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Coaching or Roster |
Coaching |
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Roster |
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Total Votes : 56 |
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Laker_Jocker Star Player
Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 2799
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:52 am Post subject: Coaching or Roster? |
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Curious for opinions on what is the bigger issue that has produced this sub 500 western conference team?
A) Coaching/Preparation - Other teams have had just as many player outages. Using the health/continuity explanation for playing crappy basketball is a convenient excuse. Defensive effort/scheme is often lacking and offense/scheme is often meaningless DHOs and ISOs. Rotations have always been weird and inconsistent so its hard for players to get comfortable in their role/minutes....
B) Roster - The roster is super unbalanced and dysfunctional. Oldest roster in the league. Too many short guards. Rotational players that can't space and/or defend in space consistantly. Significant role players consisting of waiver wire AB, 2nd round pick THT, undrafted rookie Reeves, 10 day Johnson. Signing "names" as opposed to fit/ability (WB,DH,TA,DAJ). WB is clearly not a fit at least not in the "guy who wins you games" star mold (historically very rarely ever did). Monk was a hit, Baze was a miss and waiting around for Nunn may be never lead to anything.... |
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danzag Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Apr 2013 Posts: 22245 Location: Brazil
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 11:55 am Post subject: |
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Definitely roster. Not even a discussion, IMHO.
I'll give Frank the benefit of the doubt after a championship and having the league's best defense for 2 straight seasons. Despite our horrible offense |
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LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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Coaching is just the scapegoat.
At the end of the day the roster is one of old, flawed pickup basketball players. Many of whom shouldn’t even be playing in the NBA or should be in the “I’m getting paid as a player, but I’m another coach” Haslem category.
Rondo deserved that role. The guys we have now sitting on that bench have no clue about being a complete NBA player. Just has beens who had one elite skill and other minimums who try their best but are just flawed. |
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Cyberfreak444 Starting Rotation
Joined: 28 Nov 2019 Posts: 310
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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The roster is the bigger issue by far. Apart from all the reasons you outlined, it's just such a bad fit with the style that Frank Vogel coaches. He is a defensive coach who likes to play with bigger players and runs his preferred drop coverage as his base scheme. And the Lakers won a championship with that style. Now they've traded away all the defensive players and big wings they had and have instead brought in small guards and offense only players who are severely lacking in size, length, defensive effort, and defensive awareness.
Now that's not to say that the coaching this year has been passable - in fact I think it's been pretty poor. Vogel took far too long to realize that the way to get the most out of this roster is by departing from his preferred schemes and style. He took far too long to abandon the idea of playing two bigs especially given that he has Westbrook on the roster who needs space and given that the bigs have either been totally washed up (DeAndre) or pretty close to it (Dwight). He insisted on starting one washed up veteran after another from Bazemore to DeAndre to Ellington to Ariza before finally realizing each time that they couldn't play (an in each case he realized this at least five games after it was painfully obvious to anyone watching the team). He has insisted on starting Avery Bradley who does not provide adequate offense or defense to be a starter. And that's in part because he still persists in running his preferred drop scheme too often despite mostly having personnel who can't run it. Only in the last few weeks have we seen more switching, which is something Avery Bradley is not good at. His rotations have been downright bad at times. He plays Bradley and THT way too much and Reaves and Johnson far too little. At times he puts out lineups like Westbrook, THT, and Dwight at the same time killing all spacing and dooming his team to struggle to score. Moreover, given the offensive personnel this team does have, it's shocking how uncreative the playcalling has been and how little Vogel has done to put out lineups with real spacing out there.
So ultimately the roster is the biggest problem. And injuries are probably right up there as well. But the coaching has been suspect this season. And I say that as a guy who thinks highly of Vogel and who would be sad to see him lose his job after the run he's had the past couple of years with the Lakers. |
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Laker4lifer4real Star Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2017 Posts: 3472
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Coaching. Have the balls to bench Russ and bring him off to lead the second unit. |
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Laker4lifer4real Star Player
Joined: 15 Jul 2017 Posts: 3472
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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Have set plays and cutting, not just iso ball with lebron, russ, and melo. small ball with dwight is a waste. |
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Halflife Franchise Player
Joined: 15 Aug 2015 Posts: 16656
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av3773 Star Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 3750
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Not being in the top of the WC - Roster
Barely being a playoff team - Coaching |
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levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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av3773 wrote: | Not being in the top of the WC - Roster
Barely being a playoff team - Coaching |
👏 |
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lakersfever714 Franchise Player
Joined: 05 Jan 2016 Posts: 11600
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Give Vogel the 2020 roster and he'll give you a championship contender. We had the perfect young, energetic, defensive players that fit Vogel's coaching style. Then we went out and get a bunch of players who are old, slow with no stamina to play defense. Vogel can only coach what he's given with.
It's 110% the roster but Vogel will be fired because this FO makes a lot of bad decisions and firing Vogel would be one of them. |
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Lakesh0wtime Star Player
Joined: 28 Mar 2016 Posts: 5296
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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Both |
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Kobetan Star Player
Joined: 05 Sep 2020 Posts: 2941
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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As much as I want to blame the roster construction, isn't it true that for some if not most of the coaches in the NBA, that they will excel if you give them their preferred roster of guys?
So sure a defensive coach may find it hard to get this group of players to fully buy in, but an offensive coach may salivate at a chance to coach our group.
Bad fit between roster construction and coaching choice |
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Ksig Star Player
Joined: 03 Dec 2016 Posts: 2086
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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Our best role players are people who were just about packed and on there way to China to play in the CBA. Bradley is one thing; the fact that we were begging and groveling for Stanley freaking Johnson is the biggest indictment to this roster that there is. Add on to that we have two of the worst guards in the league (THT and Russ) getting major minutes (238 and 227 out of 250 nba players in RAPTOR ranking). And then we have Ariza and Melo to round out the AARP lineup.
And then one of our best role players is a rookie who gets praised because he can actually chase people off the 3 pt line and make proper rotations on defense.
Not to mention the other signings who are so bad they got outplayed by said nba castoffs and a rookie. Shout out Bazemore, DJ, Rondo*, Ellington.
Last edited by Ksig on Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:44 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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DLaker Star Player
Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 1536
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Roster,
We have been trying to fix this roster for the whole season. Started with late signing of our 12th and 13th spot (DJ and Rondo), then the injuries to THT, Nunn, Ariza. Then Russ fit as the 3rd star become obvious, his lack of shooting and handles, poor defense and his TO prone approach forced us to sign AB to be the hound Def RW could not do. Then the injuries happened to LBJ, then AD along with the covid issues, leading to the Stanley signing. Now LBJ and Carmelo out just when AD returned.
Hope: LBJ, AD, Monk, Melo, Dwight, AB, HBK & Stanley seems to know there role
Disappointment: RW fit, THT progress, Nunn's absence, Ariza and Wayne 's production
No Hope: DJ and Baze
If we can turn some of the disappointment and no hope players to a playable pieces we can still turn this around. |
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venturalakersfan Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144432 Location: The Gold Coast
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Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2022 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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It’s the roster. Built around an out of his prime star who hasn’t escaped the injury bug here and a soon to be out of his prime big who hasn’t escaped the injury bug in his NBA career. Then you trade depth for another out of his prime small guard who can’t shoot and doesn’t defend. You spend your exception on a guard who doesn’t play (not blaming anyone for that). You have a roster of small guards with backup bigs who were good 5 years ago. You overpay for a young player not ready for prime time and let the one walk who is ready, just to save money. Monk and Reaves were solid moves but Monk is likely gone after this season and Reaves the one after that. They were predicted to win 45 games, I thought 43. They likely don’t reach either number. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
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DrDent Franchise Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2016 Posts: 12975
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Vog is by no means free from criticism but...
horrific roster construction. I honestly do not think any coach can make this hodge podge frankenstein thing that is flawed really work. _________________ "One thing I admire about Kuzma is his unwavering confidence. He truly has no idea that he’s not as good as he thinks." - Killer_Z |
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LakersRGolden Star Player
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 7910 Location: Lake Forest
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Roster:
1) The roster doesn't fit the Coach. The coaching is championship capable. That's a roster issue.
2) Old and unathletic
3) Short
4) What's your lockdown defensive lineup - AD, LB and ?????
Coach:
1) Deficient on Offensive schemes.
2) Too slow to react to realities, trading wins for "big picture" goals when wins are critical. |
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TooMuchMajicBuss Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Sep 2008 Posts: 21064 Location: In a white room, with black curtains near the station
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Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Vogel won us a title and we had a roster that could defend, putting him in position to be back in title contention with some tweaks and not too many injuries.
Instead ---- we gut the roster, get rid of our best defenders and intelligent role players, and build one of the most poorly balanced NBA rosters I've ever seen. An army of players 6'4" and under, mostly over the hill and who don't play defense, nobody to start the season who can guard athletic wings with a 3, and a hysterically overpaid, overrated 'superstar' who stands around on defense.
Roster all day. Dog's breakfast of a roster. |
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Koalita Starting Rotation
Joined: 17 Dec 2010 Posts: 901
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Roster because we already knew what coach we had when we put this roster together.
Coaching can be better, but this is on roster all day long. If they wanted to use this players they should've changed coach beforehand |
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mhan00 Retired Number
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 32025
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Mostly roster, of course. Westbrook is a huge disaster. DJ sucks as badly as he did for the Nets (my reaction to hearing DJ signed with us was shock and horror). Dwight is on the edge of being done, and same with Ariza. We gave up all of our league leading defense for a crap “superstar” and replaced them with small guards who can’t defend.
But coaching hasn’t helped. Vogel’s obsession with sticking with DJ for 20+ games was questionable to say the least. His obsession with starting Bradley and playing him major minutes even after we got THT back and Reaves had shown out also raises eyebrows. |
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quartzcharm Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Mar 2016 Posts: 551
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Frank is NOT the problem. This roster is the issue. |
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Vancouver Fan Franchise Player
Joined: 17 Apr 2006 Posts: 17740
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I think ownership is the problem as well. |
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JUST-MING Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 43954
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Posted: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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Give any coach in the league four top 75 players and they could figure out how to make it work. |
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Teamof2000 Star Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2001 Posts: 2292 Location: San Francisco, CA
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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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venturalakersfan wrote: | It’s the roster. Built around an out of his prime star who hasn’t escaped the injury bug here and a soon to be out of his prime big who hasn’t escaped the injury bug in his NBA career. Then you trade depth for another out of his prime small guard who can’t shoot and doesn’t defend. You spend your exception on a guard who doesn’t play (not blaming anyone for that). You have a roster of small guards with backup bigs who were good 5 years ago. You overpay for a young player not ready for prime time and let the one walk who is ready, just to save money. Monk and Reaves were solid moves but Monk is likely gone after this season and Reaves the one after that. They were predicted to win 45 games, I thought 43. They likely don’t reach either number. |
Well said. Depressing, but well said. |
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socalsp3 Star Player
Joined: 07 Jul 2016 Posts: 3501
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Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Ty Lue would've done a better job and has the balls to bench RW |
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