Was passing on Jayson Tatum the biggest draft blunder in the history of the franchise?
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Was passing on Tatum the biggest draft blunder in the history of the Lakers?
yes
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no
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 56%  [ 18 ]
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2022 1:26 pm    Post subject:

Runway8 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
hydrohead wrote:
you know who would not have passed on Tatum?
Jerry West
You know who was begging to be part of the franchise when Jeanie took over?
Jerry West
Instead she was conned by Magic who ended up quitting a job he didn’t even work hard at.

while Jerry west was great and all, his record of drafting was pretty bad.


Huh?

West had a great drafting record. He constantly found gems late in the draft.


The Buss children are finding gems late in the draft. I don't put a lot of stock in this. These are no pressure picks. People don't remember the misses. But I do. I was excited about the Sam Jacobsen and the Frankie Kings. LOL! I'm pretty sure JW draft record wouldn't look that different from most GM's. He wanted Sidney Moncrief over Magic. In Memphis, he admitted to making a mistake in Drew Gooden at #4 over Amare. JW benefitted from Magic Johnson's elevator up. But the Shaq/Kobe summer cemented his legend. You need to be good, but as Chick used to say, "If you're both good and lucky, watch out!"


I disagree. West got lots of good players late in the draft: AC Greene at 23, Vlade Divac at 26, Elden Campbell at 27, Nick Van Exel at 37, Derek Fisher at 24. And of course, he saw potential in Kobe that others missed.

No GM is perfect at drafting, but your examples of Jacobson and King are odd. Jacobson was drafted 26 and King in the second round at 37. It's not like they were huge misses given their low draft spots. Only one significant player, Eric Snow, was drafted after King.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:53 pm    Post subject:

Yes. May turn out to be close to the biggest blunder in the history of the league. Having watched him at UCLA I wondered what was I missing?

Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:28 pm    Post subject:

eznoh wrote:
Yes. May turn out to be close to the biggest blunder in the history of the league. Having watched him at UCLA I wondered what was I missing?

Mike


You saw Zo's games at UCLA and didn't think much of him?

A big guard with athleticism and great defense, instincts, passing.
And he was an unreal 70% at the rim and 40% from 3.
An analytic's dream shot chart.
He was an amplifier of talent that got TJ and Ike drafted that summer.
I thought he was gifted.

Obviously there's some Monday morning quarterbacking going on here.
Btw, I think most people wanted Fultz.
Followed by Zo.
Some wanted Tatum without even seeing him play.
And some goofs wanted Josh Jackson or Fox with the pick.
That was actually a good summer to talk about who we should pick.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:54 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
Runway8 wrote:
activeverb wrote:
mad55557777 wrote:
hydrohead wrote:
you know who would not have passed on Tatum?
Jerry West
You know who was begging to be part of the franchise when Jeanie took over?
Jerry West
Instead she was conned by Magic who ended up quitting a job he didn’t even work hard at.

while Jerry west was great and all, his record of drafting was pretty bad.


Huh?

West had a great drafting record. He constantly found gems late in the draft.


The Buss children are finding gems late in the draft. I don't put a lot of stock in this. These are no pressure picks. People don't remember the misses. But I do. I was excited about the Sam Jacobsen and the Frankie Kings. LOL! I'm pretty sure JW draft record wouldn't look that different from most GM's. He wanted Sidney Moncrief over Magic. In Memphis, he admitted to making a mistake in Drew Gooden at #4 over Amare. JW benefitted from Magic Johnson's elevator up. But the Shaq/Kobe summer cemented his legend. You need to be good, but as Chick used to say, "If you're both good and lucky, watch out!"


I disagree. West got lots of good players late in the draft: AC Greene at 23, Vlade Divac at 26, Elden Campbell at 27, Nick Van Exel at 37, Derek Fisher at 24. And of course, he saw potential in Kobe that others missed.

No GM is perfect at drafting, but your examples of Jacobson and King are odd. Jacobson was drafted 26 and King in the second round at 37. It's not like they were huge misses given their low draft spots. Only one significant player, Eric Snow, was drafted after King.

these are over the span of 21 years, these are mediocre for a great GM like him, so to assume he wouldn't pass on Tatum is reaching..
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 11:02 pm    Post subject:

Tatum was the safest top 5 pick...by far.

Fox torched Ball... utterly embarrassing him in a pivotal matchup but Fox awas not on Tatum's level.

Fultz was way overhyped and I still can't believe a team traded up with Boston to get him.

Lakers had their shot at Tatum.. and wet their pants. That stench centers around Magic and his influence on the FO at the time.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:20 am    Post subject:

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The Celtics had the No. 1 pick, but traded down with Philadelphia, which used the pick to select University of Washington guard Markelle Fultz. The Lakers sat at No. 2 and were fixated on UCLA point guard Lonzo Ball. They didn't even bring Tatum in for a workout. The reasons for these decisions are painful to revisit for those who made them, and somewhat lost to history because the principals -- Bryan Colangelo (Philadelphia) and Magic Johnson (Lakers) -- are no longer in their roles.

Tatum saw them as slights and used them as motivation.

"The Lakers were my favorite team, and Kobe was my favorite player," says Tatum, who wore a purple No. 24 wristband to honor Bryant in Boston's win against the Miami Heat in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference finals. "So it was crazy that the Lakers had the second pick and I was so close to a dream come true. But it was just like they didn't want anything to do with me at the time."

The Sixers at least worked him out, but simply preferred Fultz's skill set -- he was seen as a better shooter and passer -- to pair with their budding young stars, Joel Embiid and Ben Simmons.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:29 am    Post subject:

If the Lakers indeed had a chance with Tatum and choose to not even bring him in and just focus on sub par Lonzo, this indeed is the biggest draft blunder ever for the Lakers at least.

To not even bring him in.....

Lonzo, just his shooting form at the time would have been a hard pass for me, if I was Rob/Magic. Sure, big, athletic, good passer but that form was horrific.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:54 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
eznoh wrote:
Yes. May turn out to be close to the biggest blunder in the history of the league. Having watched him at UCLA I wondered what was I missing?

Mike


You saw Zo's games at UCLA and didn't think much of him?

A big guard with athleticism and great defense, instincts, passing.
And he was an unreal 70% at the rim and 40% from 3.
An analytic's dream shot chart.
He was an amplifier of talent that got TJ and Ike drafted that summer.
I thought he was gifted.

Obviously there's some Monday morning quarterbacking going on here.
Btw, I think most people wanted Fultz.
Followed by Zo.
Some wanted Tatum without even seeing him play.
And some goofs wanted Josh Jackson or Fox with the pick.
That was actually a good summer to talk about who we should pick.

His defense was not touted in college, on the contrary it was considered an area of improvement for him.

He had a horrendous shooting form and a below average FT% (which has historically been a better predictor of shooting translating to the NBA.) He also had a below average handle for a guard (still does) and struggled in the pick and roll (the staple set in the modern NBA.) He was not a sure fire pick, contrary to what Magic tried to sell to Laker fans. Tatum’s biggest weakness was that he was “too polished” and scouts thought he reached his limit offensively. One of the worst draft blunders. The fact that Boston (who was in need of a guard and already had Brown as their starting swingman) passed on both Fultz and Lonzo shows you how superior their scouting was. Magic dropped the ball.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:01 pm    Post subject:

anth2000 wrote:
If the Lakers indeed had a chance with Tatum and choose to not even bring him in and just focus on sub par Lonzo, this indeed is the biggest draft blunder ever for the Lakers at least.

To not even bring him in.....

Lonzo, just his shooting form at the time would have been a hard pass for me, if I was Rob/Magic. Sure, big, athletic, good passer but that form was horrific.


I get the appeal of Lonzo as being sort of a Jason Kidd type of player. But Kidd in college was electric athletically, had an NBA body, and so many other readily apparent skills. That Kentucky v. UCLA game where Fox just stole Lonzo's soul sort of game me some concerns about Lonzo, but yeah.

Not sure if the Celtics would have just kept the #1 pick and used on Tatum anyways but it was a risk for them to trade down.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:44 am    Post subject:

yes. it would have kept the celtics from winning more championships than the lakers
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:46 am    Post subject:

anyone who thinks tatum would have been kept in AD deal hasn't been paying attention.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:52 am    Post subject:

eznoh wrote:
Yes. May turn out to be close to the biggest blunder in the history of the league. Having watched him at UCLA I wondered what was I missing?

Mike


It's not close to the biggest blunder. I think the thread is blown out of proportion.

What you were missing.

1. His finishing at the rim was left handed, not right handed.
2. That the Lakers would utilize him in the same way as UCLA. Instead, they made him the lead PG when UCLA made him a secondary playmaker next to Aaron Holiday.
3. Total lack of ability to change directions and really manipulate defenses out of a classic PnR set up.
4. UCLA's playbook that often led to 1 step advantages and movement shooting, that rarely translates to the NBA level because NBA defenders are bigger, longer, and faster, and teammates can't screen those guys off well.
5. His total lack of midrange game out of PnR.

So, he's a secondary playmaker, not a lead playmaker. Guess why he looks good in Chicago? Because LaVine does all the hard work, while Lonzo is a specialist as a secondary playmaker, spot up shooter, and point of attack defender.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:55 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
eznoh wrote:
Yes. May turn out to be close to the biggest blunder in the history of the league. Having watched him at UCLA I wondered what was I missing?

Mike


It's not close to the biggest blunder. I think the thread is blown out of proportion.

What you were missing.

1. His finishing at the rim was left handed, not right handed.
2. That the Lakers would utilize him in the same way as UCLA. Instead, they made him the lead PG when UCLA made him a secondary playmaker next to Aaron Holiday.
3. Total lack of ability to change directions and really manipulate defenses out of a classic PnR set up.
4. UCLA's playbook that often led to 1 step advantages and movement shooting, that rarely translates to the NBA level because NBA defenders are bigger, longer, and faster, and teammates can't screen those guys off well.
5. His total lack of midrange game out of PnR.

So, he's a secondary playmaker, not a lead playmaker. Guess why he looks good in Chicago? Because LaVine does all the hard work, while Lonzo is a specialist as a secondary playmaker, spot up shooter, and point of attack defender.


So Lonzo’s selling point is his elite playmaking but he can’t even be the main playmaker?

Interesting that the year before we drafted Russell, who was supposedly an elite playmaker but also couldn’t be the main playmaker.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:59 am    Post subject:

^People often generalize the word playmaking and don't specify the context.

This is why I had Tatum #2 before the draft, and just accepted that Lonzo would eventually be drafted by LAL because I don't trust Magic's decision-making off the floor.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:17 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
anth2000 wrote:
If the Lakers indeed had a chance with Tatum and choose to not even bring him in and just focus on sub par Lonzo, this indeed is the biggest draft blunder ever for the Lakers at least.

To not even bring him in.....

Lonzo, just his shooting form at the time would have been a hard pass for me, if I was Rob/Magic. Sure, big, athletic, good passer but that form was horrific.


I get the appeal of Lonzo as being sort of a Jason Kidd type of player. But Kidd in college was electric athletically, had an NBA body, and so many other readily apparent skills. That Kentucky v. UCLA game where Fox just stole Lonzo's soul sort of game me some concerns about Lonzo, but yeah.

Not sure if the Celtics would have just kept the #1 pick and used on Tatum anyways but it was a risk for them to trade down.


Never impressed by Kidd in Dallas which is the version that was chosen #2. Boy did Nick Van Exel used to rip him to shreds - Him, Gary Payton, Anfernee Hardaway and Ron Harper on the Jordan Bulls seemed like they were guys ear-marked to be destroyed by Nick the Quick - which is especially ironic since every single one of these guys listed on here were very much plus defenders when Van Exel used to torch them
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:47 pm    Post subject:

Nope. The blunder wasn't missing out on Tatum. It was the pattern of discarding young talent and not developing them to their fullest capabilities. Rob's vision did not align with any kind of development. And I actually thought Zo was the right pick at the time. He proved that by doing what he was supposed to do and dominating the summer league with some crazy stat lines. The wheels started falling apart after the injuries. You can't pin that on Zo.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 1:57 pm    Post subject:

1995Lakers wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
anth2000 wrote:
If the Lakers indeed had a chance with Tatum and choose to not even bring him in and just focus on sub par Lonzo, this indeed is the biggest draft blunder ever for the Lakers at least.

To not even bring him in.....

Lonzo, just his shooting form at the time would have been a hard pass for me, if I was Rob/Magic. Sure, big, athletic, good passer but that form was horrific.


I get the appeal of Lonzo as being sort of a Jason Kidd type of player. But Kidd in college was electric athletically, had an NBA body, and so many other readily apparent skills. That Kentucky v. UCLA game where Fox just stole Lonzo's soul sort of game me some concerns about Lonzo, but yeah.

Not sure if the Celtics would have just kept the #1 pick and used on Tatum anyways but it was a risk for them to trade down.


Never impressed by Kidd in Dallas which is the version that was chosen #2. Boy did Nick Van Exel used to rip him to shreds - Him, Gary Payton, Anfernee Hardaway and Ron Harper on the Jordan Bulls seemed like they were guys ear-marked to be destroyed by Nick the Quick - which is especially ironic since every single one of these guys listed on here were very much plus defenders when Van Exel used to torch them


GP used to say our boy Nick was the one player he wouldn't talk trash to.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:46 pm    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
eznoh wrote:
Yes. May turn out to be close to the biggest blunder in the history of the league. Having watched him at UCLA I wondered what was I missing?

Mike


It's not close to the biggest blunder. I think the thread is blown out of proportion.

What you were missing.

1. His finishing at the rim was left handed, not right handed.
2. That the Lakers would utilize him in the same way as UCLA. Instead, they made him the lead PG when UCLA made him a secondary playmaker next to Aaron Holiday.
3. Total lack of ability to change directions and really manipulate defenses out of a classic PnR set up.
4. UCLA's playbook that often led to 1 step advantages and movement shooting, that rarely translates to the NBA level because NBA defenders are bigger, longer, and faster, and teammates can't screen those guys off well.
5. His total lack of midrange game out of PnR.

So, he's a secondary playmaker, not a lead playmaker. Guess why he looks good in Chicago? Because LaVine does all the hard work, while Lonzo is a specialist as a secondary playmaker, spot up shooter, and point of attack defender.


This is why Lonzo belonged in the 10 -20 or even 2nd rounds. We have to analyze the history of UCLA prospects. There are many UCLA legends. Do you see Lonzo in that group as the Top No.2 pick? Today any players that can not knock down open shots won't get any minutes on the court.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 3:56 pm    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Nope. The blunder wasn't missing out on Tatum. It was the pattern of discarding young talent and not developing them to their fullest capabilities. Rob's vision did not align with any kind of development. And I actually thought Zo was the right pick at the time. He proved that by doing what he was supposed to do and dominating the summer league with some crazy stat lines. The wheels started falling apart after the injuries. You can't pin that on Zo.


Dominating the summer league and scared to shoot when the season starts. You have to be mentally tough to wear the purple and gold. This is why Lakers is not for everyone.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:00 pm    Post subject:

kobe8One wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Nope. The blunder wasn't missing out on Tatum. It was the pattern of discarding young talent and not developing them to their fullest capabilities. Rob's vision did not align with any kind of development. And I actually thought Zo was the right pick at the time. He proved that by doing what he was supposed to do and dominating the summer league with some crazy stat lines. The wheels started falling apart after the injuries. You can't pin that on Zo.


Dominating the summer league and scared to shoot when the season starts. You have to be mentally tough to wear the purple and gold. This is why Lakers is not for everyone.


Yes, his shooting was questionable, but he was actually a positive whenever he was on the floor. He did all the other things well, including controlling the pace/tempo of the game. I think the lineups with Zo and BI had won more games together than lost. It was just that neither of them could stay healthy, and they never developed the same continuity that Brown-Tatum did. We'd be having a different convo if he didn't develop all those injuries. The Bulls essentially lost their mojo when Zo got hurt. He unlocked so much of their transition offense, and we saw them play like a .500 team towards the end of the season. People are underestimating his impact.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 5:15 pm    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Nope. The blunder wasn't missing out on Tatum. It was the pattern of discarding young talent and not developing them to their fullest capabilities. Rob's vision did not align with any kind of development. And I actually thought Zo was the right pick at the time. He proved that by doing what he was supposed to do and dominating the summer league with some crazy stat lines. The wheels started falling apart after the injuries. You can't pin that on Zo.


I disagree about wanting Lonzo over Tatum but agree 100% about the real blunder. Pelinka bidding against himself for AD was embarrassing.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:21 pm    Post subject:

KindCrippler2000 wrote:
kobe8One wrote:
KindCrippler2000 wrote:
Nope. The blunder wasn't missing out on Tatum. It was the pattern of discarding young talent and not developing them to their fullest capabilities. Rob's vision did not align with any kind of development. And I actually thought Zo was the right pick at the time. He proved that by doing what he was supposed to do and dominating the summer league with some crazy stat lines. The wheels started falling apart after the injuries. You can't pin that on Zo.


Dominating the summer league and scared to shoot when the season starts. You have to be mentally tough to wear the purple and gold. This is why Lakers is not for everyone.


Yes, his shooting was questionable, but he was actually a positive whenever he was on the floor. He did all the other things well, including controlling the pace/tempo of the game. I think the lineups with Zo and BI had won more games together than lost. It was just that neither of them could stay healthy, and they never developed the same continuity that Brown-Tatum did. We'd be having a different convo if he didn't develop all those injuries. The Bulls essentially lost their mojo when Zo got hurt. He unlocked so much of their transition offense, and we saw them play like a .500 team towards the end of the season. People are underestimating his impact.


I had mixed feelings about Lonzo at the time. Saying that his shooting was questionable is an understatement. He shot 45% from the line as a rookie. He got worse in his second year -- under 42%. He seemed passive and unsure of himself on the offensive end, though he looked a lot more confident on defense. There came a point when you could see that he might develop into something, but it was also apparent that it would take more time than we were going to give him. And then there was all the nonsense with his dad and BBB.

For whatever reason, he just wasn't ready to get drafted #2, especially as a Laker, and especially with Magic and his dad running their mouths about him. If he had gone #10, or if he had gone to the Hornets like his brother, we might think of him differently.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 9:40 pm    Post subject:

Biggest blunder ever is ridiculous.. Tatum is a great young player no doubt but he's had plenty of issues during his Playoff career thus far. The roster and overall 2 way play of Boston as a whole is why they're in the Finals with a chance to win it all.. Tatum is sure as hell not single handedly winning them much like other stars in the League. I agree taking Ball was clearly the wrong choice but this thread title is way over the top imo.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:02 am    Post subject:

hype wrote:
Biggest blunder ever is ridiculous.. Tatum is a great young player no doubt but he's had plenty of issues during his Playoff career thus far. The roster and overall 2 way play of Boston as a whole is why they're in the Finals with a chance to win it all.. Tatum is sure as hell not single handedly winning them much like other stars in the League. I agree taking Ball was clearly the wrong choice but this thread title is way over the top imo.


Going by the title the issue isn't how good a player Tatum is, the issue is whether you can cite bigger blunders. (I agree that there are other blunders that are good candidates)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:49 am    Post subject:

Halflife wrote:
anyone who thinks tatum would have been kept in AD deal hasn't been paying attention.


Nah, they're paying attention. It's called willful ignorance.
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