X's and O's -- what are the principles of Darvin Ham's 4 out - 1 in offense
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 3:30 pm    Post subject:

The huge challenge for the 4-1 with our roster is the lack of shooters. Westbrook, AD, Stanley, Reaves, THT are all guys you can cheat off, especially above the break. And if you put Westbrook in the dunkers spot he’s probably going to draw a big or wing defender down there and switch his man into a corner. And if he brings the ball up the defense can go under screens or drop cover him or both. He’s actually better working out of the corner like a playmaking ceballos, with AD in the dunker spot and Bron and a couple shooters. To make a 4 out offense work on any level against good defense you can only have one non shooter. You look at Milwaukee and every other of their top six minutes guys beside the Greek Freak is a 37-42% three ball shooter, including their other “big”.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2022 6:42 pm    Post subject:

Get ready for a lot of post ups.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:06 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
A Mad Chinaman wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
epic_ wrote:
venturalakersfan wrote:
Lebron isn’t close to being elite on defense. And at this point AD isn’t close to being elite on offense. We can’t continue to live in the past though there are daily reminders here that people do. But they are just taking the lead of the FO (trading for Westbrook is an example of that).
Tell me 6 bigs better offensively than AD.
Tell me 6 small forwards with better overall defense than Lebron.


Being 7th isn’t elite.
Then who are the only elite sf overall defenders and elite offensive bigs?
Question with AD is never talent, it is availability
Yep.
VLF, is that your take too? Or are you still googling?
Had to "Googling" to see if AD was still playing for the Lakers or retired or on the G Team who was brought up to The Dance every once in awhile - lol!
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:35 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
The huge challenge for the 4-1 with our roster is the lack of shooters. Westbrook, AD, Stanley, Reaves, THT are all guys you can cheat off, especially above the break. And if you put Westbrook in the dunkers spot he’s probably going to draw a big or wing defender down there and switch his man into a corner. And if he brings the ball up the defense can go under screens or drop cover him or both. He’s actually better working out of the corner like a playmaking ceballos, with AD in the dunker spot and Bron and a couple shooters. To make a 4 out offense work on any level against good defense you can only have one non shooter. You look at Milwaukee and every other of their top six minutes guys beside the Greek Freak is a 37-42% three ball shooter, including their other “big”.


Think Westbrook will be utilized as the initiator, corner and in the blue box. Although the corner is probably the most effective consistently, his flexibility all three can make him a weapon.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 6:06 am    Post subject:

I agree with the principle. But Pelinka did aim for getting shooters last summer, which was why Anthony, Monk and Ellington were on the team. The problem was on the other end of the court.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 9:42 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
Designed to open up driving lanes and smartly position the 1-in player in the dunker and corners. From there they can initiate some screens. The 1-in can often be a small. For instance, picture Russ coming from the dunker spot up high to set a quick screen for LeBron on the drive. He could also set pin-in screens to open up the corner if Russ's defender is replaced by the weakside corner defender. (This would open up corner threes.)

This might also open up open up corner threes for AD, which would be a better look for him and improve his percentages/effectiveness. Tricky issue with Russ is that if you use him like that to try to get an advantage with a smaller help defender down low, teams will just start guarding Russ with their big.

Typical rule is the first man down takes that dunker spot as the 1-in, so it will be other guards, as well.

In any event, it's a smart but simple scheme that fits the personnel pretty well. If you have the ball in LeBron's hands and the help is a small in the paint, they will be toast similar to how they are toast with Giannis.

I would just look at everything the Bucks ran. They are one of the best ATO teams, so I'm sure we're stealing all that. The inbounds stuff should be great. They also love to get those early offense quick hit types of plays that are sort of organized chaos. This would also help Russ, too, in that he can be a trigger man vs. a shooter. Some of the actions are designed for Giannis to draw the defender's of shooters as teams need to wall him off. So they do that with some intelligence.

Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?


Russ says he’s committed let’s see if Lebron is
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:56 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
slavavov wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
Designed to open up driving lanes and smartly position the 1-in player in the dunker and corners. From there they can initiate some screens. The 1-in can often be a small. For instance, picture Russ coming from the dunker spot up high to set a quick screen for LeBron on the drive. He could also set pin-in screens to open up the corner if Russ's defender is replaced by the weakside corner defender. (This would open up corner threes.)

This might also open up open up corner threes for AD, which would be a better look for him and improve his percentages/effectiveness. Tricky issue with Russ is that if you use him like that to try to get an advantage with a smaller help defender down low, teams will just start guarding Russ with their big.

Typical rule is the first man down takes that dunker spot as the 1-in, so it will be other guards, as well.

In any event, it's a smart but simple scheme that fits the personnel pretty well. If you have the ball in LeBron's hands and the help is a small in the paint, they will be toast similar to how they are toast with Giannis.

I would just look at everything the Bucks ran. They are one of the best ATO teams, so I'm sure we're stealing all that. The inbounds stuff should be great. They also love to get those early offense quick hit types of plays that are sort of organized chaos. This would also help Russ, too, in that he can be a trigger man vs. a shooter. Some of the actions are designed for Giannis to draw the defender's of shooters as teams need to wall him off. So they do that with some intelligence.

Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?


Russ says he’s committed let’s see if Lebron is


Just like he said he was committed too a last year and would “sacrifice” for the team.
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20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:03 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
slavavov wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
Designed to open up driving lanes and smartly position the 1-in player in the dunker and corners. From there they can initiate some screens. The 1-in can often be a small. For instance, picture Russ coming from the dunker spot up high to set a quick screen for LeBron on the drive. He could also set pin-in screens to open up the corner if Russ's defender is replaced by the weakside corner defender. (This would open up corner threes.)

This might also open up open up corner threes for AD, which would be a better look for him and improve his percentages/effectiveness. Tricky issue with Russ is that if you use him like that to try to get an advantage with a smaller help defender down low, teams will just start guarding Russ with their big.

Typical rule is the first man down takes that dunker spot as the 1-in, so it will be other guards, as well.

In any event, it's a smart but simple scheme that fits the personnel pretty well. If you have the ball in LeBron's hands and the help is a small in the paint, they will be toast similar to how they are toast with Giannis.

I would just look at everything the Bucks ran. They are one of the best ATO teams, so I'm sure we're stealing all that. The inbounds stuff should be great. They also love to get those early offense quick hit types of plays that are sort of organized chaos. This would also help Russ, too, in that he can be a trigger man vs. a shooter. Some of the actions are designed for Giannis to draw the defender's of shooters as teams need to wall him off. So they do that with some intelligence.

Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?


Russ says he’s committed let’s see if Lebron is


Just like he said he was committed too a last year and would “sacrifice” for the team.


Sacrifice what? He was told to be Russ no clear direction you’re definitely wrong here.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:09 pm    Post subject:

So Russ is all of a sudden going to be selfless, a defender and a good 2 point shooter? That is what the system entails. Plenty of reports where Russ bristled at being coached and called out at film sessions. He is uncoachable and the sooner you realize that the sooner you will understand who he is.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
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21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:18 pm    Post subject:

Last 10 NBA champions. Look at all the starting PGs.

Steph
Jrue
KCP/Green (no true starting “PG”)
Lowry
Kyrie
Tony Parker (37% from 3 that season)
Kidd/Terry (Kidd 34% from 3)
Fisher.

Cannot have someone like Russ who shoots under 30% from 3, especially in a Bud 4 out system.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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epic_
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:42 pm    Post subject:

I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:43 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:51 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
So Russ is all of a sudden going to be selfless, a defender and a good 2 point shooter? That is what the system entails. Plenty of reports where Russ bristled at being coached and called out at film sessions. He is uncoachable and the sooner you realize that the sooner you will understand who he is.


Listen you can bring up last season all you want but reality is Vogel never had his respect and Darvin does. Frank said we need Russ to be Russ what’s does that mean? He did what Russ would do. Darvin said we need Russ to not be Russ on the offensive end and need Russ to do XYZ Russ says he’s on board and I’m gonna believe him until he shows me otherwise.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:52 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:53 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Last 10 NBA champions. Look at all the starting PGs.

Steph
Jrue
KCP/Green (no true starting “PG”)
Lowry
Kyrie
Tony Parker (37% from 3 that season)
Kidd/Terry (Kidd 34% from 3)
Fisher.

Cannot have someone like Russ who shoots under 30% from 3, especially in a Bud 4 out system.


This is why you’re wrong Lebron is our PG none of those teams had Lebron.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:55 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Last 10 NBA champions. Look at all the starting PGs.

Steph
Jrue
KCP/Green (no true starting “PG”)
Lowry
Kyrie
Tony Parker (37% from 3 that season)
Kidd/Terry (Kidd 34% from 3)
Fisher.

Cannot have someone like Russ who shoots under 30% from 3, especially in a Bud 4 out system.


This is why you’re wrong Lebron is our PG none of those teams had Lebron.


So what is Russ on this team? “Shooting guard?”
_________________
LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:55 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


Don’t let the Debbie Downers get to you lol
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:56 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


Don’t let the Debbie Downers get to you lol


It’s called being realistic. Russ isn’t going to magically become something he isn’t.
_________________
LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 1:58 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


He can’t finish at the rim anymore though. So when he screens he isn’t a rim or pop threat. If you post him, they will just play a bigger defender on him. The most effective role is being a bench guard and letting him play the only way he knows how to.
_________________
LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:19 pm    Post subject:

I wonder if we could play Russ in a Draymond like role offensively. Teams play off of him at the 3pt line. Could he turn that into open looks for our guards via DHOs? I guess he would have to be willing to set a screen though .
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:20 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


Don’t let the Debbie Downers get to you lol


It’s called being realistic. Russ isn’t going to magically become something he isn’t.


What exactly is he asking Russ to do that he can’t do?
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:23 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


Don’t let the Debbie Downers get to you lol


It’s called being realistic. Russ isn’t going to magically become something he isn’t.


What exactly is he asking Russ to do that he can’t do?


Team defense.
Shoot the 3.
Have gravity as an off ball shooter.
Finish at the rim.
Be a threat to roll or pick and pop.

Literally does none of these things and hasn’t. I don’t expect he will.
_________________
LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:25 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


He can’t finish at the rim anymore though. So when he screens he isn’t a rim or pop threat. If you post him, they will just play a bigger defender on him. The most effective role is being a bench guard and letting him play the only way he knows how to.


Start or bench.
Either way I don't think we're gonna play 2 different offenses (as I consider letting Rus be Rus means we're not playing 4out1). He's gonna have to play within the offensive principles one way or the other.

I know you think he won't. Which is fine
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:27 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


Don’t let the Debbie Downers get to you lol


It’s called being realistic. Russ isn’t going to magically become something he isn’t.


What exactly is he asking Russ to do that he can’t do?


Team defense.
Shoot the 3.
Have gravity as an off ball shooter.
Finish at the rim.
Be a threat to roll or pick and pop.

Literally does none of these things and hasn’t. I don’t expect he will.


There you go adding stuff show me the video or quote of him mentioning 3s? Show me gravity as 3 pt shooter. He can do the rest of those things.
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:30 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
I don't think he's gonna play the traditional PG role next year. We'll see.


So what other role is he playing? If he’s playing anything else they’ll just stick a bigger defender on him and he’s basically neutralized. He’s literally the non ideal type of PG in that system. Hopefully we find a more favorable trade soon.


I think there will be times he's the screen and roller.
And hands off when his man doesn't play up on him.
And hearing how the offense works, there will be opportunities to post up.
Ideally, they play enough defense and break to not play against a set defense.
If it doesn't work with Lebron, he'll most likely be staggered out for Bron or come off the bench.

But again, we'll see. We don't even know who's gonna be in the team yet.


Don’t let the Debbie Downers get to you lol


It’s called being realistic. Russ isn’t going to magically become something he isn’t.


What exactly is he asking Russ to do that he can’t do?


Team defense.
Shoot the 3.
Have gravity as an off ball shooter.
Finish at the rim.
Be a threat to roll or pick and pop.

Literally does none of these things and hasn’t. I don’t expect he will.


There you go adding stuff show me the video or quote of him mentioning 3s? Show me gravity as 3 pt shooter. He can do the rest of those things.


You must not actually watch Bucks games. They value shooting and defense around Giannis. And Russ isn’t Giannis. So what is he playing?
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21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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