TWOLVES -at- LAKERS - 11/12 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings

 
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:40 pm    Post subject: TWOLVES -at- LAKERS - 11/12 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings

No Fight, No Focus... Laker fans started booing early in the fourth quarter.

The team gave up a 40-12 third quarter, losing a halftime lead and showing no fight in the second half. You have to go back to 1951 to find as bad a third quarter as that, Spectrum reported afterward.

They have had poor third quarters in the past, but perhaps tonight those recent overtime games of late may have caught up with the depleted roster.

The Lakers went small with the starting lineup tonight. It clicked early as they went on a 22-4 run over 7 minutes in the first quarter. Their defense held the TWolves to 19 points in that first quarter. But the legs, effort and execution stayed in the locker room at the half.

If there was a change to be made, it might have been to attack more instead of settling so much on offense. But without the effort defensively, the team was done anyway. They were just a step or two slow and a step or two off of shooters and never dug in.

Vogel burned his last timeout with 9 minutes left down by 33 as they were taking punches and TKO’d. They were outscored 53-15 at that point. They fell 107-83 to a struggling TWolves team.

“That was embarrassing,” AD said, mentioning there was no effort in the third quarter once again.


Davis -- -- He led the team in the first half with 16 points on 5-8 shooting along with 2 steals and 2 blocks. KAT also picked up three fouls. Strong first half and then the team got throttled. To add injury to insult, as the case was, he got hit in the groin by KAT midway through the third, a tech on KAT and a stomach ache and a point for AD on the tech. I might have sat him early for DJ or Dwight in this one. He called out the team’s effort tonight, especially in that third quarter. Very frustrated tonight. It’s a small thing, but you miss guys like Reaves and Caruso, who give you that every night. The Stats: He scored 22 points on 7-13 shooting (0-1 from three, 8-10 from the line) to go with 8 boards, 2 assists, 3 steals, 3 blocks, 2 turnovers and 4 fouls in 31 minutes. He was a -16.

Westbrook -- -- He was a -11 in the first half while Rondo was a +17. He started the second half with two turnovers, the TWolves took the lead and Vogel called a timeout before we could break a sweat. He then bricked a three over the zone. That quickly extended him to a -27. Defenders could sag off him and disrupt others. Domino effect of problems. He ended up a -32. (Rondo was a +0 in the second half, Russ a -22.) As mentioned, it’s not just turnovers or poor shots at times with him, it’s also how defenders can sag off him and disrupt others. You’d see someone like Monk trying to attack, but the D could just leave Westbrook, pinch in and force a turnover. So you’ve got Russ’s turnovers, but also sometimes a mix in of teammate's turnovers because of him standing on the perimeter...and now you have bigger problems. We have to play with purpose. Winging it offensively is too problematic. If he's standing around and not occupying defenders off ball, it's just a mess. His assist-to-turnover ratio right now is one of the lowest of his career (last year was among the highest). It’s early and there’s a lot of ugliness to try to smooth out. The Stats: He scored 20 points on 7-11 shooting (2-4 from three, 4-6 from the line) to go with 5 boards, 3 assists, 5 turnovers and 1 foul in 31 minutes. He was a -32.

Bradley -- -- Where the fatigue hits him I think is the off-ball D. We saw some poor/late reactions at times as the game went along. Some moments early on, forcing his man into a turnover, hitting a corner jumper and then knocking down a three. The Stats: He scored 5 points on 2-6 shooting (1-3 from three) to go with 2 boards, 1 assist and no fouls in 27 minutes. He was a -15.

Ellington -- -- They picked on him a little bit to start the second half as we were outscored 19-3 in just over 4 minutes. If you can get him into man D instead of chasing shooters, then you’re in business. You’ll see some straight-line drives and getting the D to collapse. The Stats: He scored 6 points on 2-8 shooting (2-7 from three) to go with 1 turnover and 2 fouls in 28 minutes. He was a -15.

Bazemore -- -- Your starting PF tonight as we went small. This would be LeBron’s spot in the small lineup, and, well, that’s a pretty significant drop off. Baze continues to have his struggles. Vogel called a timeout to start the second quarter after Bazemore had two defensive breakdowns and missed three to start the quarter. On one, he took a bad angle on the perimeter and gave up a drive that shouldn’t have happened. On the other, he gave up middle instead of icing and that led to an easy score. That one drew the timeout. We’ve got issues right now with LeBron, Ariza and Reaves all out. The minutes by Baze lately, just awful. I honestly feel like every shot he will take is a miss whether it’s a three or a layup...especially a layup. The Stats: He didn’t score on 0-4 shooting (0-3 from three) to go with 2 boards, 1 block and 2 fouls in 16 minutes. He was a -25.

Anthony -- -- Struggled badly. He was clanking wide open looks. Just didn’t have the shot dialed in. I think our legs were dead tonight as a team. We had some excellent looks. Really liking his communication at times on defense. Whether he’s scramming Rondo or rotating on the backline that was working well at times. He also showed good hands with a strip. Beyond those things defensively, it’s still a work in progress. He had a bonehead foul at the end of the first quarter with 0.1 left when he hit a man in the head on a halfcourt heave with 0.1 left for a flagrant-1. The Stats: He scored 3 points on 1-12 shooting (1-8 from three) to go with 5 boards, 1 assist, 2 steals, 1 block, 1 turnover and 1 foul in 24 minutes. He was a -20.

Howard -- -- We went small with the starting unit, sitting DJ. Dwight stayed in his usual back up C role. He had a nice putback And-1 when he came in the game. But a couple of turnovers later (the unforced bad outlets kill me). He drew a little cheer from the crowd with a couple minutes left when he knocked down a three. He’d take and miss two more in garbage time. The Stats: He scored 9 points on 3-5 shooting (1-3 from three, 2-2 from the line) to go with 10 boards (3 offensive), 2 steals, 1 block, 2 turnovers and 2 fouls in 23 minutes. He was a -3.

Monk -- -- The shot was not there tonight. We had a few guys like that, which really felt more like just more like a tired team versus streak shooting gone south. Really sloppy with the passing, as well. In the last game, he played focused and measured. Tonight was the opposite. Back to the turnovers and indecisive plays. He and Melo were 2-15 from three combined. This is the kind of game where later, when you have a more complete roster, you see a guy doesn’t have it, he sits the rest of the night. He was kind of symbolic of the team tonight. Couldn’t hit a shot and then was indecisive trying to go to plan B. The Stats: He scored 7 points on 3-11 shooting (1-7 from three) to go with 2 boards, 2 assists, 2 steals, 1 block, 4 turnovers and no fouls in 29 minutes. He was a -18.

Rondo -- -- A +17 in his 10 first half minutes. He set up AD for a dunk on a drive and dish and hit him with a lob for a score. They sagged and he hit a three. He had a high arching scoop layup that dropped. Defensively, during that stretch we’d switch quite a bit and then Melo on occasion would scram Rondo out of there. He’d end up with the team best +/-. His last two games have had some nice stretches of ball. Stuffed the stat sheet a bit with a near triple-double in his time out there. The Stats: He scored 7 points on 3-8 shooting (1-4 from three) to go with 8 boards, 8 assists, 2 steals, 3 turnovers and 2 fouls in 24 minutes. He was a +17.

Doumbouya -- -- He came in with about 8 minutes left. He’s been the opposite of a victory cigar, coming in for that Portland buttkicking as well as this one. He scored a layup on the break and get a couple of FTs. He had a nice challenge defensively on a drive and also get a steal on the perimeter. *Thinks about playing Doumbouya over Bazemore* in this depleted roster instead of using Baze at PF. Yeah, we just need guys back now, please. The Stats: He scored 4 points on 1-4 shooting (0-1 from three, 2-2 from the line) to go with 2 boards, 1 steal, 1 block, 1 turnover and no fouls in 8 minutes. He was a +7.

Vogel -- -- Key Moment: The awful start to the third quarter. Westbrook making bad decisions, turnovers and general trainwreck was killing them. There was no fight in the Lakers defensively, but also no punch back on the offensive end because of their poor decision making. They fell back by 20 in the quarter before getting a three by Bradley. That was a 7-minute stretch without a field goal for the Lakers before that basket. Wow. “We were getting beat to loose balls, we weren’t keeping our man in front of us, we weren’t taking pride in protecting the rim,” Vogel said, then added on the other end, they started pressing.

Key Substitution: The odd +17 for Rondo tonight compared to everyone else. Of course, you look at Russ’s -32. The two even played on the floor for a little stretch, as well. A 49-point differential, though...wow. Can’t wait for LeBron to return.

Key Stats: The Lakers shot 9-41 from three. Half of their FGAs were threes. The Timberwolves weren’t that good tonight. We were just that bad.
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mhan00
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:41 pm    Post subject:

Watching Westbrook this season has been an awful experience. I regret ever talking myself into thinking he would be fun to watch.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:43 pm    Post subject:

1 of the worst games I have ever watched since I started watching the Lakers, I have not seen a single lop-sided 3rd quartet like tonight, I really hope LeBron comes back soon, this is still his team and the Lakers are proving that right now.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:54 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
Watching Westbrook this season has been an awful experience. I regret ever talking myself into thinking he would be fun to watch.


It's a trainwreck.

Honestly, though, the X's and O's required to make it work and all come together are going to be fascinating to me to see play out. They have far too little of it in their playbook right now and seem to never consistently stick with what they do have for whatever reason. Their thinking is on target with the stuff they've run. But man, it's just so inconsistently utilized.

It's just so frustratingly bad at times, and such a painful process. I wish we could just fast forward to about February so we don't have to watch the game we love get crapped on so badly.

Fans were not happy tonight.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:03 pm    Post subject:

This was ugly, after a good first half we go out and just.., i dont know. 40-12 is inexcusable. Gotta regroup fast and next game we have to take the win
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:10 pm    Post subject: Re: TWOLVES -at- LAKERS - 11/12 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings

DancingBarry wrote:

Westbrook -- -- He was a -11 in the first half while Rondo was a +17. He started the second half with two turnovers, the TWolves took the lead and Vogel called a timeout before we could break a sweat. He then bricked a three over the zone. That quickly extended him to a -27. Defenders could sag off him and disrupt others. Domino effect of problems. He ended up a -32. (Rondo was a +0 in the second half, Russ a -22.) As mentioned, it’s not just turnovers or poor shots at times with him, it’s also how defenders can sag off him and disrupt others. You’d see someone like Monk trying to attack, but the D could just leave Westbrook, pinch in and force a turnover. So you’ve got Russ’s turnovers, but also sometimes a mix in of teammate's turnovers because of him standing on the perimeter...and now you have bigger problems. We have to play with purpose. Winging it offensively is too problematic. If he's standing around and not occupying defenders off ball, it's just a mess. His assist-to-turnover ratio right now is one of the lowest of his career (last year was among the highest). It’s early and there’s a lot of ugliness to try to smooth out. The Stats: He scored 20 points on 7-11 shooting (2-4 from three, 4-6 from the line) to go with 5 boards, 3 assists, 5 turnovers and 1 foul in 31 minutes. He was a -32.



DB, I checked my post history and in the FA thread the time where rumors about Russ came in I posted my mixed feelings on it. The negative was...spacing. That he did not provide the very things the Lakers, after last year, needed.

Welp, you literally just summarized my fears as it happened on court. Just smh at this team right now. I have no answers other than this can only work if Russ is blasting to the hoop in some form or fashion on *every* possession (with or without the ball).

Even with LBJ and others out there the issue(s) Russ creates will exist.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:11 pm    Post subject:

mhan00 wrote:
Watching Westbrook this season has been an awful experience. I regret ever talking myself into thinking he would be fun to watch.


Agreed. All my fears about him...literally coming to life right now.

And at an enormous price tag.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:12 am    Post subject:

Live by the 3, die by the 3, that’s our team now. Not a good sign if we make the playoffs when opponents defenses get better (and ours doesn’t).
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:04 am    Post subject:

Seriously, what the hell is wrong with this team in 3rd quarters? Glad I didn’t watch.
Thanks DB!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:18 am    Post subject:

I missed this one. Fell asleep before the game began. Glad I did.

Recaps on games like this are hard. But based on what I have read here, the Lakers had a lead at half and then went to sleep/coast.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:51 am    Post subject:

BTW, said this in another thread. Our record without Bron last year was 12-15 in 27 games. We struggled to be above .500

So far this year we're 3-4 (3 losses to OKC/Minnesota).

But here is the real concern. People may say AD is not doing enough. His impact is still of a star. The role guys may be not good enough, again I am not so sure. Yes we need Nunn/THT/Ariza etc. but at the same time role guys are always hit/miss. For every good game, they give you a bad game too.

Point is, making a case against Melo etc. not really the reason. Melo was due a game like that at Staples. Role players are role players (and paid as such) for a reason. It's the stars you need to carry the team. AD's doing pretty good. His numbers say he's a net positive.

AD 111 O rating
AD 103 D rating

We're a +8 kind of team with AD. Positive, star impact. Despite his flaws and not having Lebron next to him (his best mate).

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/davisan02.html

Westbrook 95 O rating
Westbrook 106 D rating

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html

Based on that, he's a net negative -11. 95 O rating in this era, is really bad for a starting PG.

Westbrook is a concern. He's not making the star impact, and is a net negative. I don't know how much longer we can keep going this way, but until Bron returns and Nunn/THT, it will likely be the case. We're running the offense heavily reliant on Westbrook. Without Nunn/THT/Bron, this is going to stay the case. However this must change when Bron returns.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:12 am    Post subject:

Ah (bleep) me
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:27 am    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
Watching Westbrook this season has been an awful experience. I regret ever talking myself into thinking he would be fun to watch.


It's a trainwreck.

Honestly, though, the X's and O's required to make it work and all come together are going to be fascinating to me to see play out. They have far too little of it in their playbook right now and seem to never consistently stick with what they do have for whatever reason. Their thinking is on target with the stuff they've run. But man, it's just so inconsistently utilized.

It's just so frustratingly bad at times, and such a painful process. I wish we could just fast forward to about February so we don't have to watch the game we love get crapped on so badly.

Fans were not happy tonight.

Westbrook isn't as much of a problem as some make him out to be.

Yeah, the turnovers are a problem. But when he has, say, 25 points, 10+ rebounds and 10 assists and shoots reasonably well from the field, all that outweighs the turnovers. He has had several games like that already.

Against Minnesota Westbrook's problem was that he was passive. Instead of pushing the ball and attacking, he just settled, like the rest of the team. The team in general played slowdown basketball and settled for tough shots late in the shot clock. That is not Laker basketball.

Maybe the biggest problem with this team is attitude. They can't just chill until LeBron comes back. When you have injuries you need to play harder, like wounded animals.

Otherwise, next thing we know, we'll be something like 14-15 and suddenly HCA in any round of the playoffs is out of the question, and now we may not even make the playoffs to begin with.

It's early enough where if they change their attitude now, they could easily go on like a 5 game winning streak and then be something like 12-6.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:32 am    Post subject:

A couple days ago, someone commented that, without Lebron, we are dependent on one of the role players going nuts from three. This game supports that view. Davis wasn't bad, and Westbrook wasn't bad. But Carmelo, Monk, and Ellington shot 4 for 22 from three. When that happens, we just don't have enough juice.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:57 am    Post subject:

DrDent wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
Watching Westbrook this season has been an awful experience. I regret ever talking myself into thinking he would be fun to watch.


Agreed. All my fears about him...literally coming to life right now.

And at an enormous price tag.


A -32 doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Those who questioned the "fit" of Westbrook on this team are looking wise right about now.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: TWOLVES -at- LAKERS - 11/12 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings

DrDent wrote:
he did not provide the very things the Lakers, after last year, needed.

I have no answers other than this can only work if Russ is blasting to the hoop in some form or fashion on *every* possession (with or without the ball).

Even with LBJ and others out there the issue(s) Russ creates will exist.
On Point

Thought Russ promised that he will not take any plays off in any games, bring energy/force in every game and be a leader - these are the top issues

If Westbrook is
not inspiring the team to play hard on every play
not constantly moving (aka Reggie Miller/Ray Allen)
not providing leadership
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:55 am    Post subject:

PenG_ wrote:
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with this team in 3rd quarters? Glad I didn’t watch.
Thanks DB!


This game skews the stat a little but we are now getting outscored by about 6 points on average in the third.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:38 am    Post subject:

take that for data.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:50 am    Post subject:

The Wizards are 8-3...was it addition, or subtraction?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:54 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
mhan00 wrote:
Watching Westbrook this season has been an awful experience. I regret ever talking myself into thinking he would be fun to watch.


It's a trainwreck.

Honestly, though, the X's and O's required to make it work and all come together are going to be fascinating to me to see play out. They have far too little of it in their playbook right now and seem to never consistently stick with what they do have for whatever reason. Their thinking is on target with the stuff they've run. But man, it's just so inconsistently utilized.

It's just so frustratingly bad at times, and such a painful process. I wish we could just fast forward to about February so we don't have to watch the game we love get crapped on so badly.

Fans were not happy tonight.

Thanks DB!

I totally agree with this frustratingly painful process. I picked a good season to be the first time I am without any kind of paid cable or streaming package. Totally reliant on random, low quality streams if I want to take a gander at a random, low quality Lakers team right now.

Maybe I will get Sling TV for the playoffs if we get healthy and make it that far. Being in the central time zone it's just too much staying up so late to watch these crappy performances. So, I am still keeping up before going to bed by lurking on game threads or to do some score/stat watching. If it seems like an interesting game I will tune in and watch but usually about the 3rd quarter I have all I need to know.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:02 pm    Post subject:

How do you give up 18 to Towns in the third?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: TWOLVES -at- LAKERS - 11/12 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
DrDent wrote:
he did not provide the very things the Lakers, after last year, needed.

I have no answers other than this can only work if Russ is blasting to the hoop in some form or fashion on *every* possession (with or without the ball).

Even with LBJ and others out there the issue(s) Russ creates will exist.
On Point

Thought Russ promised that he will not take any plays off in any games, bring energy/force in every game and be a leader - these are the top issues

If Westbrook is
not inspiring the team to play hard on every play
not constantly moving (aka Reggie Miller/Ray Allen)
not providing leadership


Yep. Box scores just don't reflect the reality of Westbrook's game. Triple doubles with poor decision making, lack of off ball movement, not otherwise occupying defenders by fixing his 3 point shot, and getting lost on defense. That's not going to win titles.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:11 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
How do you give up 18 to Towns in the third?


He was definitely hot, and we are sometimes prone to getting hurt by perimeter bigs. Give TWolvws some credit for some adjustments and setting up good looks after the half. Giving up that many points in a quarter to a team would have been survivable if not for our total inability to put the ball in the bucket on the other end. That to me is where I think we saw some guys with dead legs.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2021 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: TWOLVES -at- LAKERS - 11/12 - Thoughts and :-(( Ratings

TooMuchMajicBuss wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
DrDent wrote:
he did not provide the very things the Lakers, after last year, needed.

I have no answers other than this can only work if Russ is blasting to the hoop in some form or fashion on *every* possession (with or without the ball).

Even with LBJ and others out there the issue(s) Russ creates will exist.
On Point

Thought Russ promised that he will not take any plays off in any games, bring energy/force in every game and be a leader - these are the top issues

If Westbrook is
not inspiring the team to play hard on every play
not constantly moving (aka Reggie Miller/Ray Allen)
not providing leadership
Yep. Box scores just don't reflect the reality of Westbrook's game. Triple doubles with poor decision making, lack of off ball movement, not otherwise occupying defenders by fixing his 3 point shot, and getting lost on defense. That's not going to win titles.
If defense is 90% effort and Westbrook promises to bring 110% energy on every play - that is of concern

If Westbrook can’t break down his man for a midrange or straight line drive to the basket, can’t see the passing lanes and not constantly moving without the ball - that is of concern

If playing Hero Ball is usually being seen with Westbrook, instead of helping the entire team having the best change to score - that is of concern

If Westbrook is unable or unwilling to provide his promised energy and normal positive basketball decision - that is of concern

If having the entire Laker offense around Westbrook’s strengths while limiting his weaknesses, even with LBJ in the game, is THIS of concern to Vogel???
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