No consistency at all. Remember when Phil would literally roll out almost the same rotation game after game? You knew what was coming and when it was coming.
Now it’s just a mess. Sometimes I wonder if he’s just picking guys out of a hat.
turns out Vogel is a much better coach, lol
24-27 last season
23-28 this season
and Vogel had to deal with injuries to AD and Lebron, as well as Covid games which we had to put out 5 guard lineups.
Vogel was given no size, at least we got some young and bigger guys this season.
turns out Vogel is a much better coach, lol
24-27 last season
23-28 this season
and Vogel had to deal with injuries to AD and Lebron, as well as Covid games which we had to put out 5 guard lineups.
Vogel was given no size, at least we got some young and bigger guys this season.
Nothing against Ham, but Vogel won you a ring. I've never seen a championship head coach lose the faith of the FO and be blamed like that. It's one thing if for a while the team had been floundering and on the way down. The team won a ring his first year, the second year they overachieved with Dennis/Kuz/Caruso/KCP/Trez around AD/Bron as AD was awful/injured as was Bron half the season. The playoffs Lakers up on the Suns until AD is hurt. So, really it was just one year post-Westbrook trade + very bad vet min signings by Pelinka that led to the disaster. And even that disaster, as shown this year, it was not like a new head coach could have changed the outcome of that season.
Like I've seen guys get canned after winning a ring, but there's some sort of sound reasoning and chain of events where the team is in steady decline. This was a case of a GM/FO screwing things up, and then blaming the coach for it. It's pretty obvious.
To Pelinka's credit, we actually have made some solid moves this year roster wise. Dennis, TBryant with the vet min. Rui for Nunn/2nd rounders. Bring back Reaves, Gabriel. Pat Bev for THT. The moves have been quite solid. All geared towards a team that wants to play elite defense. Unfortuantely we don't have the coaching to scheme elite defense. Coaches like Vogel/Thibs etc would have this sort of team playing top 5-10 defense, easy. But the offense wouldn't be pretty, and that's the thing maybe. We run a lot and score a lot more points (But also give up 118-119 almost the most in the NBA). Perhaps the FO just wants to see better looking spaced offense. For sure the players look happier using these schemes on offense than Vogel's stuff. A smart move by the FO would have been to find a good replacement for Kidd instead of cleaning house.
Anyway, the team is competing and respects Ham, so maybe that's all that matters at this point. To get through the Westbrook era and get into next year.
Nothing against Ham, but Vogel won you a ring. I've never seen a championship head coach lose the faith of the FO and be blamed like that.
Somewhere out there, Paul Westhead just raised an eyebrow. From across the Atlantic, Claudio Ranieri is shaking his head. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
turns out Vogel is a much better coach, lol
24-27 last season
23-28 this season
and Vogel had to deal with injuries to AD and Lebron, as well as Covid games which we had to put out 5 guard lineups.
Vogel was given no size, at least we got some young and bigger guys this season.
Eh. I'm not seeing any evidence in this post that Vogel is the much better coach. Might very well be true, but it seems like you're just slapping on some qualifiers for Vogel but none for Ham. The records are basically identical.
For instance, this team had 7-8 guards and we started the season shooting historically bad, which is has had us down 2-10 to start with. At least Vogel had guys like Melo and Malik shooting well from 3. Vogel also never put an offense like this one together, which is frankly ridiculous for a team with Bron on it as well as the floor spacers we had last year.
You could cite Vogel's defensive schemes being more sophisticated, and I'd agree. But Ham has AD playing full-time 5 and that's done wonders for both his offense and defense. His second option is Thomas Bryant (and first option for half of the season so far), by far the worst defensive big in the league.
I don't see any clear winner using the last two seasons as sample sizes. Only clear losers: us.
The front office has failed both coaches in terms of roster construction.
Aeneas - That was Magic specifically asking for him to be removed. It was a Magic (Franchise guy in his prime) or coach type of thing.
I have yet to see a situation like the one that just transpired. That doesn't mean it will turn out to be the wrong call. Ham may well end up leading the Lakers to a title in the next few years or future. Or may end up being the right guy longterm.
I've just not seen this sort of decision making in the past. Typically coaches who win you a title unless the franchise players want you gone, get a significant period of time in the NBA. NHL? That's another story.
Anyway at this point this is like the Westbrook trade. Talking about it won't really make the trade default. We made these decisions and have to live with them as fans. Hopefully things will turn around sooner than later.
In this case, my earlier comment applies: if Beverley didn't commit a dumb foul on Brown, we aren't having this discussion. Horford took the three, and he missed it. If we get the rebound, it's game over. We don't, so Brown gets the two-pointer. So we should be getting the ball with a one-point lead and four seconds left. Game over, unless we screw it up. But we do just that, as Beverley commits a dumb foul. This is what it took for the no-foul strategy to go wrong.
Now imagine an alternative history in which Ham says "yes, foul." The ball goes to Horford. Someone runs over to foul him, but he gets the shot off. He gets three free throws, and he makes them. Or he makes a circus shot, then sinks the and-1 free throw, and we trail with 4 seconds left. Don't you know that people would be ripping Ham for fouling? Don't you know that people would be saying that he got out-coached?
I suppose this is a good topic for spirited debate, with valid viewpoints on multiple fronts. Personally, I believe the chess match between coaches is very important. The first and simplest level is not making tactical errors, which Ham is still doing. That’s to say nothing of the more challenging aspects like limiting the impact of the opposition’s strategy, and imposing your own, forcing matchups, pace, play type, etc.
The first job of a coach is to get the trust and respect of the players. Ham seems to have done a great job of that. But he’s got a ways to go before he’s a net positive coach. As to the Beverly foul, that’s an error in player execution, not strategy. Same would be the case with fouling a three point shooter. Sure, there’s the what if of a bang-bang play. But in practice, how many times have you seen that happen? There’s a lot that goes against that happening. _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night.
Nothing against Ham, but Vogel won you a ring. I've never seen a championship head coach lose the faith of the FO and be blamed like that.
ehh. we had a team full of vets and they all quit on him. Cant fire the players. Sad we had zero leadership in the locker room. Maybe as bad as dudley was he may have fixed some things.
Aeneas - That was Magic specifically asking for him to be removed. It was a Magic (Franchise guy in his prime) or coach type of thing.
Actually, it didn't really happen that way. Dr. Buss had already decided to fire Westhead. You can find accounts that discuss how it went down at the time. Here is an example. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
In this case, my earlier comment applies: if Beverley didn't commit a dumb foul on Brown, we aren't having this discussion. Horford took the three, and he missed it. If we get the rebound, it's game over. We don't, so Brown gets the two-pointer. So we should be getting the ball with a one-point lead and four seconds left. Game over, unless we screw it up. But we do just that, as Beverley commits a dumb foul. This is what it took for the no-foul strategy to go wrong.
Now imagine an alternative history in which Ham says "yes, foul." The ball goes to Horford. Someone runs over to foul him, but he gets the shot off. He gets three free throws, and he makes them. Or he makes a circus shot, then sinks the and-1 free throw, and we trail with 4 seconds left. Don't you know that people would be ripping Ham for fouling? Don't you know that people would be saying that he got out-coached?
I suppose this is a good topic for spirited debate, with valid viewpoints on multiple fronts. Personally, I believe the chess match between coaches is very important. The first and simplest level is not making tactical errors, which Ham is still doing. That’s to say nothing of the more challenging aspects like limiting the impact of the opposition’s strategy, and imposing your own, forcing matchups, pace, play type, etc.
The first job of a coach is to get the trust and respect of the players. Ham seems to have done a great job of that. But he’s got a ways to go before he’s a net positive coach. As to the Beverly foul, that’s an error in player execution, not strategy. Same would be the case with fouling a three point shooter. Sure, there’s the what if of a bang-bang play. But in practice, how many times have you seen that happen? There’s a lot that goes against that happening.
First of all, I don't buy the narrative about Ham making lots of tactical errors. I think that's mostly a product of people not understanding the situation and getting frustrated that we're losing, but part of it is also the backwards reasoning that happens on social media. Again, I saw people whining about Phil Jackson in our title years. As for the what-if of a bang-bang play, I see it happen all the time, sometimes multiple times in a single game. How many times do we say "Don't foul a jump shooter," only to see players foul them over and over? The Beverley foul was an error in execution, for sure, but the risk of error is there under any scenario. It's not just a "what if." _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
First of all, I don't buy the narrative about Ham making lots of tactical errors. I think that's mostly a product of people not understanding the situation and getting frustrated that we're losing, but part of it is also the backwards reasoning that happens on social media. Again, I saw people whining about Phil Jackson in our title years. As for the what-if of a bang-bang play, I see it happen all the time, sometimes multiple times in a single game. How many times do we say "Don't foul a jump shooter," only to see players foul them over and over? The Beverley foul was an error in execution, for sure, but the risk of error is there under any scenario. It's not just a "what if."
I'm not speaking to a narrative. It's a reaction to specific decisions he has made (most/all of which have been captured in this thread). It's critical, not reductive.
Fouling jump shooters generally comes from overzealous closeouts and poor positioning, as was the Beverly foul. There is far less risk of that in a coordinated play where the coach has called for a foul. That's not a case for always fouling, just one for qualified risk assessment.
But the perspective you're sharing has a lot of value too. I just don't happen to agree it fits the particulars of this situation. _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night.
I'm not speaking to a narrative. It's a reaction to specific decisions he has made (most/all of which have been captured in this thread). It's critical, not reductive.
turns out Vogel is a much better coach, lol
24-27 last season
23-28 this season
and Vogel had to deal with injuries to AD and Lebron, as well as Covid games which we had to put out 5 guard lineups.
Vogel was given no size, at least we got some young and bigger guys this season.
Eh. I'm not seeing any evidence in this post that Vogel is the much better coach. Might very well be true, but it seems like you're just slapping on some qualifiers for Vogel but none for Ham. The records are basically identical.
For instance, this team had 7-8 guards and we started the season shooting historically bad, which is has had us down 2-10 to start with. At least Vogel had guys like Melo and Malik shooting well from 3. Vogel also never put an offense like this one together, which is frankly ridiculous for a team with Bron on it as well as the floor spacers we had last year.
You could cite Vogel's defensive schemes being more sophisticated, and I'd agree. But Ham has AD playing full-time 5 and that's done wonders for both his offense and defense. His second option is Thomas Bryant (and first option for half of the season so far), by far the worst defensive big in the league.
I don't see any clear winner using the last two seasons as sample sizes. Only clear losers: us.
The front office has failed both coaches in terms of roster construction.
I will leave alone the 2021 season because it was not a contest.
Based on last season, we had DAJ and Dwight after AD went down and DAJ is unplayable. melo and Bron had to play 5s. Then came covid, which brought us 5 games losing streak because we have no players.
Vogel is a superior defensive coach by far, and Rob and Jeanie gave him a full team of guys that don’t play defense, you expect them to win a lot? It’s like giving MDA a team that can’t shoot. We were the best defense for a long period of time in 2021 and that was without bron and AD for a long period of time.
Aeneas - That was Magic specifically asking for him to be removed. It was a Magic (Franchise guy in his prime) or coach type of thing.
Actually, it didn't really happen that way. Dr. Buss had already decided to fire Westhead. You can find accounts that discuss how it went down at the time. Here is an example.
Magic is on the record as to saying he got him fired.
Anyway, the team is competing and respects Ham, so maybe that's all that matters at this point. To get through the Westbrook era and get into next year.
This is his saving grace. He has credibility with the team as a player that I think Vogel never really got from someone like Lebron.
They come to play and play hard every night for Ham which is not nothing.
I want to understand his logic....Gabriel has played out of his mind...yet doesnt get to play when AD plays..It seems like those 2 would be a better pairing than TB and AD...it just seems like with all the injuries we have EVERYONE ready to play...and we can take advantage of that by cutting down some mins for LBJ and AD..but nope. How does LWJr lose his minutes to PAT BEV?
I feel like this is a time to explore a more dynamic offense because everyone has gotten reps. But once WB is in the game...the ball doesnt move....he does. I just feel like it limits us as a team.
Aeneas - That was Magic specifically asking for him to be removed. It was a Magic (Franchise guy in his prime) or coach type of thing.
Actually, it didn't really happen that way. Dr. Buss had already decided to fire Westhead. You can find accounts that discuss how it went down at the time. Here is an example.
Magic is on the record as to saying he got him fired.
And now you know that Magic is wrong. This shouldn't come as a big surprise. Magic is often wrong about things. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved
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