How AD React to the Jokic Challenge?
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A Mad Chinaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:51 am    Post subject: How AD React to the Jokic Challenge?

In the past, Bird and Magic Rivalry (Lakers - Celtics) inspired these two great players to obsessively improve their respective “Hall of Fame” / GOAT skills to far greater heights because of how their competitive spirit were driving and and pushing them, how will AD react to the challenge that Jokic presents

Bam has displayed offensive productivity against Jokic (albeit in one game and with different team schemes - Ham factor?).

Ham had to take AD off Jokic since Rui and LBJ (both are not centers) were more effective. Will Bamba and Thompson be on next year’s roster to compensate for AD’s ineffectiveness

AD stated that he wanted to be DPOY. Apparent that will not happen since Jokic, Embiid and Giannis are ahead of him

AD is an uber talented 4/5 who is (when on the court) a possible Top 10 player (behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, LBJ, KD, Butler) without the ability to consistently make an impact at crunch time. Likable, affable, well-meaning and worth a big contract - a super max for the max length (hmmmmm). Fully guaranteed till LBJ retires/end of his contract seems best for all sides with a player option if certain levels are achieved

Hope that AD will rise to the Challenge of Jokic plus Embiid and Giannis.

Everybody know that LBJ is The Face and Heart of the Lakers

It is not a sin or fault if one is not obsessed in doing anything and everything possible to improve their game to win rings. It is Rob’s job to place AD in the position for the Lakers to win multiple rings. Very few players have the drive, discipline and commitment to win like Kobe to Bird to Jordan to KG to The Logo to Bill Russell to very others in NBA history
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: How AD React to the Jokic Challenge?

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
In the past, Bird and Magic Rivalry (Lakers - Celtics) inspired these two great players to obsessively improve their respective “Hall of Fame” / GOAT skills to far greater heights because of how their competitive spirit were driving and and pushing them, how will AD react to the challenge that Jokic presents


Bird and Magic's careers were intertwined. They competed in college, they came into the NBA together, they faced each other in the finals multiple times.

I wouldn't expect Jokic and AD to develop some intense personal rivalry just because they faced each other in the playoffs this year.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:18 pm    Post subject:

AD is nowhere close to Jokic in terms of impact/legacy. He is not even the same level as Dwight Howard legacy wise.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:25 pm    Post subject:

AD is not a #1 option, he is a glorified role player.

Talented, but not a top 10 player in the NBA.

AD is not that effective at the 5, against big, physical centers or players (Giannis).

Jokic is gonna abuse him again, if AD guards him.

The best bet for Lakers is to get a physical big to play next to AD.


Last edited by Outspoken on Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:31 pm    Post subject:

Lol....Miami letting the offense go through Bam is exactly what Denver wanted.

It stalled their offense a lot of times.

Also Bam has nothing defensively against Joker.

We were literally an inch away in every game. Jokic and Jamal just hit some ridiculously contested dagger threes against us. It's their year.

We'd have eviscerated this Miami team had we gone through.

AD def needs to do more on offense though. But it's clear to me he isn't a creator but a finisher. Yeah sure he has the mid range but other than that the way he creates offense is shaky.

I wish he'd lose weight because a slimmer more fluid AD is a different breed.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:55 pm    Post subject:

People have short memories with the Bam talk. Bam had 26 points on 13-25 shooting in game 1. AD had 40 points on 14-23 shooting against Jokic in game 1.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:02 pm    Post subject:

AD dominated him in the bubble. Come on he was the best player that season.

Injury-free AD is better but I don't think he'll be the same player.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:05 pm    Post subject:

Denny_Russo wrote:
AD dominated him in the bubble. Come on he was the best player that season.

Injury-free AD is better but I don't think he'll be the same player.


IIRC Jokic was in foul trouble the whole series and still put up decent numbers. I wonder what his stats would have looked like if he played 40mpg like AD.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:19 pm    Post subject:

Huh? what the heck?
Ask Jokic to defend like AD. He can't.
Ask AD to be a floor general like Jokic, he can't.
I don't get these posts. Did we ever get posts like "How Magic react to the Jordan challenge?" when the Lakers lost to the Bulls? The loss didn't diminish Magic, BOTH were all-time greats, just like both AD and Jokic will remain great. As for dealing with Jokic, no one player can contain an all-time great: the FO/coachoes have to find ways of containing Jokic (remember the word "contain", greats can only be contained, they can't be stopped, you have to get the rest of the team to beat the other team) while allowing AD to maximize his strengths, it's not AD vs Jokic, it's the Laker team vs the Denver team. Jeez.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:14 pm    Post subject:

Outspoken wrote:
AD is not a #1 option, he is a glorified role player.

Talented, but not a top 10 player in the NBA.

AD is not that effective at the 5, against big, physical centers or players (Giannis).

Jokic is gonna abuse him again, if AD guards him.

The best bet for Lakers is to get a physical big to play next to AD.


AD is a #2 like Pippen. Great defensive player who can have great nights on offense, but won't dominate on offense every night. I think he's top 10 when healthy.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:48 pm    Post subject:

People just keep forgetting that Anthony Davis was playing on a bad wheel in the playoffs

It was all hands on deck, and every game was a playoff game after the trade deadline. Just trying to get in.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:37 pm    Post subject:

Ad is the best player on our team by miles. If you hate him you’re going to have a tough go the next 2 years.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: How AD React to the Jokic Challenge?

activeverb wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
In the past, Bird and Magic Rivalry (Lakers - Celtics) inspired these two great players to obsessively improve their respective “Hall of Fame” / GOAT skills to far greater heights because of how their competitive spirit were driving and and pushing them, how will AD react to the challenge that Jokic presents
Bird and Magic's careers were intertwined. They competed in college, they came into the NBA together, they faced each other in the finals multiple times.

I wouldn't expect Jokic and AD to develop some intense personal rivalry just because they faced each other in the playoffs this year.
Agree that Bird/Magic's career were locked in since they were in college (and before).

There is no "rivalry" because it is clear that Jokic is better than AD in many ways.

My question is how AD will react to the Jokic Challenge?

AD is an über-talented player that is strategic to the Lakers' upcoming success.

The last series exposed AD's weaknesses when playing against the very best of the NBA. AD's dream of receiving DPOY award will not be happening soon. Laker fans are not satisfied with being second best.

LBJ will always be a mismatch in our favor, AD is not
LBJ is dependable during clutch time, AD is not
LBJ was able to have some effectieness against Jokic, AD did not

Hence the question, if AD want to be The Best - how will he react during this off-season to The Challenge

When the Lakers face the Nuggets in the playoffs, Rob will have to obtain players to compensate AD's inability to defend Jokic
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:56 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
Huh? what the heck?
Ask Jokic to defend like AD. He can't.
Ask AD to be a floor general like Jokic, he can't.

I don't get these posts. Did we ever get posts like "How Magic react to the Jordan challenge?" when the Lakers lost to the Bulls? The loss didn't diminish Magic, BOTH were all-time greats, just like both AD and Jokic will remain great. As for dealing with Jokic, no one player can contain an all-time great: the FO/coachoes have to find ways of containing Jokic (remember the word "contain", greats can only be contained, they can't be stopped, you have to get the rest of the team to beat the other team) while allowing AD to maximize his strengths, it's not AD vs Jokic, it's the Laker team vs the Denver team. Jeez.
Jordan was a generation behind Magic and he knew that MJ's was the New Sheriff in Town (just watch the documentary on the Dream Team). Bird and Magic's off-season intense training with both players closely monitoring the efforts of the other throughout the season.

Jokic was AD's main assignment and the clear obvious adjustment was taking AD off Jokic. Yes, one will never "stop" Jokic - one hope to not allow Jokic to be effective in passing and shooting in every fashion possible. In the Lakers' Team D against the Nuggets, it was clear that AD having the main defensive assignment to defend was not effective while discovering LBJ and Rui as being far more successful hence need to major key strategic changes.

As shared, AD is an uber-talented player who is strategic in the Lakers' future success. Recognizing that he is probably a mismatch that we can not take advantage of against legitimate title-contending teams such as the Jokic/Murray Nuggets, Embiid's 76ers, Giannis' Bucks and KD/Booker Suns - we need to acquire somebody that can limit the above-listed players if our intentions to win another ring

LBJ, on the other hand, is always a mismatch that we can take advantage of against elite title-contiending teams

How will AD reach to The Challenge of Being The Best, that will prompt Rob to objetively look at our team's needs to make the right changes
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:05 pm    Post subject: Re: How AD React to the Jokic Challenge?

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
activeverb wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
In the past, Bird and Magic Rivalry (Lakers - Celtics) inspired these two great players to obsessively improve their respective “Hall of Fame” / GOAT skills to far greater heights because of how their competitive spirit were driving and and pushing them, how will AD react to the challenge that Jokic presents
Bird and Magic's careers were intertwined. They competed in college, they came into the NBA together, they faced each other in the finals multiple times.

I wouldn't expect Jokic and AD to develop some intense personal rivalry just because they faced each other in the playoffs this year.
Agree that Bird/Magic's career were locked in since they were in college (and before).

There is no "rivalry" because it is clear that Jokic is better than AD in many ways.

My question is how AD will react to the Jokic Challenge?

AD is an über-talented player that is strategic to the Lakers' upcoming success.

The last series exposed AD's weaknesses when playing against the very best of the NBA. AD's dream of receiving DPOY award will not be happening soon. Laker fans are not satisfied with being second best.

LBJ will always be a mismatch in our favor, AD is not
LBJ is dependable during clutch time, AD is not
LBJ was able to have some effectieness against Jokic, AD did not

Hence the question, if AD want to be The Best - how will he react during this off-season to The Challenge

When the Lakers face the Nuggets in the playoffs, Rob will have to obtain players to compensate AD's inability to defend Jokic


AD is obviously an amazing talent but he's never going to be that guy consistently imo especially against a much bigger guy like Jokic.. We all got kind of tricked when we seen his perimeter shooting all throughout the bubble but 3 years later and that's looking like he was clearly just having a perfectly timed hot streak. When his outside shot is consistently falling he's obviously a completely different beast and an absolute nightmare matchup but that hasn't really happened consistently since the Bubble.

Him and DLo both can be taken out of games by being very physical with them.. AD has overcome this at times at least but I never feel comfortable seeing it happen.

I agree though that our number one priority outside of making sure we resign Rui and Austin should be a big man that can both spell AD from playing center as much in the regular Season while being an at least decent big body to throw at the Joker.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:29 pm    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
AD is the best player on our team by miles. If you hate him you’re going to have a tough go the next 2 years.
I am not hating on AD

Unfortunately, if you believe that AD is the "best player on our team by miles" without recognizing that he is behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, KD and selected others in terms of dominance/mismatch in our favor/impact - we have problems.

Is AD uber-talented, yes.

It has been shared that he was playing on one leg (hey, props that he was playing) but all NBA rotation players playing the Western/Eastern Conference Finals are all injured. During The Bubble, other players were injured

Recognizing that 38-39 years old LBJ is The Driver of the Bus on Our Team who is always a mismatch when playing any team in the NBA is key with building complimentary players around him from our Scottie Pippen (AD) to Austin (Powers) Reeves to Rui Hashimoto to Vando (hit an outside shot) to DLO (please don't disappear), DS (defensive pressure in the opponent's face, all the time) and others (Beasley?, Christie?, Bamba?, Thompson?, etc.)

What Nuggets have is a humble true superstar who have make a large impact whose only agenda is winning rings. Our team is starting to have the needed continuity to win, Ham is a coach that is developing a Laker Culture and hopefully we will bring together players that Buys In to whatever it takes to win rings by leaving their respective egos/agendas behind

Our team has a bright path ahead of us, if we prudently and pragmatically continue on our past we took this past season. Just like the Nuggets and Heat suffered last year through growing pains, will our future include participation in The Finals Next Year.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:39 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Halflife wrote:
AD is the best player on our team by miles. If you hate him you’re going to have a tough go the next 2 years.
I am not hating on AD

Unfortunately, if you believe that AD is the "best player on our team by miles" without recognizing that he is behind Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, KD and selected others in terms of dominance/mismatch in our favor/impact - we have problems.

Is AD uber-talented, yes.

It has been shared that he was playing on one leg (hey, props that he was playing) but all NBA rotation players playing the Western/Eastern Conference Finals are all injured. During The Bubble, other players were injured

Recognizing that 38-39 years old LBJ is The Driver of the Bus on Our Team who is always a mismatch when playing any team in the NBA is key with building complimentary players around him from our Scottie Pippen (AD) to Austin (Powers) Reeves to Rui Hashimoto to Vando (hit an outside shot) to DLO (please don't disappear), DS (defensive pressure in the opponent's face, all the time) and others (Beasley?, Christie?, Bamba?, Thompson?, etc.)

What Nuggets have is a humble true superstar who have make a large impact whose only agenda is winning rings. Our team is starting to have the needed continuity to win, Ham is a coach that is developing a Laker Culture and hopefully we will bring together players that Buys In to whatever it takes to win rings by leaving their respective egos/agendas behind

Our team has a bright path ahead of us, if we prudently and pragmatically continue on our past we took this past season. Just like the Nuggets and Heat suffered last year through growing pains, will our future include participation in The Finals Next Year.

Ad was solid post injury but I would move him in a second. We got our ring with him, his value is good. Bron is cooked so we can just ride him into sunset for 55 or so more games. To think there will be some magical bridge to the next great lakers is nuts. We need to strip this puppy down.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:32 pm    Post subject:

AD's impact on the court doesn't make him a glorified role player. No one in the league has the same defensive impact as him, aside from maybe Giannis. Why were the Lakers within striking distance in each of the 4 games vs Denver? Certainly not because of Lebron. All they needed was DLo to show up and they take the series.

If AD goes, say goodbye to the Lakers championship aspirations until they get another generational talent. Even if Rui and AR15 magically average 20+ ppg next season, Lakers still won't hit that championship mark without AD. Scoring will only get you play-in berths and first round exits at best.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:34 pm    Post subject:

The revision of the bubble chip is wild. First off our regular season was a little shaky. Kcp was a hot mess and people had been wanted him gone. Rhonda was also not that great and was pouting. Ad hurt and lbj hurt I think. Also Danny green couldn’t shoot nothing into the ocean. However the vid happen given as and lbj rest. Rhonda in the playoffs turned to playoff rondo and he became like that old arcade nba jam game...passing defense and moreover shooting from 3 was insane based on what he gave in regular season. Kcp foundnt his three and ad and lbj had much rest. The heroes of Denver was dh as Mcgee was too light but Howard punished him. Dh last of the tradition big men. Ad moves to 4 meant no resistance by Denver...as Gordon wasn’t ion that team. Ad looked like Superman he didn’t really have to deal with joker. Guess what? We had a coach that kept with that advantage all series unlike someone smh. Oyeah and morkief was throwing 3 like the goal was wide as the ocean.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:38 am    Post subject:

JustaObserver wrote:
The revision of the bubble chip is wild. First off our regular season was a little shaky.


The Lakers were the best in the West and second only to the Bucks in overall record. It wasn't that shaky. They lost by 2 points to the Nets in the final game before the bubble, which stopped a run where they had won 11 of their previous 12 games, including a 9 point win vs. the Clippers, and a 10 point win against the Bucks.

Quote:
Kcp was a hot mess and people had been wanted him gone.


KCP was always a streaky shooter, but he shot 38.5% from three that year. And he always gave you good defense. Some people here always hated on him. Others saw him for what he was. A three and D guy.

He shot 37.8% in the playoffs, so worse than the regular season.

Quote:
Ad hurt and lbj hurt I think.


They were both healthy when covid hit. It was their healthiest season together. AD missed 9 games earlier in the year. Lebron only missed 4 games.

Quote:
Also Danny green couldn’t shoot nothing into the ocean


He had a down shooting season for sure, but he still shot 36.7% in the regular season. He struggled more in the playoffs, only shooting 34.7%.

Now certainly AD played out of the world offensively in the bubble. He also got hurt later in the playoffs and it affected his play.

Rondo raised his game in the playoffs, as he traditionally did. He definitely had an impact. He was probably the one role player who you could say elevated his game in the playoffs.

Markieff was a nice addition, and he shot the ball very well in the playoffs, but he only scored 5.9 points per game.

Then on the flip side it also has to be noted that Avery Bradley was a starter in the regular season, and skipped the bubble entirely.

Kuzma was awful in the playoffs, shooting 43% from the field and 31% from three while averaging 10 points.

McGee wound up being unplayable, with 7 DNPs, and playing under 10 minutes per game in the other 14 games.

Dwight's defense against Jokic was also crucial, but he was much less useful in some other series. In the end he averaged 6 and 5, with only 0.4 blocks and 3 DNPs.

The biggest thing that year is that Lebron and AD were both healthy. AD was in his prime. Lebron still had enough left of his. Kuzma (who shot terribly) and KCP were the only other Lakers to average double digits, at 10 and 10.7 points per game. But they had a collection of role players who played good defense and could hit open shots.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:41 am    Post subject:

AD has never been that alpha do whatever it takes to win player. He has a ton of talent though that is declining. When he is engaged he is still a top 5 defender in the league but tends to coast in some games. I really don’t see the dominance of Joker causing AD to change his ways.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:03 am    Post subject:

Denny_Russo wrote:
AD's impact on the court doesn't make him a glorified role player. No one in the league has the same defensive impact as him, aside from maybe Giannis. Why were the Lakers within striking distance in each of the 4 games vs Denver? Certainly not because of Lebron. All they needed was DLo to show up and they take the series.

If AD goes, say goodbye to the Lakers championship aspirations until they get another generational talent. Even if Rui and AR15 magically average 20+ ppg next season, Lakers still won't hit that championship mark without AD. Scoring will only get you play-in berths and first round exits at best.
Why were the Lakers competitive with the Nuggets for all four games
* Balanced Roster that filled the offensive gaps when AD wasn't producing
* AD was utilized effectvely on Ham's defensive schemes (taken off Jokic)
* AR, who produced at critical times
* Rui, who took AD's assignment on Jokic
* DS, who hounded Murray till he ran out energy or fouls
* LBJ (with a torn tendon), who took the last shot in the deciding fourth quarter where AD wasn't even considered and/or involved with the play

AD is not a glorified role player, he is an uber-talented player

There are selected other players that have equal and/or greater than AD on defense within elite title-contending teams

He is ranked the 17th (https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nbas-top-50-players-in-2022-23-season-giannis-jokic-luka-battle-for-no-1-lebron-slips-out-of-top-10/) best player between 2020-2023.

Question is whether AD is a player that either is a mismatch (in our favor) and/or evenly matched. Jokic to Embiid to Giannis to KD are better than AD, hence Ham would be forced to stunt, double-team and/or switch him off (which Ham was forced to).

Noteworthy that LBJ and Rui (both more undersized than AD) were more effective than AD.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:16 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
AD has never been that alpha do whatever it takes to win player. He has a ton of talent though that is declining. When he is engaged he is still a top 5 defender in the league but tends to coast in some games. I really don’t see the dominance of Joker causing AD to change his ways.
Your last statement is revealing

Is he "resigned" to the fact that Jokic consistently dominates him on offense and he is unable to consistently dominate him on offense.

For somebody who STATED that he wanted to be the DPOY was punked by Jokic and it wasn't even close and forced Ham to switch to LBJ and Rui

Having a player that will ask/demand/expect a MAX contract in terms of years and $$$$$ that doesn't aspire/obsessed/committed/driven to be the Best (at least in his position) is interest - if true.

Given that Ja Morant gives all appearances that he can do anything he want at any time and get away with it because the NBA "needs him" (***NOT*** saying that AD's situation is even close to this tragedy), how should Laker fans react when we are used to the obsession/commitment of players from Kobe to LBJ?

If one is to pick one play when starting a NBA team, one would pick the following before AD
Jokic
Giannis
Embiid
Luka
KD
LBJ
Butler
Dame
Ant Man

AD is among the Top 10 and fading

Maybe Rob and AD can work together where AD's contract ends the same time as LBJ's.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:42 pm    Post subject:

ADs defense is not fading. His defensive performance in the playoffs was the best I've seen him play on that side of the ball. There were games where he had the paint completely locked down. I can't remember the last time I've seen that kind of defensive dominance and that was done with a bad wheel.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 1:43 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
For somebody who STATED that he wanted to be the DPOY was punked by Jokic and it wasn't even close and forced Ham to switch to LBJ and Rui


I don't think that is an accurate representation of what happened. Jokic obviously has size that can bother AD, that much is certain. But the reasons they went with Rui and Lebron more as the series went on, instead of AD as the primary defender, was so that AD could roam and be a weakside shot blocker. Which he could not while guarding Jokic. Moreover, with Jokic shooting a ridiculous percentage from three, AD would have had to guard him out to the three point line, which pulls him further from the paint.

At the end of the day, nobody on the Lakers was going to be able to stop Jokic one on one. Though they did hold him to under 47.5% shooting in games 2-4. AD wasn't going to be able to shut him down defensively, so having AD on him became a problem. If AD left to help, Jokic killed the rest of the team on the offensive glass. If Jokic played on the perimeter, he nullified AD's shot blocking as a whole.

So given that, they put Rui and Lebron on him, because those two had enough girth that they could keep him from getting great position, and then use AD as a helper. In Jokic's dominant game 1 (when AD also had 40), in the fourth quarter the success they had against him, wasn't because Rui was guarding him, it was AD's double team while Rui was guarding him.
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