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Alpha
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 Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ^thanks. I misunderstood your response. Hard to measure that tho unless we dig into the vaults and view games when they were teammates but when either didn't play. If not, it's tough to gauge when they were on different teams, or with the Bulls with different supporting casts/coaches. My guess tho, if neither played with each other, MJ would potentially still be in the top 5 convo and Pip would not. |
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danzag
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Alpha wrote: | | My guess tho, if neither played with each other, MJ would potentially still be in the top 5 convo and Pip would not. |
Agree. |
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Halflife
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| danzag wrote: | | Alpha wrote: | | My guess tho, if neither played with each other, MJ would potentially still be in the top 5 convo and Pip would not. |
Agree. |
no question but I do think in regard to fit, pip was tailor-made for MJ. I don't know if you just put anyone next to MJ if he has 6 in the fashion he got them. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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Pippen has a claim on best #2.
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Scotties career without mj is better than mjs without pip. |
You dont have great sample size for that, MJ was first 3 seaaons without Pippen and last 2 after a long retirement. Id still put that MJ above Pippen as a player, not talking about accomplishments. But if each played the whole careers without each other, Bulls still figure it out, MJ would still be a GOAT candidate and Pippen would still be a 5-6 times all star in a 17 season career, maybe/probably not make the top50 all time list. Maybe hed win a championship or two but never as a 1st option and on a loaded team
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Alpha wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Scotties career without mj is better than mjs without pip. |
I had to read that twice. Both had skills obviously but IMO MJ's mental strength vaults him in the top 5 discussion... and conversely, why Pip is never in anyone else's. |
mj>>>>>>>>>>pip but what each guy did without the other IMHO pip>MJ |
I think you underrate the young Jordan. He averaged 37 ppg without Pippen. He was first team all NBA without Pippen. He was second in the MVP voting without Pippen. Heck, he finished behind only Magic of the '87 Lakers, even though the Bulls had a losing record. Before Pippen came along, a lot of people regarded Jordan as the best player in the league. The next year, he won the MVP with Pippen averaging 20 mpg off the bench.
Pippen really had one good year without Jordan, and everyone will remember it for his refusal to play in the dying seconds of a playoff game because PJ called a play for Kukoc. He went on to play for good teams in Houston and Portland, but he was never an all-star again. He was basically a famous defensive role player at that point.
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Brawn13
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| jonnybravo wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Black20Ice wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | scottie was nasty. |
Yes, he was. I never could stand that Bulls dynasty but respect to one of the best two-way players to ever play the game. There isn't a player in this era that is on his prime level as a defender. |
maybe freak when he's dialed in but that's it and even that's a big maybe. |
Klaw was, 7 years ago. |
And it's light years harder to play defense on the perimeter today compared to the 80s and 90s. No handcheck, goons like Harden initiating all contact and getting the whistle, ticky tack bump fouls... |
True. It’s much more impressive to be a lockdown defender in this era when rules are so in favor of the offense, especially beneficial for the guards today |
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Halflife
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Brawn13 wrote: | | jonnybravo wrote: | | Dr. Laker wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Black20Ice wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | scottie was nasty. |
Yes, he was. I never could stand that Bulls dynasty but respect to one of the best two-way players to ever play the game. There isn't a player in this era that is on his prime level as a defender. |
maybe freak when he's dialed in but that's it and even that's a big maybe. |
Klaw was, 7 years ago. |
And it's light years harder to play defense on the perimeter today compared to the 80s and 90s. No handcheck, goons like Harden initiating all contact and getting the whistle, ticky tack bump fouls... |
True. It’s much more impressive to be a lockdown defender in this era when rules are so in favor of the offense, especially beneficial for the guards today |
There aren’t lock down defenders. |
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deal
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | Alpha wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Scotties career without mj is better than mjs without pip. |
I had to read that twice. Both had skills obviously but IMO MJ's mental strength vaults him in the top 5 discussion... and conversely, why Pip is never in anyone else's. |
mj>>>>>>>>>>pip but what each guy did without the other IMHO pip>MJ |
MJ is the GOAT, everyone else is measured against him.
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Beir32
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| Posted: Fri May 06, 2022 9:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Halflife wrote: | | scottie was nasty. |
Scottie was the 1990’s version of Kawhi. |
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Beir32 wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | scottie was nasty. |
Scottie was the 1990’s version of Kawhi. |
Much better actually. Kawhi a fearsome man defender, but Scottie was better all over the floor as a help defender.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Alpha wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Scotties career without mj is better than mjs without pip. |
I had to read that twice. Both had skills obviously but IMO MJ's mental strength vaults him in the top 5 discussion... and conversely, why Pip is never in anyone else's. |
mj>>>>>>>>>>pip but what each guy did without the other IMHO pip>MJ |
I think you underrate the young Jordan. He averaged 37 ppg without Pippen. He was first team all NBA without Pippen. He was second in the MVP voting without Pippen. Heck, he finished behind only Magic of the '87 Lakers, even though the Bulls had a losing record. Before Pippen came along, a lot of people regarded Jordan as the best player in the league. The next year, he won the MVP with Pippen averaging 20 mpg off the bench.
Pippen really had one good year without Jordan, and everyone will remember it for his refusal to play in the dying seconds of a playoff game because PJ called a play for Kukoc. He went on to play for good teams in Houston and Portland, but he was never an all-star again. He was basically a famous defensive role player at that point. |
Jordan was an Uber scorer before Pippen, but he didn’t really win anything. Pippen unleashed jordan to do his thing while Pippen guarded the best opponent, kept everyone fed, and kept the locker room together. It wasn’t just Pippen of course. Ho Grant came in too, and Jackson (although the team was pretty good when he got it). There’s a significant chance without those things that jordan is an all time great as a scorer, but the titles elevated him, and Pippen has a ton to do with those.
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PenG_
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| Scottie was Kawhi for the price of a 6th man |
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activeverb
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Alpha wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Scotties career without mj is better than mjs without pip. |
I had to read that twice. Both had skills obviously but IMO MJ's mental strength vaults him in the top 5 discussion... and conversely, why Pip is never in anyone else's. |
mj>>>>>>>>>>pip but what each guy did without the other IMHO pip>MJ |
I think you underrate the young Jordan. He averaged 37 ppg without Pippen. He was first team all NBA without Pippen. He was second in the MVP voting without Pippen. Heck, he finished behind only Magic of the '87 Lakers, even though the Bulls had a losing record. Before Pippen came along, a lot of people regarded Jordan as the best player in the league. The next year, he won the MVP with Pippen averaging 20 mpg off the bench.
Pippen really had one good year without Jordan, and everyone will remember it for his refusal to play in the dying seconds of a playoff game because PJ called a play for Kukoc. He went on to play for good teams in Houston and Portland, but he was never an all-star again. He was basically a famous defensive role player at that point. |
It's not exactly apples-to-apples since Pippen played with MJ until age 33, which is a typical age to begin to decline. That said, Pippen's stints in Houston and Portland were disappointments. He was on a couple of super teams that under performed.
Pippen always struck me as a perfect #2. But it's hard to imagine how anyone could suggest he was ever as good as or better than MJ. |
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CandyCanes
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Beir32 wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | scottie was nasty. |
Scottie was the 1990’s version of Kawhi. |
Much better actually. Kawhi a fearsome man defender, but Scottie was better all over the floor as a help defender. |
Do you guys think Pippen would have been regarded on the same (or higher) level of stardom as Kawhi had he been the #1 guy?
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I think you underrate the young Jordan. He averaged 37 ppg without Pippen. He was first team all NBA without Pippen. He was second in the MVP voting without Pippen. Heck, he finished behind only Magic of the '87 Lakers, even though the Bulls had a losing record. Before Pippen came along, a lot of people regarded Jordan as the best player in the league. The next year, he won the MVP with Pippen averaging 20 mpg off the bench.
Pippen really had one good year without Jordan, and everyone will remember it for his refusal to play in the dying seconds of a playoff game because PJ called a play for Kukoc. He went on to play for good teams in Houston and Portland, but he was never an all-star again. He was basically a famous defensive role player at that point. |
Jordan was an Uber scorer before Pippen, but he didn’t really win anything. Pippen unleashed jordan to do his thing while Pippen guarded the best opponent, kept everyone fed, and kept the locker room together. It wasn’t just Pippen of course. Ho Grant came in too, and Jackson (although the team was pretty good when he got it). There’s a significant chance without those things that jordan is an all time great as a scorer, but the titles elevated him, and Pippen has a ton to do with those. |
That’s a different question. The other poster is arguing that Pippen had a better career without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen. You’re talking about Jordan and Pippen together.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| CandyCanes wrote: | | Do you guys think Pippen would have been regarded on the same (or higher) level of stardom as Kawhi had he been the #1 guy? |
No. He might have been successful, but his ceiling would probably be closer to George than Leonard. To be clear, I’m not saying that George and Pippen are analogous as players. I’m talking about the level of stardom.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| activeverb wrote: | It's not exactly apples-to-apples since Pippen played with MJ until age 33, which is a typical age to begin to decline. That said, Pippen's stints in Houston and Portland were disappointments. He was on a couple of super teams that under performed.
Pippen always struck me as a perfect #2. But it's hard to imagine how anyone could suggest he was ever as good as or better than MJ. |
It’s not apples-to-apples at all, but that’s the way that the other poster framed it.
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Omar Little
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I think you underrate the young Jordan. He averaged 37 ppg without Pippen. He was first team all NBA without Pippen. He was second in the MVP voting without Pippen. Heck, he finished behind only Magic of the '87 Lakers, even though the Bulls had a losing record. Before Pippen came along, a lot of people regarded Jordan as the best player in the league. The next year, he won the MVP with Pippen averaging 20 mpg off the bench.
Pippen really had one good year without Jordan, and everyone will remember it for his refusal to play in the dying seconds of a playoff game because PJ called a play for Kukoc. He went on to play for good teams in Houston and Portland, but he was never an all-star again. He was basically a famous defensive role player at that point. |
Jordan was an Uber scorer before Pippen, but he didn’t really win anything. Pippen unleashed jordan to do his thing while Pippen guarded the best opponent, kept everyone fed, and kept the locker room together. It wasn’t just Pippen of course. Ho Grant came in too, and Jackson (although the team was pretty good when he got it). There’s a significant chance without those things that jordan is an all time great as a scorer, but the titles elevated him, and Pippen has a ton to do with those. |
That’s a different question. The other poster is arguing that Pippen had a better career without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen. You’re talking about Jordan and Pippen together. |
Hard to quantify who they would have played with.
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Halflife
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Sat May 07, 2022 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | I think you underrate the young Jordan. He averaged 37 ppg without Pippen. He was first team all NBA without Pippen. He was second in the MVP voting without Pippen. Heck, he finished behind only Magic of the '87 Lakers, even though the Bulls had a losing record. Before Pippen came along, a lot of people regarded Jordan as the best player in the league. The next year, he won the MVP with Pippen averaging 20 mpg off the bench.
Pippen really had one good year without Jordan, and everyone will remember it for his refusal to play in the dying seconds of a playoff game because PJ called a play for Kukoc. He went on to play for good teams in Houston and Portland, but he was never an all-star again. He was basically a famous defensive role player at that point. |
Jordan was an Uber scorer before Pippen, but he didn’t really win anything. Pippen unleashed jordan to do his thing while Pippen guarded the best opponent, kept everyone fed, and kept the locker room together. It wasn’t just Pippen of course. Ho Grant came in too, and Jackson (although the team was pretty good when he got it). There’s a significant chance without those things that jordan is an all time great as a scorer, but the titles elevated him, and Pippen has a ton to do with those. |
That’s a different question. The other poster is arguing that Pippen had a better career without Jordan than Jordan had without Pippen. You’re talking about Jordan and Pippen together. |
Hard to quantify who they would have played with. |
I think you're still misunderstanding the question, but never mind. I'm just commenting on a oddball comment by another poster in an oddball thread.
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non-player zealot
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Scott was a great overall player in the truest sense. Always atop or among top in all stat cats on his team. Not much of a clutch player, tho. Imo. Reason Phil didn't want him taking that shot vs NY. Other than that, he at least is in the discussion for top 3. Don't think I'd call him a definitive 1A tho. I wouldn't call him a supserstar, either. Kinda reminds me of Worthy in that respect. Scott did w/o an iota of a doubt have one of the best basketball physiques, measurables, wingspans, hands of ANY player ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1hfI8kjriM
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GOODRICH25
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| Posted: Sun May 08, 2022 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Omar Little wrote: | | Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Alpha wrote: | | Halflife wrote: | | Scotties career without mj is better than mjs without pip. |
I had to read that twice. Both had skills obviously but IMO MJ's mental strength vaults him in the top 5 discussion... and conversely, why Pip is never in anyone else's. |
mj>>>>>>>>>>pip but what each guy did without the other IMHO pip>MJ |
I think you underrate the young Jordan. He averaged 37 ppg without Pippen. He was first team all NBA without Pippen. He was second in the MVP voting without Pippen. Heck, he finished behind only Magic of the '87 Lakers, even though the Bulls had a losing record. Before Pippen came along, a lot of people regarded Jordan as the best player in the league. The next year, he won the MVP with Pippen averaging 20 mpg off the bench.
Pippen really had one good year without Jordan, and everyone will remember it for his refusal to play in the dying seconds of a playoff game because PJ called a play for Kukoc. He went on to play for good teams in Houston and Portland, but he was never an all-star again. He was basically a famous defensive role player at that point. |
Jordan was an Uber scorer before Pippen, but he didn’t really win anything. Pippen unleashed jordan to do his thing while Pippen guarded the best opponent, kept everyone fed, and kept the locker room together. It wasn’t just Pippen of course. Ho Grant came in too, and Jackson (although the team was pretty good when he got it). There’s a significant chance without those things that jordan is an all time great as a scorer, but the titles elevated him, and Pippen has a ton to do with those. |
It was 3 seasons and it's not really without Pippen but more like on terrible teams.
Who are the best players Pippen guarded? Jordan guarded just as many, if not more "best players". Jordan averaged more assists per game for their time together, both in RS and in playoffs. Don't know about locker room stuff but on court impact is not close from the two.
Yes it was Ho Grant too, and Cartwright and Paxson and Hodges and BJ Armstrong. It was a very good team. It was still Jordan who elevated them to a dynasty, and he made Pippen more than Pippen made him. If they didn't draft Pippen, then don't win 6. But they win championships. How many? Who knows. But I know that Pippen would have never won as the lead guy, maybe on the Knicks behind Ewing or Rockets behind Olajuwon, but definitely never 6.
I think it was a well built team around a once in a lifetime player, with the pieces gelling well, no way a team wins 6 in a decade otherwise.
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moonriver24
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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Great picks by Pippen.
I will match with:
Jason Kidd
Kobe
Lebron
Duncan
Hakeem
This lineup can
- shoot three
- run fastbreaks as well as the other team
- provide great offense and defense
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kobe8One
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2022 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Without MJ there's no Pippen. Pippen was good but not great. Houston and Portland proved it. Pippen can be replaced not MJ. This is why Chicago never paid him top $$$$ and he accepted it. |
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