Lakers + Ball Part 2
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KindCrippler2000
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:25 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
Zo was easily the worst selection out of all our no 2 picks, especially when compared to who was drafted after him.


Tatum, Fox, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Jarrett Allen. What a joke of a #2 pick. Is he officially a bust?


Then you when you take into account zo's injury history, I'd have a hard time putting over players like Anunoby, Collins, Markkanen, Kennard or even Brooks.

Heck, I might put Kuz over him now given his season at WSH.


So semi-bust or outright bust?


Not a bust by any means. The Bulls practically have zero chance of beating the Bucks without him, because he unlocks so much of their transition offense and passing game. He's still one of the most impactful players from that draft. You have to look at it within the context of team needs. He's a good fit next to Lavine and DeRozan. He went from having a busted shot to elite 3pt shooting. He can defend all 5 dudes on the court with his speed and agility. His passing is still elite. His positives overshadow the negatives. I just want to see a healthy season from him. I think he'll shock a lot of people.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:47 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
dabask11 wrote:
Zo was easily the worst selection out of all our no 2 picks, especially when compared to who was drafted after him.


Tatum, Fox, Donovan Mitchell, Bam Adebayo, Jarrett Allen. What a joke of a #2 pick. Is he officially a bust?


Then you when you take into account zo's injury history, I'd have a hard time putting over players like Anunoby, Collins, Markkanen, Kennard or even Brooks.

Heck, I might put Kuz over him now given his season at WSH.


So semi-bust or outright bust?


Not a bust by any means. The Bulls practically have zero chance of beating the Bucks without him, because he unlocks so much of their transition offense and passing game. He's still one of the most impactful players from that draft. You have to look at it within the context of team needs. He's a good fit next to Lavine and DeRozan. He went from having a busted shot to elite 3pt shooting. He can defend all 5 dudes on the court with his speed and agility. His passing is still elite. His positives overshadow the negatives. I just want to see a healthy season from him. I think he'll shock a lot of people.
Agreed, definitely not a bust. He's a pass first point guard that can score and defend. Just because he didn't turn out to be a CP3 does not mean he's a bust, not every top 5 pick is going to turn into a superstar.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 9:57 am    Post subject:

i don't think Ball guys are winning players. they put up good stats but both are kind of injury prone and don't move the needles when it comes to leading their teams into playoffs and beyond. i could be wrong, but i just don't trust these LA native guards in NBA when stage gets bigger.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:21 am    Post subject:

I think Zo is a winning player although he doesn't do the same eye popping things his brother is doing for the Hornets. The Bulls totally fell apart after he got injured. Unfortunately the injuries have really held him back. Same story with Jonathan Isaac who got picked 6th that draft. Fultz, Zo, Jackson, and Tatum were supposed to be the cream of that draft but only one of them lived up to expectations. I do think Zo can be a key part of a championship team at some point similar to Shaun Livingston who was so important to those Warrior teams at the end of his career.

As for Lamelo I'm not sure if he will be a winner at the NBA level. He makes spectacular passes but he seems more style over substance. He's obviously really young so maybe he matures.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
i don't think Ball guys are winning players. they put up good stats but both are kind of injury prone and don't move the needles when it comes to leading their teams into playoffs and beyond. i could be wrong, but i just don't trust these LA native guards in NBA when stage gets bigger.


I think Lonzo is a winning player, hes a starter on a chamoionship team caliber player. He has exceptional passing and court vision, while not being your ball handler. His improved shooting makes him a good fit to anyone and a + on the offensive end, and his defensive instincts were always elite, even when his body wasnt as developed as now. I think depending on supporting cast, he can play a major role on a contender. I dont think he can be THE major piece on a contender like Tatum, but hes still extremely valuable
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:03 am    Post subject:

Lakesh0wtime wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
We shouldn’t have had part 1 of Lonzo Ball


Alternate universe we have Tatum and BI as our franchise players.


That never happens. Tatum wouldn't even work out for the Lakers.

“He actually would not work out for the Lakers,” Bresnahan said on “The Dan Patrick Show,” “because his camp apparently thought that, ‘Well, the Lakers have Brandon Ingram. That’s good enough for them, and the Lakers are gonna go with a point guard,’ which indeed they did.”

If Tatum had worked out for the Lakers, Boston keeps the # 1 pick.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 7:28 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:

I think Lonzo is a winning player, hes a starter on a chamoionship team caliber player. He has exceptional passing and court vision, while not being your ball handler. His improved shooting makes him a good fit to anyone and a + on the offensive end, and his defensive instincts were always elite, even when his body wasnt as developed as now. I think depending on supporting cast, he can play a major role on a contender. I dont think he can be THE major piece on a contender like Tatum, but hes still extremely valuable


Lonzo is a floor raiser. The Lakers were a .500 team in games he played despite being surrounded by rookies and near rookies for his first 2 years. In games LeBron and Lonzo both played, the Lakers played .588 ball in only his 2nd year and Ingram's 3rd. The Bulls finished with a .560 winning pct, but when Lonzo was on the floor they played like .620 ball. He's not a # 1 guy by any means, but teams do a lot better when he's on the floor. I was all for the Lakers bringing back Lonzo, but it looks like he's just never going to be healthy.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 22, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
Lakesh0wtime wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
We shouldn’t have had part 1 of Lonzo Ball


Alternate universe we have Tatum and BI as our franchise players.


That never happens. Tatum wouldn't even work out for the Lakers.

“He actually would not work out for the Lakers,” Bresnahan said on “The Dan Patrick Show,” “because his camp apparently thought that, ‘Well, the Lakers have Brandon Ingram. That’s good enough for them, and the Lakers are gonna go with a point guard,’ which indeed they did.”

If Tatum had worked out for the Lakers, Boston keeps the # 1 pick.


This implies that Tatum's camp refused a Laker workout because Ainge gave him a promise to pick him knowing a) Philly would pick Fultz b) Tatum wouldn't work out for the Lakers.

This is misleading and absolves the Lakers FO of all blame for blowing that draft. Look here to see what Tatum himself said actually happened[ which I give first credence to over an indirect report.


The Lakers were lukewarm and simply didn't pursue him anywhere close to the level Ainge did. Ainge made an intensive & persuasive sales pitch, sold him on the Celtics and likely guaranteed him.I absolutely don't believe that if the Lakers had courted Tatum like they did Ball that Tatum wouldn't have given them a workout.


See this for Tatum's mindset growing up.. Someone with this kind of fandom for the Lakers and Kobe just wouldn't have refused to even listen to a Lakers pitch.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:23 am    Post subject:

It doesn't matter whether the Lakers were lukewarm about him or not. The Celtics don't trade out of the # 1 spot of the Lakers show any interest in Tatum. They could've traded the pick for Paul George and didn't. They wouldn't have left it to chance. There was no path to Tatum for the Lakers short of pulling some shenanigans that would've gotten them blackballed by other execs.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 7:55 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Lakers were lukewarm about him or not. The Celtics don't trade out of the # 1 spot of the Lakers show any interest in Tatum. They could've traded the pick for Paul George and didn't. They wouldn't have left it to chance. There was no path to Tatum for the Lakers short of pulling some shenanigans that would've gotten them blackballed by other execs.


If you're saying that Tatum would still not have been a Laker, I can buy that narrative. However proper execution would have taken away a free FRP from the Celitcs that Philly gave them, and then given the Lakers a choice between Fultz and Ball - where Fultz was the consensus #1 pick in the draft. It would have really forced the Celitcs' hand. (That Fultz hasn't yet panned out is immaterial because it is pure hindsight).

By the way, I absolutely detest Ainge. I used to think he was a useless GM with how he couldn't translate Boston's boatload of picks into a high-level contender. This particular move however was a brilliant 3D-chess move, he absolutely nailed it by not only getting Tatum, but also getting a future FRP out of Philly. He did WAY BETTER than merely getting the best player in the draft and hardly anyone gives him much credit for it; really it's one of the most unheralded draft moves ever and arguably comes close to West's Kobe gambit. Moreover his vision may actually be coming true now finally with the Celtics, where all his key guys are blossoming, much as I hate, hate, hate to admit it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 4:30 pm    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Lakers were lukewarm about him or not. The Celtics don't trade out of the # 1 spot of the Lakers show any interest in Tatum. They could've traded the pick for Paul George and didn't. They wouldn't have left it to chance. There was no path to Tatum for the Lakers short of pulling some shenanigans that would've gotten them blackballed by other execs.


Who says the Celtics need to know that we take Tatum though. You make everyone believe its Zo, then when you pick, you select Tatum
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:04 pm    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
Threatt_Level wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Lakers were lukewarm about him or not. The Celtics don't trade out of the # 1 spot of the Lakers show any interest in Tatum. They could've traded the pick for Paul George and didn't. They wouldn't have left it to chance. There was no path to Tatum for the Lakers short of pulling some shenanigans that would've gotten them blackballed by other execs.


Who says the Celtics need to know that we take Tatum though. You make everyone believe its Zo, then when you pick, you select Tatum


This too. This requires real smarts and cojones, something the Lakers FO hasn't shown recently.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2022 5:50 pm    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
Threatt_Level wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Lakers were lukewarm about him or not. The Celtics don't trade out of the # 1 spot of the Lakers show any interest in Tatum. They could've traded the pick for Paul George and didn't. They wouldn't have left it to chance. There was no path to Tatum for the Lakers short of pulling some shenanigans that would've gotten them blackballed by other execs.


Who says the Celtics need to know that we take Tatum though. You make everyone believe its Zo, then when you pick, you select Tatum


This too. This requires real smarts and cojones, something the Lakers FO hasn't shown recently.


It was Magic freaking Johnson
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:30 am    Post subject:

GOODRICH25 wrote:
Threatt_Level wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Lakers were lukewarm about him or not. The Celtics don't trade out of the # 1 spot of the Lakers show any interest in Tatum. They could've traded the pick for Paul George and didn't. They wouldn't have left it to chance. There was no path to Tatum for the Lakers short of pulling some shenanigans that would've gotten them blackballed by other execs.


Who says the Celtics need to know that we take Tatum though. You make everyone believe its Zo, then when you pick, you select Tatum


If we did take Tatum, it would've been without even seeing him work out. That's why Ainge traded the pick. Tatum wouldn't work out for the Lakers. So picking him would've been highly irresponsible. There's plenty of legitimate things to crap on Magic and Pelinka about. Picking Lonzo is not one of them.

It actually worked out for the Lakers, because if the Lakers had worked out Tatum, Boston probably keeps the # 1 pick and the Lakers could've ended up with Fultz instead. If you actually want to be mad at Magic and Pelinka, be mad at them for not picking Mitchell.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 5:35 am    Post subject:

Sorry, but Lonzo is just way too injury prone. Can't make it through a rigorous season plus the playoffs. His brother will be locked in a long term contract for the foreseeable future too. That Ball ship has sailed.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:23 am    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:


If we did take Tatum, it would've been without even seeing him work out. That's why Ainge traded the pick. Tatum wouldn't work out for the Lakers. So picking him would've been highly irresponsible. There's plenty of legitimate things to crap on Magic and Pelinka about. Picking Lonzo is not one of them. .


This is a twisting of what actually happened, I've already addressed this and provided a reference. The Lakers never gave him a serious pitch while Boston wooed him and sold him. These top athletes have always been treated like stars, they have huge egos that need to be massaged. Tatum ended up going to the prom with the one who actually asked him for a date.
A salesman that doesn't even bother selling goes home hungry 100% of the time. What the Lakers did was sheer incompetence.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:53 am    Post subject:

I wonder if having BI already there factored into why they weren't going after Tatum. Perhaps in the Lakers eyes they saw the two as redundant (see how they dumped DLO after they got Lonzo).
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 9:58 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
I wonder if having BI already there factored into why they weren't going after Tatum. Perhaps in the Lakers eyes they saw the two as redundant (see how they dumped DLO after they got Lonzo).


Sure, and if that's the case then that just confirms the incompetence.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:02 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I wonder if having BI already there factored into why they weren't going after Tatum. Perhaps in the Lakers eyes they saw the two as redundant (see how they dumped DLO after they got Lonzo).


Sure, and if that's the case then that just confirms the incompetence.


Why couldn’t Ingram and Tatum co-exist the way Jaylen Brown and Tatum co-exist? Or Paul George and Kawhi?

(I mean, obviously they could have. I’m more asking why the Lakers FO thought that.)
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:03 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I wonder if having BI already there factored into why they weren't going after Tatum. Perhaps in the Lakers eyes they saw the two as redundant (see how they dumped DLO after they got Lonzo).


Sure, and if that's the case then that just confirms the incompetence.


Yeah, IIRC, the consensus at the time was Fultz was #1 (lol).

Lonzo was a unique prospect, but there were a LOT of people who had concerns about his shooting. I can't remember if I was pro Tatum at #2, but certainly Lonzo had a lot of interesting warts too.

In theory, could have kept DLO, then drafted Tatum to pair alongside BI, but Lakers obviously didn't go that direction.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:51 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
ThePageDude wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I wonder if having BI already there factored into why they weren't going after Tatum. Perhaps in the Lakers eyes they saw the two as redundant (see how they dumped DLO after they got Lonzo).


Sure, and if that's the case then that just confirms the incompetence.


Yeah, IIRC, the consensus at the time was Fultz was #1 (lol).

Lonzo was a unique prospect, but there were a LOT of people who had concerns about his shooting. I can't remember if I was pro Tatum at #2, but certainly Lonzo had a lot of interesting warts too.

In theory, could have kept DLO, then drafted Tatum to pair alongside BI, but Lakers obviously didn't go that direction.


It wasn't just his shooting. In half court offense, Lonzo didn't seem that great at getting past his defender and into the lane. If he was able to get into the lane but not to the rim, he didn't seem comfortable using scoop shots and floaters.

IIRC, the "consensus" at the time was that Tatum had the higher floor because he seemed more polished and Lonzo had the higher ceiling because ???
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:06 am    Post subject:

No defense in the modern era is shutting down a team with both Ingram and Tatum. It's just a matter of who you want to stop from dropping 30-40. Even Zo and BI were great together, but couldn't stay healthy. I think they had a winning record here when the two of them played. Just a shame that young players are injury prone.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:12 am    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
No defense in the modern era is shutting down a team with both Ingram and Tatum. It's just a matter of who you want to stop from dropping 30-40. Even Zo and BI were great together, but couldn't stay healthy. I think they had a winning record here when the two of them played. Just a shame that young players are injury prone.


I truly think that the Lakers thought Lonzo would bring forth Showtime again. But he was too injury prone, and his inability to shoot on the Lakers hurt too. He can be an elite role player if he's more durable, but I don't think he merited a #2 pick, particularly with Tatum on the board at the same time.

I wonder if BI/Tatum played, how much that would affect their development together. And certainly having LBJ aboard, would that have just meant that BI/Tatum are on the Pels? I mean obviously would be great if you had LBJ/AD/Tatum but yeah...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:30 am    Post subject:

Lonzo's my guy since UCLA.
But he just can't stay healthy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 1:14 pm    Post subject:

Threatt_Level wrote:
GOODRICH25 wrote:
Threatt_Level wrote:
It doesn't matter whether the Lakers were lukewarm about him or not. The Celtics don't trade out of the # 1 spot of the Lakers show any interest in Tatum. They could've traded the pick for Paul George and didn't. They wouldn't have left it to chance. There was no path to Tatum for the Lakers short of pulling some shenanigans that would've gotten them blackballed by other execs.


Who says the Celtics need to know that we take Tatum though. You make everyone believe its Zo, then when you pick, you select Tatum


If we did take Tatum, it would've been without even seeing him work out. That's why Ainge traded the pick. Tatum wouldn't work out for the Lakers. So picking him would've been highly irresponsible. There's plenty of legitimate things to crap on Magic and Pelinka about. Picking Lonzo is not one of them.

It actually worked out for the Lakers, because if the Lakers had worked out Tatum, Boston probably keeps the # 1 pick and the Lakers could've ended up with Fultz instead. If you actually want to be mad at Magic and Pelinka, be mad at them for not picking Mitchell.


What do you mean, if he worked out for us, Boston wouldnt trade their pick? In that case i can understand it, but i can still question the choice. I think drafts can be chess games, and if you have a name in mind, you work your way around to get it
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