so investigators could document the scene at the ranch outside Santa Fe where the shooting took place. They sought Baldwin’s blood-stained costume for the film “Rust” as evidence, as well as the weapon that was fired, other prop guns and ammunition, and any footage that might exist.

According to the records, the gun was one of three that the film's armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted. Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application.


I don't understand why you would ever have live rounds loaded in any gun on a movie set.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
DaMuleRules
Retired Number
Retired Number


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 52624
Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:07 pm    Post subject:

ChefLinda wrote:
Alec Baldwin Didn't Know Weapon Contained Live Rounds: Warrant

Quote:
An assistant director unwittingly handed Alec Baldwin a loaded weapon and told him it was safe to use in the moments before the actor fatally shot a cinematographer, the Associated Press reports, citing court records released Friday.

“Cold gun,” the assistant director announced, according to a search warrant filed in a Santa Fe court.

Instead, the gun was loaded with live rounds, and when Baldwin pulled the trigger Thursday on the set of a Western, he killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. Director Joel Souza, who was standing behind her, was wounded, the records said.


The Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office obtained the warrant Friday so investigators could document the scene at the ranch outside Santa Fe where the shooting took place. They sought Baldwin’s blood-stained costume for the film “Rust” as evidence, as well as the weapon that was fired, other prop guns and ammunition, and any footage that might exist.

According to the records, the gun was one of three that the film's armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, had set on a cart outside the wooden structure where a scene was being acted. Assistant director Dave Halls grabbed the gun from the cart and brought it inside to Baldwin, unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application.


I don't understand why you would ever have live rounds loaded in any gun on a movie set.


You wouldn't on any well run production. Unfortunately this one wasn't anywhere close to that. It sounds like (a widely shared speculation) they may have had dummy rounds for use in close ups and to make guns appear loaded in use. And if you were dealing with a careless prop master, it's possible that live rounds were mistaken for inert dummies.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames


Jason Isbell

Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Omar Little
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 90299
Location: Formerly Known As 24

PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:19 pm    Post subject:

The likeliest explanation is that the director and DP (one over the other’s shoulder) we’re getting a camera’s eye view of a shot they were considering and some dumb (bleep) put live rounds in the gun.
_________________
“We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Reply with quote
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic    LakersGround.net Forum Index -> Off Topic All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 2 of 10
Jump to:  

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum






Graphics by uberzev
© 1995-2018 LakersGround.net. All Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy. Terms of Use.
LakersGround is an unofficial news source serving the fan community since 1995.
We are in no way associated with the Los Angeles Lakers or the National Basketball Association.


Powered by phpBB