X's and O's -- what are the principles of Darvin Ham's 4 out - 1 in offense
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DancingBarry
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:21 pm    Post subject:

Robblake wrote:
slavavov wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
…….y do that with some intelligence.

Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?


He simply has to buy in or be traded at the trade deadline.


I have no faith in Russ doing what is needed. It's certainly not asking anything out of his skillset...just his mindset.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:18 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Who said anything about what level of defense? Jru is used for defense only but he’s a decent offensive player. So in other words he won’t focus on offense so much. Also he was a decent defender when he entered the league and like most players forgot how to play defense


What the heck does “be used defensively like Jru” mean then if you can’t even match his level of defense? Jrue is quite important to the Bucks defensively.


Both guys are Big PGs who won’t be running their teams offense. Jru focus is point of attack defense. Russ focus will be defense. Is Russ not as athletic or as fast as Jru? Russ playing defense isn’t a silly idea you know. He does have the tools. https://youtu.be/Upm0FHM2nY0
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:26 pm    Post subject:

Russell Westbrook and Jrue holiday shouldn't not be in the same sentence
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:27 pm    Post subject:

Dennis100mtrash wrote:
Russell Westbrook and Jrue holiday shouldn't not be in the same sentence


You’re right because Westbrook has a MVP scoring titles and has lead multiple teams to the playoffs.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:36 pm    Post subject:

Dennis100mtrash wrote:
Russell Westbrook and Jrue holiday shouldn't not be in the same sentence


In their primes I might take Russ.
In their old age, I'd probably go Holiday.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 11:57 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
Robblake wrote:
slavavov wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
…….y do that with some intelligence.

Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?


He simply has to buy in or be traded at the trade deadline.


I have no faith in Russ doing what is needed. It's certainly not asking anything out of his skillset...just his mindset.


Agreed.

And yes, excellent breakdown DB
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:10 am    Post subject:

DrDent wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
Robblake wrote:
slavavov wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
…….y do that with some intelligence.
Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?
He simply has to buy in or be traded at the trade deadline.
I have no faith in Russ doing what is needed. It's certainly not asking anything out of his skillset...just his mindset.
Agreed. And yes, excellent breakdown DB
Great breakdown, DB!

How many HOF players do NOT improve or add another aspect of their game during the off-season?

Since Russ feels that LBJ and AD should adjust their games to his (even though they have won rings and he hasn't, will we hear "We needs Russ to be Russ" over and over again - despite knowing that this has not resulted in any deep run in the playoffs.

What is Russ' "Basketball IQ?"

Last season, he stated that his mission is to keep everybody giving 150% effort every second they are on the court. Why should any of the other players believe what he is saying when he is doing what he is preaching?

Since his decline of his physical skills has decreased where he is having a hard problem dunking the ball, plus he can't hit outside shots or make accurate passes resulting in live ball TOs, what will he "bring" to the Lakers since he didn't have "Any Expectations" last year.
Sidebar: He "accomplished" his goals - no expectations resulting in no goals achieved

Is this the player that you want your younger player be around?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:40 am    Post subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIka14fi4fs

That's got a lot of the offense that I think we may run. Mind you Buldenhozer never ran it with stars like WB/Lebron + AD. The only ball dominant star he's ever had in Milwaukee was Giannis, and in Atlanta he had quality scorers but not a ball dominant star.

Basically it's a heck of an offense that creates a lot of open looks for the role guys. I just don't know if guys like WB/Bron will play well in it. This is the exact sort of offense (If say Ham installed it as well as Buldenhozer did) you could see a team of AD (1 star in the Giannis role) and a lot of 2-way wings that can shoot 3s would do very well in. THT/Nunn could play the Dennis Schroeder role.

I liked the system a lot when I've seen it, I just have a hard time believing Westbrook/Lebron will play system basketball as Lebron never has been coached this way, and Westbrook is even tougher to coach into system basketball than Bron.

This is a great system if you're trying to build a team around 1 star, high quality 2nd/3rd options + role players. This is why Giannis won the title using this system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwrDEzWdwyo

Milwaukee sets.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:43 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIka14fi4fs

That's got a lot of the offense that I think we may run. Mind you Buldenhozer never ran it with stars like WB/Lebron + AD. The only ball dominant star he's ever had in Milwaukee was Giannis, and in Atlanta he had quality scorers but not a ball dominant star.

Basically it's a heck of an offense that creates a lot of open looks for the role guys. I just don't know if guys like WB/Bron will play well in it. This is the exact sort of offense (If say Ham installed it as well as Buldenhozer did) you could see a team of AD (1 star in the Giannis role) and a lot of 2-way wings that can shoot 3s would do very well in. THT/Nunn could play the Dennis Schroeder role.

I liked the system a lot when I've seen it, I just have a hard time believing Westbrook/Lebron will play system basketball as Lebron never has been coached this way, and Westbrook is even tougher to coach into system basketball than Bron.

This is a great system if you're trying to build a team around 1 star, high quality 2nd/3rd options + role players. This is why Giannis won the title using this system.


I think you are dramatically underselling Jrue/Middleton. They aren't just role player wings but bona fide all star level players. I DO think LBJ can work in this system b/c he can shoot the 3 and he is a willing passer. Russ, no chance IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:47 am    Post subject:

Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:54 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.


If you have say LBJ playing Giannis, and you somehow can trade Russ for say Brogdon/Hield, then yes, you'd have the offensive pieces to do it. Otherwise, starting Russ in that system is just a non-starter. He would have to be a bench player IMO and you would have to insert more shooters instead of him, which is difficult due to the 47m cap space being taken up.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:28 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.
Agree with your assessment

Problem (IMHO) is that Westbrook's Basketball IQ and (mistakenly, at this stage of his career) has the athletic/basketball ability to close - as noted by his numerous missed dunks, shots that hit the side of the backboard and air shots.

Biggest Problem is playing D since Westbrook is the "Head of the Snake" on that side of the court. Elite teams would target Westbrook on every play knowing that they can usually get a direct line drive to the paint forcing any bigs (i.e. AD) to drop down leaving the Corner 3 wide open unless somebody rotates.

Reality is that eltite teams (Celtics, Suns, Warriors, Bucks, Grizzlies, etc) would have a field day with any team that Westbrook is on in a playoff series.

If Westbrook realizes what it will take to win a Ring, Lakers will have a legitimate chance. If Russ justs want to play "Like Russ" - the only good thing is that we only have to suffer one year.

Next year we will be able to see how great a leader Lebron is, as he is trying to fully integrate a player that he and AD went to the FO to get

IMHO
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:15 pm    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.


Well Russ is supposedly brought in on his role so that’s one less hand that needs the ball. If wants to score he’s gonna have to move without the ball like he did in Houston. And also get stops on the defensive side.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:24 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.
Well Russ is supposedly brought in on his role so that’s one less hand that needs the ball. If wants to score he’s gonna have to move without the ball like he did in Houston. And also get stops on the defensive side.
"Draymond Green struggled yet again in Game 4, scoring just two points on 1-of-7 shooting from the field, and found himself on the bench for much of the fourth quarter in the Golden State Warriors series-evening 107-97 win over the Boston Celtics.

After the contest, Green told reporters he was "definitely not thrilled" with that decision from head coach Steve Kerr, especially in a close game in the fourth quarter, but that he understood it given that the group on the court was playing well.

"At the end of the day, if that's what coach decides, you roll with it," he added. "I had to keep my head in the game.""

Mr. WestBrick complained/pouted/mentally checked out when Vogel took him out of the game. If only his goal was to win games, not pat his stats or maintain his reputation.

Celtics were unsuccessful in targeting Curry on D. Most teams look forward to ISO on Westbrook on offense.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 8:04 am    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:


Celtics were unsuccessful in targeting Curry on D. Most teams look forward to ISO on Westbrook on offense.


To my eye Westbrook looked OK on man-D, it was his team defense that was absolutely atrocious in all respects: anticipation, positioning, execution, hustle.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:08 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Car54 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.
Well Russ is supposedly brought in on his role so that’s one less hand that needs the ball. If wants to score he’s gonna have to move without the ball like he did in Houston. And also get stops on the defensive side.
"Draymond Green struggled yet again in Game 4, scoring just two points on 1-of-7 shooting from the field, and found himself on the bench for much of the fourth quarter in the Golden State Warriors series-evening 107-97 win over the Boston Celtics.

After the contest, Green told reporters he was "definitely not thrilled" with that decision from head coach Steve Kerr, especially in a close game in the fourth quarter, but that he understood it given that the group on the court was playing well.

"At the end of the day, if that's what coach decides, you roll with it," he added. "I had to keep my head in the game.""

Mr. WestBrick complained/pouted/mentally checked out when Vogel took him out of the game. If only his goal was to win games, not pat his stats or maintain his reputation.

Celtics were unsuccessful in targeting Curry on D. Most teams look forward to ISO on Westbrook on offense.


bruh stop it. The GSW game has zero to do with our situation. Vogels a nice guy but lets keep it real. He said he want Russ to be Russ that's not asking him to change his game. and 2 Draymond was horrible last night.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 12:47 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Car54 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.
Well Russ is supposedly brought in on his role so that’s one less hand that needs the ball. If wants to score he’s gonna have to move without the ball like he did in Houston. And also get stops on the defensive side.
"Draymond Green struggled yet again in Game 4, scoring just two points on 1-of-7 shooting from the field, and found himself on the bench for much of the fourth quarter in the Golden State Warriors series-evening 107-97 win over the Boston Celtics.

After the contest, Green told reporters he was "definitely not thrilled" with that decision from head coach Steve Kerr, especially in a close game in the fourth quarter, but that he understood it given that the group on the court was playing well.

"At the end of the day, if that's what coach decides, you roll with it," he added. "I had to keep my head in the game.""

Mr. WestBrick complained/pouted/mentally checked out when Vogel took him out of the game. If only his goal was to win games, not pat his stats or maintain his reputation.

Celtics were unsuccessful in targeting Curry on D. Most teams look forward to ISO on Westbrook on offense.
bruh stop it. The GSW game has zero to do with our situation. Vogels a nice guy but lets keep it real. He said he want Russ to be Russ that's not asking him to change his game. and 2 Draymond was horrible last night.
Point was that Draymond accepted being on the bench during critical times because the Dubs will not win in this game if he was on the court

WestBrick can look at Curry always improving his game - offensively and defensively. WestBrick’s games has regressed

Russ being Russ should be a Triple-Double and playing D. Obviously didn’t get anything close from a player that was pouting while ignoring that his countless Live Ball TOs with his airballs/shots that hit the side of the backboard and his numerous defensive mental lapses were always placing his teammates in bad situations on the court

Maybe the “Bad Westbrook” with no expectations or goals will be replaced by the “Good Westbrook” who represents always being actively engaged every second of the game., plays under control, can close at the basket and play D
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:57 am    Post subject:

I mean it's simple.
In today's NBA you better be a 2 way player (as in not being a total bust on one end), unless you're elite on one of those ends. And even then you'll get exposed by good schemes.

Fortunately our 2 best players are pretty elite on both ends (although lebron's man to man has slipped).

4 ideal role players around those 2:

Healthy Lonzo Ball
Mikal Bridges
OG Anunoby
Healthy Alex Caruso
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 9:09 am    Post subject:

Lebron isn’t close to being elite on defense. And at this point AD isn’t close to being elite on offense. We can’t continue to live in the past though there are daily reminders here that people do. But they are just taking the lead of the FO (trading for Westbrook is an example of that).
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:30 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
Lebron isn’t close to being elite on defense. And at this point AD isn’t close to being elite on offense. We can’t continue to live in the past though there are daily reminders here that people do. But they are just taking the lead of the FO (trading for Westbrook is an example of that).


Tell me 6 bigs better offensively than AD.
Tell me 6 small forwards with better overall defense than Lebron.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:45 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Lebron isn’t close to being elite on defense. And at this point AD isn’t close to being elite on offense. We can’t continue to live in the past though there are daily reminders here that people do. But they are just taking the lead of the FO (trading for Westbrook is an example of that).


Tell me 6 bigs better offensively than AD.
Tell me 6 small forwards with better overall defense than Lebron.


Being 7th isn’t elite. I think that there are 2 elite offensive bigs, Gianni and Jokic. I wouldn’t consider Embiid in that class. As for better defensive forwards, I would consider Bridges and Jackson Jr. elite. It’s not a knock on Lebron, not many players in their late 30’s with almost 20 seasons are two-way elites. With AD it is injury keeping him down, his shooting has regressed the past two seasons.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 1:50 pm    Post subject:

venturalakersfan wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Lebron isn’t close to being elite on defense. And at this point AD isn’t close to being elite on offense. We can’t continue to live in the past though there are daily reminders here that people do. But they are just taking the lead of the FO (trading for Westbrook is an example of that).


Tell me 6 bigs better offensively than AD.
Tell me 6 small forwards with better overall defense than Lebron.


Being 7th isn’t elite.


Then who are the only elite sf overall defenders and elite offensive bigs?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:46 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Lebron isn’t close to being elite on defense. And at this point AD isn’t close to being elite on offense. We can’t continue to live in the past though there are daily reminders here that people do. But they are just taking the lead of the FO (trading for Westbrook is an example of that).
Tell me 6 bigs better offensively than AD.
Tell me 6 small forwards with better overall defense than Lebron.


Being 7th isn’t elite.
Then who are the only elite sf overall defenders and elite offensive bigs?
Question with AD is never talent, it is availability
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 2:50 pm    Post subject:

A Mad Chinaman wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Lebron isn’t close to being elite on defense. And at this point AD isn’t close to being elite on offense. We can’t continue to live in the past though there are daily reminders here that people do. But they are just taking the lead of the FO (trading for Westbrook is an example of that).
Tell me 6 bigs better offensively than AD.
Tell me 6 small forwards with better overall defense than Lebron.


Being 7th isn’t elite.
Then who are the only elite sf overall defenders and elite offensive bigs?
Question with AD is never talent, it is availability


Yep.
VLF, is that your take too? Or are you still googling?
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:24 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
Car54 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
Middleton isn't a role player, but I don't think he's a ball dominant star at all. He's more of a catch and shoot guy that can play off the stars and he can create, but he's not a guy that will do what Russ or AD do as a 2nd guy next to Lebron, which is hold the ball and dominate it.

The system is very easy to run with Giannis/Middleton/Holiday vs Bron/AD/WB. We have 3 ball dominant players in the star roles, while their big 3 have one ball dominant player it's Giannis.

That's what I meant.

And for LBJ, I have never seen him play system basketball like that, to a high volume. Bits and pieces. Usually he's been the QB of his championship teams, and he would play the Giannis role in the offense, IMO.
Well Russ is supposedly brought in on his role so that’s one less hand that needs the ball. If wants to score he’s gonna have to move without the ball like he did in Houston. And also get stops on the defensive side.
"Draymond Green struggled yet again in Game 4, scoring just two points on 1-of-7 shooting from the field, and found himself on the bench for much of the fourth quarter in the Golden State Warriors series-evening 107-97 win over the Boston Celtics.

After the contest, Green told reporters he was "definitely not thrilled" with that decision from head coach Steve Kerr, especially in a close game in the fourth quarter, but that he understood it given that the group on the court was playing well.

"At the end of the day, if that's what coach decides, you roll with it," he added. "I had to keep my head in the game.""

Mr. WestBrick complained/pouted/mentally checked out when Vogel took him out of the game. If only his goal was to win games, not pat his stats or maintain his reputation.

Celtics were unsuccessful in targeting Curry on D. Most teams look forward to ISO on Westbrook on offense.


bruh stop it. The GSW game has zero to do with our situation. Vogels a nice guy but lets keep it real. He said he want Russ to be Russ that's not asking him to change his game. and 2 Draymond was horrible last night.


Vogel actually wanted Russ to play off the ball some (because he’s easy to game plan for with the ball) and to defend, and he didn’t want to do either.
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