Can the Lakers Build a Culture That's More Than Just "Superstars?"
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 3:13 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
I was totally fine with the LBJ/AD duo concept surrounded by elite role players.

Looking back, man we had it good. Look at our role players: Green/KCP/Kuz/AC/Rondo/THT/Dwight/Jav/Kieff. Good lord.

Even last year's "terrible" season, we had as role players: KCP/Kuz/AC/THT/Dennis/Trezz/Kieff, etc.

It's when we keep on going for a 3rd "superstar" that it goes downhill, especially when you have that be Russ, who is no superstar, or an all star anymore.


Having those role players was never the plan, it happened accidentally when the 3 star plan failed. Getting 3 stars was always the plan and I don’t see that changing.


Yeah. And I wish we didn't b/c we should have devoted time getting more elite role players around LBJ/AD instead of tossing them all aside to get Russ of all players.


The FO have never wanted elite role players, they have always wanted 3 stars. They failed with PG and Kawhi but finally succeeded with Westbrook. If they had been successful with PG or Kawhi those role players wouldn’t have been affordable. The focus of this FO hasn’t changed.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 3:17 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
And the Lakers "got it" when it came to this.

Shaq/Kobe + lots of elite role players = 3 championships
Kobe/Pau + lots of elite role players = 2 championships

Most recently, AD/LBJ + lots of elite role players = 2020 championship.

Then they deconstructed this roster and inexplicably went after Russ and gave up so much to get him when he's not an all star, let alone superstar player.

I know we tried to do this with going after Kawhi, and thankfully that failed. But why does this team think that going after 3 "superstars" is the way to go when history over the past nearly 25 years (6 championships) have shown a dynamic duo + elite role players works out exceedingly well for the Lakers?


Mitch got it, Pelinka has no idea.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 3:46 pm    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
nothing wrong with a 3 star system with bunch of scrubs as supporting cast. but not these kind of stars:

1. 38 year old LeBron
2. Day to Davis
3. 33 year old Russ

what an odd ball group of stars. they don't complement each other at all, and that's if no. 2 is healthy enough to play.


This is a good point. “Superstar” is a term being thrown around too frequently these days. Just because you’re being paid the max doesn’t make you a superstar IMO. I’d define superstar as a top 5-8 player.

Idk if 38 year old Lebron is that anymore, same with Davis and for sure Russ isn’t. The further away our top players are out of the 5-8 top player range the more elite our role players will have to be.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 3:49 pm    Post subject:

I think that there are only a few superstars in the league. Giannis, Jokic, maybe Luka?
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 3:58 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
I think that there are only a few superstars in the league. Giannis, Jokic, maybe Luka?


A team of Giannis, Jokic, and Luka could run shop, even if their supporting cast was you, me, and dupree.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 6:40 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
And the Lakers "got it" when it came to this.

Shaq/Kobe + lots of elite role players = 3 championships
Kobe/Pau + lots of elite role players = 2 championships

Most recently, AD/LBJ + lots of elite role players = 2020 championship.

Then they deconstructed this roster and inexplicably went after Russ and gave up so much to get him when he's not an all star, let alone superstar player.

I know we tried to do this with going after Kawhi, and thankfully that failed. But why does this team think that going after 3 "superstars" is the way to go when history over the past nearly 25 years (6 championships) have shown a dynamic duo + elite role players works out exceedingly well for the Lakers?


Once you start using terms like "elite role players" the discussion starts turning into a semantics exercise -- you might think, oh, Andrew Bynum was an "elite role player" and someone else might consider him an "all star" because he did make one all-star team.

I think it's more simple: To win a ring, you need a lot of talent, and talent that fits together well. Teams have won rings with lots of different configurations of talent, so I don't think there is a formula. You can make up any formula or approach that has worked for one team, and lots of other teams have failed with the same formula or approach because it always comes down to the specific players who are fitting into the formula.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 7:05 pm    Post subject:

SGV-Laker fan wrote:
nothing wrong with a 3 star system with bunch of scrubs as supporting cast. but not these kind of stars:

1. 38 year old LeBron
2. Day to Davis
3. 33 year old Russ

what an odd ball group of stars. they don't complement each other at all, and that's if no. 2 is healthy enough to play.


The thing is imo, you cant have them earn so much. Your "3rd wheel" cant be paid so much. James and Davis are already the 3rd highest paid duo in the NBA, rightfully so, behind Steph&Klay and Kawhi&PG.

(Before the Harden trade, him and Durant used to be up there but Nets were an exception, they still had a deep veteran team begind 3 legit superstar scorers, and now KD&Kyrie arent far off the other duos in terms of salary either.)

So after that? You add the 3rd largest contract in the league as your 3rd wheel. Thats way too much money on 3 players, so you dont have money for depth. Usually playoff rotations are 8-9 guys, but thats depending on matchups, so you still need additional players (example: McGee and Howard not playing vs Houston, then playing a lot vs Denver). After those 3, you have the MLE and the rest are players that will accept the minimum (usually washep up ring chasers). And that is simply not enough bodies for a RS, injuries and fatigue factored in, and not enough players that can give you 20mpg in any given series.

Here are examples of 3rd wheels in other successful playoff teams last few years:
Atlanta - still a young team with rookie contracts, not defined yet
Boston - Horford 27M, Kemba 34M last season
Brooklyn - Kyrie 34M, but they were a legit superteam. Simmons 31M this year
Miami - Lowry 26M, when they made the finals they had no one i think
Milwaukee - Jrue 30M
Philadephia - Harris 36M, but they had Simmons at 30M. Now Harden at 44M
Toronto - Anonuby 16M

Dallas - same as Atlanta, superstar on rookie deal
Denver - Gordon 16M. Next season MPJ 30M
GS - Green 24M. Wigging 31M
clippers - bunch of 15M guys after the big2
Memphis - rookie deals
Phoenix - Ayton was on a rookie deal
Portland - Nurkic ar 12M
Utah - Conley 21M

You could argue that few of them have the pedigree of Westbrook, but them being on low(er) deals allowed their teams more room to keep cap space for role players. Now add James, Davis and Westbrook salary together, and the difference to other teams is even bigger. Add to that the fact we gave our only sizeable contract to a player that sat out the year (THT dont count, we had bird rights)

I think its fine that we tried upping our team, Nets just lost only because of injuries (still almost went all the way), and looked unbeatable when healthy. So we tried to match up. But we simply picked the wrong guy, both in terms of fit and cost. DeRozan would allow you to keep maybe KCP and Caruso, Lowry as well iirc. McCollum makes only 30M as well. I think our season would look different with some of those guys + more depth, instead
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 7:43 pm    Post subject:

An ideal 3 stars roster construction would include:
1. Some or all of them need to take discount
2. They are at their prime and can't be injury-prone
3. Their skillset complement each other
4. There should be some players under rookie contracts and outperform what they are paid for
5. Owners willing to spend and not being cheap when trying to fill the role players
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:16 pm    Post subject:

Sounds like something Jerry West probably said when he found out, he no longer have VIP seats at Staples center.
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mad55557777
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 8:20 pm    Post subject:

3 stars was one thing, 3 aging stars is another, these guys take too much of the salary space and it is literally impossible to build anything other than VET MIN.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:22 pm    Post subject:

mad55557777 wrote:
3 stars was one thing, 3 aging stars is another, these guys take too much of the salary space and it is literally impossible to build anything other than VET MIN.


If you don't draft at least one of the stars, I don't think you can acquire three stars, who are likely max contract guys, without spending 90+% of your cap just on them.

So if that's the strategy, Jeanie better get used to paying luxury and repeater taxes.
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2022 9:32 pm    Post subject:

bluehill wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
3 stars was one thing, 3 aging stars is another, these guys take too much of the salary space and it is literally impossible to build anything other than VET MIN.


If you don't draft at least one of the stars, I don't think you can acquire three stars, who are likely max contract guys, without spending 90+% of your cap just on them.

So if that's the strategy, Jeanie better get used to paying luxury and repeater taxes.

We signed lebron which didn’t cost us anything other than money, but the other 2 should be younger max guys, AD was fine, but Russ was not. Jeanie is not a big fan of luxury tax, so I guess we can’t do what the warriors are doing.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 4:26 am    Post subject:

lakersfan8 wrote:
An ideal 3 stars roster construction would include:
1. Some or all of them need to take discount
2. They are at their prime and can't be injury-prone
3. Their skillset complement each other
4. There should be some players under rookie contracts and outperform what they are paid for
5. Owners willing to spend and not being cheap when trying to fill the role players


Wholeheartedly agree. I would add that an ideal team would also have:
6. Rotation players that bring energy and diversity of skill
7. A couple of veterans that provide leadership, mentorship, and serve as a bridge to the coaching staff (recall Rondo/Dudley)
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 6:37 am    Post subject:

The superstar or bust mentality wrecked the team. The pieces and assets were already here, even after the AD trade. This is the equivalent of your quarterback (the FO in this case) throwing a hail mary at the 5 yard line. The football just landed on someone in the crowd (Russell Westbrook).

If they just held on to 2 of their picks and kept Kuz or caruso, the rotation could have been something like Bane-Herb-Bron-Kuz-AD with Reaves/Dwight/Monk/Melo off of the bench. You have the perfect mix of young and old players. That's a team that can make a deep run and not get run out of the building every night. All 5 guys can space the floor and defend. Very similar to the unit Boston runs.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:00 am    Post subject:

with the current ownership, and fans keep bringing up ex Lakers' accomplishments from decades ago as pedigrees for front office positions today, i'll say this team's culture will never change. next big signing: 35 year old KD for 4 year max.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:16 am    Post subject:

ThePageDude wrote:
lakersfan8 wrote:
An ideal 3 stars roster construction would include:
1. Some or all of them need to take discount
2. They are at their prime and can't be injury-prone
3. Their skillset complement each other
4. There should be some players under rookie contracts and outperform what they are paid for
5. Owners willing to spend and not being cheap when trying to fill the role players


Wholeheartedly agree. I would add that an ideal team would also have:
6. Rotation players that bring energy and diversity of skill
7. A couple of veterans that provide leadership, mentorship, and serve as a bridge to the coaching staff (recall Rondo/Dudley)


If that's the ideal makeup of the roster, it's unlikely that you're going to acquire all of them or even most of them through trades, vet min signings, buyouts or the D-league. Some of those players you have to get through the draft or less-than max FA signings.

The other thing is assembling all those pieces probably doesn't happen in one year, which makes Rob's annual rebuilds so headscratching.

Again if ownership is willing to spend the money, maybe you can speed up the process, but without drafting some of those players, you get into luxury tax territory pretty quickly.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:43 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
And the Lakers "got it" when it came to this.

Shaq/Kobe + lots of elite role players = 3 championships
Kobe/Pau + lots of elite role players = 2 championships

Most recently, AD/LBJ + lots of elite role players = 2020 championship.

Then they deconstructed this roster and inexplicably went after Russ and gave up so much to get him when he's not an all star, let alone superstar player.

I know we tried to do this with going after Kawhi, and thankfully that failed. But why does this team think that going after 3 "superstars" is the way to go when history over the past nearly 25 years (6 championships) have shown a dynamic duo + elite role players works out exceedingly well for the Lakers?

Unfortunately, Pelinka is learning on the fly (No prior GM or FO experience) and his justifications for massive change were that "Kobe always added elements and improved each summer on his game and we want to improve our roster each offseason". Really, the dude would not have a job in any FO if not his connection to Kobe, that is why Jeanie got him. Pelinka would have been ok if we had him doing our FA recruiting and we had a GM/prez with extensive experience next to him. Massive failure to end up from where we were in October 2020 to April 2022. In 18 months to dismantle and put yourself in such a bad spot. I've never seen it before.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 7:48 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
And the Lakers "got it" when it came to this.

Shaq/Kobe + lots of elite role players = 3 championships
Kobe/Pau + lots of elite role players = 2 championships

Most recently, AD/LBJ + lots of elite role players = 2020 championship.

Then they deconstructed this roster and inexplicably went after Russ and gave up so much to get him when he's not an all star, let alone superstar player.

I know we tried to do this with going after Kawhi, and thankfully that failed. But why does this team think that going after 3 "superstars" is the way to go when history over the past nearly 25 years (6 championships) have shown a dynamic duo + elite role players works out exceedingly well for the Lakers?

The problem is Pelinka is learning on the fly (No prior GM or FO experience) and his justifications for massive change were that "Kobe always added elements and improved each summer on his game and we want to improve our roster each offseason".

Ok. year after bubble we had a better team on paper. According to some we win ring if not for injuries. Last year was a debacle but they swung for fences. However the reality is, we don't have a guy who can carry us as proven, so a rebuild is a must.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:24 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
And the Lakers "got it" when it came to this.

Shaq/Kobe + lots of elite role players = 3 championships
Kobe/Pau + lots of elite role players = 2 championships

Most recently, AD/LBJ + lots of elite role players = 2020 championship.

Then they deconstructed this roster and inexplicably went after Russ and gave up so much to get him when he's not an all star, let alone superstar player.

I know we tried to do this with going after Kawhi, and thankfully that failed. But why does this team think that going after 3 "superstars" is the way to go when history over the past nearly 25 years (6 championships) have shown a dynamic duo + elite role players works out exceedingly well for the Lakers?

The problem is Pelinka is learning on the fly (No prior GM or FO experience) and his justifications for massive change were that "Kobe always added elements and improved each summer on his game and we want to improve our roster each offseason".

Ok. year after bubble we had a better team on paper. According to some we win ring if not for injuries. Last year was a debacle but they swung for fences. However the reality is, we don't have a guy who can carry us as proven, so a rebuild is a must.


I think Rob has been taking home run swings for the past three years because he's remade the roster in each of those years, which is a high-risk move IMO. I can't think of another FO, that's not tanking, pursue the same approach.

Maybe Rob's figured out something that no one else has. No surprise I'm skeptical. Rob's approach would work better in fantasy basketball where everyone redrafts each season.

In the real league, there's value in developing players, team chemistry, salary cap benefits, coaching development etc, that extend and grow from one season to the next.

Rob's approach resets those intangibles every season and his new team has to figure that out in one season.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:37 am    Post subject:

bluehill wrote:
Halflife wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
And the Lakers "got it" when it came to this.

Shaq/Kobe + lots of elite role players = 3 championships
Kobe/Pau + lots of elite role players = 2 championships

Most recently, AD/LBJ + lots of elite role players = 2020 championship.

Then they deconstructed this roster and inexplicably went after Russ and gave up so much to get him when he's not an all star, let alone superstar player.

I know we tried to do this with going after Kawhi, and thankfully that failed. But why does this team think that going after 3 "superstars" is the way to go when history over the past nearly 25 years (6 championships) have shown a dynamic duo + elite role players works out exceedingly well for the Lakers?

The problem is Pelinka is learning on the fly (No prior GM or FO experience) and his justifications for massive change were that "Kobe always added elements and improved each summer on his game and we want to improve our roster each offseason".

Ok. year after bubble we had a better team on paper. According to some we win ring if not for injuries. Last year was a debacle but they swung for fences. However the reality is, we don't have a guy who can carry us as proven, so a rebuild is a must.


I think Rob has been taking home run swings for the past three years because he's remade the roster in each of those years, which is a high-risk move IMO. I can't think of another FO, that's not tanking, pursue the same approach.

Maybe Rob's figured out something that no one else has. No surprise I'm skeptical. Rob's approach would work better in fantasy basketball where everyone redrafts each season.

In the real league, there's value in developing players, team chemistry, salary cap benefits, coaching development etc, that extend and grow from one season to the next.

Rob's approach resets those intangibles every season and his new team has to figure that out in one season.

AB (after bubble) he got younger and seemingly more talented. i don't know if that is swinging for the fences. Year2 AB, he gambled, but when your superstars demand a player teams tend to bend or suffer the consequences ( see packers). It failed, but we also learned a lot about our 2 celebrities on the team.

bron is old, breaks down and cant carry us
AD is nowhere near being a #1, doesn't have that "it" factor and is borderline fragile.

So for as big as a failure as this season was , its clear what we need to do to keep up with the joneses.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:50 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
bluehill wrote:
Halflife wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
And the Lakers "got it" when it came to this.

Shaq/Kobe + lots of elite role players = 3 championships
Kobe/Pau + lots of elite role players = 2 championships

Most recently, AD/LBJ + lots of elite role players = 2020 championship.

Then they deconstructed this roster and inexplicably went after Russ and gave up so much to get him when he's not an all star, let alone superstar player.

I know we tried to do this with going after Kawhi, and thankfully that failed. But why does this team think that going after 3 "superstars" is the way to go when history over the past nearly 25 years (6 championships) have shown a dynamic duo + elite role players works out exceedingly well for the Lakers?

The problem is Pelinka is learning on the fly (No prior GM or FO experience) and his justifications for massive change were that "Kobe always added elements and improved each summer on his game and we want to improve our roster each offseason".

Ok. year after bubble we had a better team on paper. According to some we win ring if not for injuries. Last year was a debacle but they swung for fences. However the reality is, we don't have a guy who can carry us as proven, so a rebuild is a must.


I think Rob has been taking home run swings for the past three years because he's remade the roster in each of those years, which is a high-risk move IMO. I can't think of another FO, that's not tanking, pursue the same approach.

Maybe Rob's figured out something that no one else has. No surprise I'm skeptical. Rob's approach would work better in fantasy basketball where everyone redrafts each season.

In the real league, there's value in developing players, team chemistry, salary cap benefits, coaching development etc, that extend and grow from one season to the next.

Rob's approach resets those intangibles every season and his new team has to figure that out in one season.

AB (after bubble) he got younger and seemingly more talented. i don't know if that is swinging for the fences. Year2 AB, he gambled, but when your superstars demand a player teams tend to bend or suffer the consequences ( see packers). It failed, but we also learned a lot about our 2 celebrities on the team.

bron is old, breaks down and cant carry us
AD is nowhere near being a #1, doesn't have that "it" factor and is borderline fragile.

So for as big as a failure as this season was , its clear what we need to do to keep up with the joneses.


You're right. There was less turnover on that 20-21 roster than I remembered.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:07 am    Post subject:

bluehill wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
3 stars was one thing, 3 aging stars is another, these guys take too much of the salary space and it is literally impossible to build anything other than VET MIN.


If you don't draft at least one of the stars, I don't think you can acquire three stars, who are likely max contract guys, without spending 90+% of your cap just on them.

So if that's the strategy, Jeanie better get used to paying luxury and repeater taxes.


You can but you get what we have, sign a star in his mid to late 30’s. The CBA is set up to allow teams an advantage in keeping their own players and by pissing away draft picks, we guarantee that we have to take leftovers.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 10:58 am    Post subject:

bluehill wrote:


I think Rob has been taking home run swings for the past three years because he's remade the roster in each of those years, which is a high-risk move IMO. I can't think of another FO, that's not tanking, pursue the same approach.


While some of the individual moves can be defended, I have always been puzzled by the sum of Rob's moves. He seems to favor change for the sake of change, and change for the sake of adding names. But, as far as I can detect, he has no philosophy or strategy to team building. He's a "flow spaghetti against the wall and sees what sticks" GM.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 11:12 am    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
Star power didn’t go away and never will.

What you can’t do is completely cheap out or disregard team building and legit basketball ops.

We have the perfect example in this market. Dodgers and Angels for the past decade. The Dodgers have stars but don’t cut corners or ignore key departments in baseball ops. They have an embarrassment of riches and that’s why they keep winning and sustain.

The Angels are the Jeanie model. Spend big $$ on the stars and ignore other areas. We see the results. Moreno is the Jeanie of baseball.


As an Angels fan, that hurts but is the absolute TRUTH! Been a brutal decade to be a Laker (bubble title withstanding), Angels and SC Football fan. I love Arte too but the decision making has been horrific.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 11:59 am    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
bluehill wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
3 stars was one thing, 3 aging stars is another, these guys take too much of the salary space and it is literally impossible to build anything other than VET MIN.


If you don't draft at least one of the stars, I don't think you can acquire three stars, who are likely max contract guys, without spending 90+% of your cap just on them.

So if that's the strategy, Jeanie better get used to paying luxury and repeater taxes.


You can but you get what we have, sign a star in his mid to late 30’s. The CBA is set up to allow teams an advantage in keeping their own players and by pissing away draft picks, we guarantee that we have to take leftovers.


It's a delicate equation. You have to draft a guy who looks enough like a star on his rookie contract to attract an established star. An example would be Lebron going to Cleveland, where Kyrie was an all-star twice in his first three years. Most established stars aren't going to join up with young players based on their potential.
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