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who gets majority blame for this poor start |
Lebron- coasting thru season, too much influence in franchise |
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14% |
[ 11 ] |
Anthony Davis- playing lazy and inconsistent |
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9% |
[ 7 ] |
Rob Pelinka - broke up championship team for no reason |
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35% |
[ 26 ] |
Russell Westbrook - too many turnovers and poor shooting |
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8% |
[ 6 ] |
Jeanie Buss- not being hands on enough |
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1% |
[ 1 ] |
Roll players - like THT, Baze, so forth, poor shooting/defense |
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6% |
[ 5 ] |
injuries |
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13% |
[ 10 ] |
Vogel- poor rotations and offensive strategy |
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10% |
[ 8 ] |
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Total Votes : 74 |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:02 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | In hindsight the Green for Schroeder swap was a disaster. I don't think it was a wrong move though. Green is still a solid player, but I don't think he's quite worth what his contract is (was) paying him. He struggled at times in the bubble and KCP stepped up and seemed like he could shoulder more load at the 2 with Green gone. Getting the sixth man runner-up for very little in exchange seemed like a good trade to make. |
Yep. I agree with you, man.
The thing is I bet the Lakers had the same dilemma. They wanted to maybe revert back to this style of play, and went with the Hield move. Bringing in Buddy is basically an upgrade of what Danny Green used to give on offense but with less defense. However this reinforces Bron back to the PG spot full time. And AD's load gets a lot more heavy as we now only have 2 real shot creators. As good as Hield is, he's not a guy that you rely on to run your point guard position, or run your offense through.
Then when Westbrook option came, I am not sure if it was initiated by Rob or Bron/AD. Or WB's camp. I really don't know. I do know wanted and tried to trade for CP3 and Lowry when the Dennis move failed. So we've been in the market for a PG for a while. Whether it's to reduce the load on Bron or to help AD get more baskets inside, or match up with the Nets/Warriors. I honestly can't say. But I do think if you asked most people if they wanted their top 3 players on a team to be Bron, AD, Hield or Bron, AD, Westbrook, the majority take the latter 3. It's just talent.
To me the next step is obvious. You got to move THT/Monk etc. Unless THT/Monk (And I'll add Nunn too) become starting level core players. The combined talent and salary of them can give you 2 MLE level starting wings (Danny Green for example makes 10M per). We married ourselves to AD/Bron/WB for 2 years. There's no going back now. We need to get 2 other starting level wings who compliment them. It doesn't need to be stars. It needs to be 6'5 or bigger guys who can defend the 1-2-3 and shoot 3s. We need active defenders who are high motor on that end, shut up, and play D. On offense, just are happy shooting the ball and playing off stars. Danny Green and KCP types. I say their names only because they were Lakers and we are familar with their games.
I mean I'd love for THT/Monk to develop into that, but I don't see it happening within the season. Right now Frank is hoping Avery Bradley (vet min, non guarantee) and Ariza (old, vet min signing coming off surgery) will shore up the defense around AD/Bron/WB. It makes no sense to me to have all this "talent" that can create when you already have the big 3. Get the dudes that will do the dirty work and be willing to throw their bodies out there and not look for their own shot unless it's created for them. Avery is ok, but he's not supposed to be starting on a contender. I just don't think Rob has a choice at this point but to make 2 moves for 2 starting level players around the big 3. |
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lakersfever714 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 11598
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:33 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Quote: | In hindsight the Green for Schroeder swap was a disaster. I don't think it was a wrong move though. Green is still a solid player, but I don't think he's quite worth what his contract is (was) paying him. He struggled at times in the bubble and KCP stepped up and seemed like he could shoulder more load at the 2 with Green gone. Getting the sixth man runner-up for very little in exchange seemed like a good trade to make. |
Yep. I agree with you, man.
The thing is I bet the Lakers had the same dilemma. They wanted to maybe revert back to this style of play, and went with the Hield move. Bringing in Buddy is basically an upgrade of what Danny Green used to give on offense but with less defense. However this reinforces Bron back to the PG spot full time. And AD's load gets a lot more heavy as we now only have 2 real shot creators. As good as Hield is, he's not a guy that you rely on to run your point guard position, or run your offense through.
Then when Westbrook option came, I am not sure if it was initiated by Rob or Bron/AD. Or WB's camp. I really don't know. I do know wanted and tried to trade for CP3 and Lowry when the Dennis move failed. So we've been in the market for a PG for a while. Whether it's to reduce the load on Bron or to help AD get more baskets inside, or match up with the Nets/Warriors. I honestly can't say. But I do think if you asked most people if they wanted their top 3 players on a team to be Bron, AD, Hield or Bron, AD, Westbrook, the majority take the latter 3. It's just talent.
To me the next step is obvious. You got to move THT/Monk etc. Unless THT/Monk (And I'll add Nunn too) become starting level core players. The combined talent and salary of them can give you 2 MLE level starting wings (Danny Green for example makes 10M per). We married ourselves to AD/Bron/WB for 2 years. There's no going back now. We need to get 2 other starting level wings who compliment them. It doesn't need to be stars. It needs to be 6'5 or bigger guys who can defend the 1-2-3 and shoot 3s. We need active defenders who are high motor on that end, shut up, and play D. On offense, just are happy shooting the ball and playing off stars. Danny Green and KCP types. I say their names only because they were Lakers and we are familar with their games.
I mean I'd love for THT/Monk to develop into that, but I don't see it happening within the season. Right now Frank is hoping Avery Bradley (vet min, non guarantee) and Ariza (old, vet min signing coming off surgery) will shore up the defense around AD/Bron/WB. It makes no sense to me to have all this "talent" that can create when you already have the big 3. Get the dudes that will do the dirty work and be willing to throw their bodies out there and not look for their own shot unless it's created for them. Avery is ok, but he's not supposed to be starting on a contender. I just don't think Rob has a choice at this point but to make 2 moves for 2 starting level players around the big 3. |
Why was AD's loads fine during our championship run? Danny Green wasn't helping out with the ballhandling. We ran our offense thru Bron/AD/Rondo during our championship run and it was fine. So yeah, why did we need DS to reduce the loads for Bron and AD then?
If we had Hield and KCP in the starting lineup for WB and AB, we would be much better off because KCP is a better defender than AB and he could shoot the three with more consistency. With Hield spreading the floor, it not only makes it easier for Bron to drive but also much easier for AD to post up. Whatever fantastic stats WB might be putting up offensively he takes away by not being able to spread the floor. |
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PenG_ Franchise Player
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 Posts: 10387
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:40 am Post subject: |
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"Not paying Caruso" |
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wolfpaclaker Retired Number
Joined: 29 May 2002 Posts: 58318
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 7:43 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
Why was AD's loads fine during our championship run? |
The Lakers struggled with Bron off the floor for much of that championship run. Last year, in the playoffs, same thing.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2021.html
If you look at the OBPM.
AD was a +3.2 while injured after game 4.
Bron was a +6.5
Caruso was a -5.4, Kuz was a -5.1, KCP was a -4.7
Against the Suns, unless AD dropped 35+ and dominated, we had a tough time winning games. In games 2 and 3 he did that. Without a 3rd high level player, the Lakers would need AD to literally play like Shaq each playoff series to keep advancing.
I'm not saying this was the right move, I'm saying that I don't think Hield is nearly as good a move as some suggest it was going to be. |
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lakersfever714 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 11598
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:07 am Post subject: |
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wolfpaclaker wrote: | Quote: |
Why was AD's loads fine during our championship run? |
The Lakers struggled with Bron off the floor for much of that championship run. Last year, in the playoffs, same thing.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2021.html
If you look at the OBPM.
AD was a +3.2 while injured after game 4.
Bron was a +6.5
Caruso was a -5.4, Kuz was a -5.1, KCP was a -4.7
Against the Suns, unless AD dropped 35+ and dominated, we had a tough time winning games. In games 2 and 3 he did that. Without a 3rd high level player, the Lakers would need AD to literally play like Shaq each playoff series to keep advancing.
I'm not saying this was the right move, I'm saying that I don't think Hield is nearly as good a move as some suggest it was going to be. |
Well, Hield definitely isn't going to solve all the issues currently with the Lakers because there were so many changes. But he would help the team better than WB would. Hield for WB would make our starting lineup much more like that of our championship team. I'm just shaking my head at WB and DJ in our starting lineup. If WB is to be of any use, he would have to come off the bench.
I don't know what's up with AD. Either the Lakers have ruined him by asking him to shoot more threes hence turning him soft or it's because of his recent injuries. Whatever it is, I hope he returns to his MVP form because we need Lebron and AD to be top 5 in order to have a chance at winning number 18.
Last edited by lakersfever714 on Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8842
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:08 am Post subject: |
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new roster every year can do that for a team. besides LeBron AD and now Russ, anyone on the team most likely won't be here next season. there's no chemistry, no continuity. Lakers is the only team in the league does this annual turnovers. |
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KindCrippler2000 Franchise Player
Joined: 02 May 2003 Posts: 15821
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:26 am Post subject: |
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I called it right after the KCP trade. Rob went all 2k on us and destroyed the team's modus operandi, which was defense. Don't fix what isn't broken.
I still think they'll find some success, but championship success is all but impossible without a top 10 defense.
Of course, anything can happen during the play-in/playoffs, because it's all dependent on individual matchups. When the game slows down and fatigue inevitably kicks in during a 7 game series, you want a Russell Westbrook type that can get you a bucket.
Last edited by KindCrippler2000 on Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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cathy78 Star Player
Joined: 21 Jan 2013 Posts: 1413
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:27 am Post subject: |
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SGV-Laker fan wrote: | new roster every year can do that for a team. besides LeBron AD and now Russ, anyone on the team most likely won't be here next season. there's no chemistry, no continuity. Lakers is the only team in the league does this annual turnovers. |
Because we as fans want something new and exciting every time. And we want to blame someone as well...
I didn't follow the off season much, but could we have had Caruso, KCP and Hield instead of Westbrook? Or Lonzo instead of Hield? And would they actually perform as well as they do right now in the LA spotlight?
I voted to blame Pelinka most, but I still don't think he really messed up, this team has enough talent to win games, both on offense and defense. |
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roger_federer Star Player
Joined: 01 Mar 2020 Posts: 3102
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Rob/Lebron/ownership in that order.
what the heck is that roster. Jordan/AB were out of rotation last year and they are starting for lakers right now.
LBJ/AD/RUSS/THT/DAJ/DWIGHT all play their best in the paint. They all together don't fit
Russ/MELO/THT/MONK/ELLington/DAJ are horrible defenders. How can you hide those many?
Russ can only play 1 way and thatt way doesn't help AD/BRON. so why did we trade for him and ended up starting AB/DAJ |
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Bol Star Player
Joined: 24 Jun 2005 Posts: 4045
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 11:06 am Post subject: |
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mad55557777 wrote: | what changed the most from our championship year is not the rosters, it is the fact that Lebron and AD are just not as dominant (injuries or age). |
Yes. People are looking for someone to blame, but I think by far the biggest problem is just that LeBron is getting old. Can't stay on the court consistently, not as dominant when he does play. If we still had the LeBron of two seasons ago, healthy and playing at an MVP level, I think we'd be right up there with the top teams. The decline was inevitable, they were hoping to forestall it with the Westbrook move, so far it's not working. |
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lakersboy Star Player
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 Posts: 8518 Location: Left coast
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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methdxman wrote: |
Younger fans are giving AD a pass, but you can't pay a guy 159 million, expecting him to get the torch handed over to him and not perform like a franchise player. |
AD performed well in the bubble when he had no choice but to focus on all basketball all the time. His ft pct was high 80’s that season. He wasn’t a bad 3 pt shooter. Last year, his ft’s were around mid 70’s and his outside shot was noticeably worse. I called it out as not working during the off season but everyone told me he deserved the time off because of the short off season. He never got better during the season. This year not only is it more of the same, it’s worse. Now people are calling him out for his poor shooting. Statistically, he has the classic look of a player who got paid, won, and is fat and happy. He’s not putting the work in anymore. People suggesting that injuries are making his shot worse aren’t noticing that simultaneously his ft’s are far worse.
Meanwhile, up until recently, I keep hearing references to Lebron being the best player on the planet. When he was in that conversation his abilities were far superior to what he can do now. A great game from him is when he scores in the high 30’s. He can no longer look defenders in the eye, knowing he’s faster & stronger, and just beat them to the basket. He has to go one way, spin the other way, and maybe he can get there. Most of the time he’s too tired or realizes he doesn’t have a foot speed mismatch, so after literally dribbling 15 seconds off the clock trying to figure out how he used to beat guys to the basket, he launches poor percentage/ distant fall away shots, or gives it to someone else for a percentage busting shot. This isn’t on Vogel. Worthy called him out for his shot selection and shooting too much, the other day. Please don’t tell me the coach should tell him to pass it. Lebron is going to do whatever HE wants.
In the end, you have 2-3 highly paid players who based on their salaries and/or what you gave up to get them, should be carrying this team to the top of the standings.
We need to recognize that our superstars aren’t as special as people claim they are. I’m not impressed by a nice dunk or long 3 point shot. Show me a body of work on both sides of the court, from beginning to end, game after game, that other teams have no answer for.
Call me crazy for saying it, but I wouldn’t be sad if they traded those guys and got decent returns on their investments. FOR ME (not referring to others), it’s not interesting watching these guys play with a bunch of mercenaries who I have virtually zero attachment too, while the end result of the season’s outcome is predictable…..IF…..they make the playoffs.
Warriors and Suns have been well managed while the Bubble championship is a fading memory. With no hope of rebuilding with our own picks, only from reclamation project players, the upcoming years could be worse than the lottery years when we actually looked forward to improving each year. |
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BEazy Star Player
Joined: 06 Nov 2013 Posts: 2588
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Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2021 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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LeBron/Klutch influence, injuries, Rob Pelinka are my votes. |
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Sina Star Player
Joined: 12 Jul 2015 Posts: 1793
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Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2021 11:59 am Post subject: |
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People are too focusing at the win/loss column. It’s regular season. It’s also about developed players i.e. AD down to the low, Russ within the system, shooters’ defense etc and load management. It seems we’re on the right track. |
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troy Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 4973
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Any chance Rob admits he screwed up the defensive roster we had and trades for some 3-d players? |
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LakerLanny Retired Number
Joined: 24 Oct 2001 Posts: 47565
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Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:05 am Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | Plenty of blame to go around. Sadly, they have dug an 8 game hole in the division. |
Forget the division, I am just hoping they squeek into the playoffs. _________________ Love, Laker Lanny |
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troy Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 4973
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Interesting in that the first poll that assigned blame, Lebron got the least amount of votes. Now this newer poll has Lebron 2nd to Rob (who seems to be the person to blame by consensus).
What happened that Lebron is getting more blame now and not last time? |
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BILBJH Star Player
Joined: 23 Jul 2020 Posts: 5105
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Many here love LeBron... some are LBJ fans first like some were Kobe fans.
People are free to watch how they want... some prefer to root for a specific team... some like to follow specific players.
But again, I ask those who think Rob has more power than LBJ to actually walk up to a mirror... look themselves directly in the eyes, and say with straight face... Rob Pelinka is more powerful and has more influence than Lebron James.
You will be looking directly into the eyes of someone who is blinded by delusion. |
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SGV-Laker fan Star Player
Joined: 23 May 2013 Posts: 8842
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:37 am Post subject: |
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Lol @ “Jeannie Buss not being too hands on”. Do you really think she being involved in day to day basketball operations would make this team better? Her strong suit is on the business side of the team, she has no clue hiring the right front office and coaching personnel, all she knows about on that front is hire ex-laker retreats. |
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BLF2145 Starting Rotation
Joined: 14 Jul 2014 Posts: 888
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 11:54 am Post subject: |
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Anyone not picking LBJ has the blinders on way to tight. Everyone knows LBJ is the GM, Coach, player etc. no moves are made without his blessing or in case of RW, his direction. Hell, for what Dennis got from Celts, we should have kept him. But LBJ didn’t want him here anymore.
The truth is Rob is basically doing what LBJ tells him to do. And it is unfortunate we let him have that much power. But we know we mortgage our future for him and getting his Buddy AD here. And it did bring us a ring. But going forward, he will continue to call the shot because FO does not want to piss him off.
It’s crazy to think the Cavs at this point have a brighter future (next few years) than us. I don’t expect them to win anything but they will be the better team unless we just get real lucky with buyouts or an idiot GM willing to take RW. |
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PenG_ Franchise Player
Joined: 01 Feb 2020 Posts: 10387
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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BLF2145 wrote: | Anyone not picking LBJ has the blinders on way to tight. Everyone knows LBJ is the GM, Coach, player etc. no moves are made without his blessing or in case of RW, his direction. Hell, for what Dennis got from Celts, we should have kept him. But LBJ didn’t want him here anymore.
The truth is Rob is basically doing what LBJ tells him to do. And it is unfortunate we let him have that much power. But we know we mortgage our future for him and getting his Buddy AD here. And it did bring us a ring. But going forward, he will continue to call the shot because FO does not want to piss him off.
It’s crazy to think the Cavs at this point have a brighter future (next few years) than us. I don’t expect them to win anything but they will be the better team unless we just get real lucky with buyouts or an idiot GM willing to take RW. |
AD is the guy who said Dennis never threw him lobs. Maybe Dennis didn't want to stay with LA. It's not like we traded him away. |
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MIMLaker Franchise Player
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 10015 Location: Los Angeles/ Alhambra, CA
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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I blame Pelinka all day for this mess.
(1) Signed EIGHT guards after trading for Russ (THT, Nunn, Monk, Ellington, Bazemore, Reaves, Rondo, Bradley).
(2) Signed only TWO forwards as backups to LeBron and AD despite their recent serious injury history (Ariza & Melo), with both of them over the age of 35.
(3) Signed TWO centers who were both into their 30s and incapable of shooting outside, making FTs, or playing the 4 (Howard & Jordan).
(4) Signed players with repeatedly redundant skill-sets
-- PGs with triple-double skills but poor outside shooting and lack of reliable defense (Russ & Rondo)
-- undersized SGs playing spot-duty at SF due to wingspan (THT and Baze)
-- ball-handling combo guards (Nunn and Monk)
-- former SFs now better suited to PF due to lack of earlier quickness (Melo and Ariza)
(5) Traded away all of our reliable wing defenders (KCP, Caruso, Kuz) without acquiring any replacements over 6-4.
(6) Failed to re-sign our one combo small-ball 5/ stretch-4-capable reserve other than AD with no replacement (Kieff), as he signed with another team for the MINIMUM.
(7) Failed to sign/ make effort (as applicable) to multiple frontcourt players with athleticism who were under the age of 32 and who eventually signed for the MINIMUM with other teams, including:
-- Otto Porter, Jr. (GSW)
-- Isaiah Hartenstein (LAC)
-- Alize Johnson (CHI - dumped by BKN same day as DAJ, waived by CHI this weekend)
-- Al-Farouq Aminu (waived by SAS after training camp, signed by BOS to 10-day last week)
-- James Ennis (BKN last week)
-- Glenn Robinson III (still a FA)
I blame Pelinka ALL DAY. |
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troy Star Player
Joined: 30 Jan 2013 Posts: 4973
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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MIMLaker wrote: | I blame Pelinka all day for this mess.
(1) Signed EIGHT guards after trading for Russ (THT, Nunn, Monk, Ellington, Bazemore, Reaves, Rondo, Bradley).
(2) Signed only TWO forwards as backups to LeBron and AD despite their recent serious injury history (Ariza & Melo), with both of them over the age of 35.
(3) Signed TWO centers who were both into their 30s and incapable of shooting outside, making FTs, or playing the 4 (Howard & Jordan).
(4) Signed players with repeatedly redundant skill-sets
-- PGs with triple-double skills but poor outside shooting and lack of reliable defense (Russ & Rondo)
-- undersized SGs playing spot-duty at SF due to wingspan (THT and Baze)
-- ball-handling combo guards (Nunn and Monk)
-- former SFs now better suited to PF due to lack of earlier quickness (Melo and Ariza)
(5) Traded away all of our reliable wing defenders (KCP, Caruso, Kuz) without acquiring any replacements over 6-4.
(6) Failed to re-sign our one combo small-ball 5/ stretch-4-capable reserve other than AD with no replacement (Kieff), as he signed with another team for the MINIMUM.
(7) Failed to sign/ make effort (as applicable) to multiple frontcourt players with athleticism who were under the age of 32 and who eventually signed for the MINIMUM with other teams, including:
-- Otto Porter, Jr. (GSW)
-- Isaiah Hartenstein (LAC)
-- Alize Johnson (CHI - dumped by BKN same day as DAJ, waived by CHI this weekend)
-- Al-Farouq Aminu (waived by SAS after training camp, signed by BOS to 10-day last week)
-- James Ennis (BKN last week)
-- Glenn Robinson III (still a FA)
I blame Pelinka ALL DAY. |
Well, I think we have a winner. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 21064 Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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MIM - spot on. Pelinka went for the shiny new toy who gets triple doubles and in order to afford his humongous salary had to relinquish our team defense, roster balance, and any semblance of youth. Now we have a brand of basketball I can't stand watching. Lazy, uninspired, selfish, boneheaded, turnover prone basketball with flashes of greatness now and then but only flashes, they can't sustain it. |
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slavavov Star Player
Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 8288 Location: Santa Monica
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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The roster construction is flawed, but the main culprit right now is injuries.
Earlier this month we were starting to get healthy, and we got a glimpse of how it could work. We won 6 of 8, and 3 in a row, and we were finally beating teams consistently by double digits. Earlier in the season we were only beating teams by a couple of points, and we were bad in 3rd quarters - we had really improved in both categories. Plus, our defense had gotten much better.
Ever since AD went down all that budding good stuff went down the drain.
Westbrook is a flawed player, but he's fitting in OK. If the only other choice for this year's team was trading for Hield, you still trade for Westbrook because at age 36/37 you can't have LeBron be our only ball handler/floor general, especially when he's playing too many minutes.
As wolfpac said we need a couple of wings with legit forward height who are athletic, active 3-and-D players. AB, Monk and Reaves are definite keepers in the backcourt.
Will Johnson be one of those 3-and-D forwards we need? Can we get one on the buyout market and instead trade for Myles Turner to give the starting lineup enough 3-pt shooting and defense? |
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MJST Retired Number
Joined: 06 Jul 2014 Posts: 26085
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Posted: Mon Dec 27, 2021 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Injuries. Simple as that. Can't form a comradery when people can't get on the court to form one.
Mostly LeBron's health this season, and the fact we haven't played over 3 games in succession as a group together. Can't build chemistry that way. _________________ How NBA 2K18 failed the All-Time Lakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxMBYm3wwxk |
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