Has anyone here lost hope?
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:33 pm    Post subject:

RI Laker wrote:
Jerry went to the finals 16 times in 33 years as the owner of the Lakers. The kids are not a good custodian of the brand (although I like Jeanie). Luckily, Jerry gave his kids the gift that keeps giving (a crazy TV contract). As time goes on, players are going to care less and less about the Lakers. We have been very spoiled being a fan of one of the greatest franchises in all of sports. That being said, I believe we may have to brace ourselves for potentially the worst run that we have ever experienced. I can see us having a good year next season (with a lot of luck), but it looks like dire times are around the corner. I am not sure if its lost hope or maybe making an honest assessment.


It sounds like you're at the low point I reached a few weeks ago. I've been bouncing back. There actually are some positives. The coaching search looked professional. Hiring Ham signals a willingness to consider new ideas, and it sounds like the front office isn't trying to micromanage him. The front office is saying that it isn't going to throw away more draft picks just to get rid of Westbrook. These may be baby steps, but it's still positive.

We'll likely have some tough years, but we may not see the worst-case scenario.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:17 pm    Post subject:

Nope
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 8:47 pm    Post subject:

Look at the roster.

Your best player is 38 years old and your two best players have yet to even play a full season for the franchise since they arrived.

Why should this upcoming season be any different?

Look at the total lack of assets.

No young blue-chip talent, no draft picks.

Look at the fact the same people who created this mess are still making the decisions.

There is absolutely nothing to be hopeful about.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:17 pm    Post subject:

This summer will tell us a lot about whether the front office has learned from its mistakes and whether we can trust it moving forward.

I think it's possible for this team to compete for the championship next season, depending on what it does this summer. We were in a similar situation 3 years ago, where no one thought we would get close to a ring anytime soon.

I just wish the front office had a clear and coherent long-term vision and that they would get rid of their wet dream of having three superstars, and instead just assemble the best team centered around one or two true superstars.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:05 am    Post subject:

The team will be back and contend again.

Just don't ask me when.

Patience is a virtue, my friend
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 12:10 am    Post subject:

Depends on how you manage your expectations. If you're a championship or bust kind of guy (like a majority of Laker fans I think), then there really isn't much to be hopeful about next season.

If you're looking for improvements then I do think next season will be a positive one. At least I do feel we are going to get more accountability among our players and coaching staff, and the FO did have a lot of mistakes to learn from.
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troy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:30 am    Post subject:

RashardA wrote:
Look at the roster.

Your best player is 38 years old and your two best players have yet to even play a full season for the franchise since they arrived.

Why should this upcoming season be any different?

Look at the total lack of assets.

No young blue-chip talent, no draft picks.

Look at the fact the same people who created this mess are still making the decisions.

There is absolutely nothing to be hopeful about.


Perfectly stated.
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troy
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:39 am    Post subject:

Kobetan wrote:
Depends on how you manage your expectations. If you're a championship or bust kind of guy (like a majority of Laker fans I think), then there really isn't much to be hopeful about next season.

If you're looking for improvements then I do think next season will be a positive one. At least I do feel we are going to get more accountability among our players and coaching staff, and the FO did have a lot of mistakes to learn from.


Jeanie Buss stated that with the money she's spending, she expects the Lakers to "go deep into the playoffs". How does it look for Laker fans to "manage" our expectations? Is a playin appearance managing our expectations? 1st round exit? You think losing in the first round will be acceptable in Laker land?

How about accountability? How accountable is a billionaire, 38 year old Lebron going to be? How about AD being accountable over there sitting on the bench injured again. Does anyone really expect Westbrook to actually be accountable??

The Lakers and their fan-base don't do "making improvements" very well. Lebron James doesn't play the game just to "make improvements". That means nothing to us. That's like feeding a chicken wing to a hungry lion.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:40 am    Post subject:

You never know what can happen years from now. No one envisioned a title in 2020 where the Lakers were in 2016-2018. There was a hope that one day the YUTES would become good enough to form a perennial playoff team.

What I do think is we're stuck in mediocrity in the remainder of the Lebron/Westbrook era, and the sooner we move ourselves away from both players, the better it will be. AD is a jack of all trades type of guy, you can plug him anywhere in any role and he can give you that. I would keep AD so long as he can give you 60 games a year and playoffs. He hasn't shown that, but he is still in his late 20s and has a lot left in the tank. He can't be relied due to health as the #1 guy but he can be a great piece of a good team as the 2nd or 3rd guy.

I would do everything in my power to move on from WB/LBJ if I were looking to get out of mediocrity within the next 3 years. But we won't, and we will be stuck with this indecision and need maybe 5 years to recover from going all in for WB/LBJ/AD. The key next decision will be the extension of Lebron and free agency in 2023. The Lakers need to make good judgements on that.


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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:43 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
I would do everything in my power to move on from WB/LBJ if I were looking to get out of mediocrity within the next 3 years. But we won't, and we will be stuck with this indecision and need maybe 5 years to recover from going all in for WB/LBJ/AD.


I don't see a clear path to do this in the next three years. Moving on from Westbrook? Sure. Getting out of mediocrity? I don't see how we would do that unless we get a surprising trade or the like.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 5:58 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
I would do everything in my power to move on from WB/LBJ if I were looking to get out of mediocrity within the next 3 years. But we won't, and we will be stuck with this indecision and need maybe 5 years to recover from going all in for WB/LBJ/AD.


I don't see a clear path to do this in the next three years. Moving on from Westbrook? Sure. Getting out of mediocrity? I don't see how we would do that unless we get a surprising trade or the like.

What I mean is the upside of Pelinka's big 3 2.0 project or AD+old Bron (extended a year) + capspace in 2023 = Not a team that will beat Golden State, Memphis etc. We're going to be a good team if things fall in place with the new coach some luck with health, but in that 30-48 win area you want to avoid with an aging older team. If these guys were young or mid-career that's another thing. They're on their last run.

So now you look at the alternative, and it's not going to make you immediately better, it may even make you worse in the short run. But it gives your young new coach a lot more leeway to develop a system, install new roots and culture and get in position where 2-3 years from now you may have a shot.

There is no quick fix, but I think we're choosing the path that delays a process that we could start immediately. Doing it for Kobe? Sure. He's the greatest Laker ever, along with Magic. Lebron? He's had 1 great year as a Laker in 4. All his other years have been less than any other year he's had in other franchises. We're going to witness the end/decline/post-prime/retirement tour of Lebron, and for fun WB's tagging along too as a declining older stat paddling player. Sure they may be fun on some nights and win a lot more games next year with health and coaching they respect. Ok, but is it worth it? I don't personally think so. The FO is approaching this without understanding that they have old, declining players they need to move on from. They seem to think a coach with a more fiercy voice and a better scheme for WB will solve al ot of the problems. Instead, I'd like their focus to be on re-building for the next title team. This won't include Lebron or Westbrook. Unlikley AD too, but he is young enough where he could be an all-star caliber impact player 3 years from now at 32.


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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:00 am    Post subject:

RashardA wrote:
Look at the roster.

Your best player is 38 years old and your two best players have yet to even play a full season for the franchise since they arrived.

Why should this upcoming season be any different?

Look at the total lack of assets.

No young blue-chip talent, no draft picks.

Look at the fact the same people who created this mess are still making the decisions.

There is absolutely nothing to be hopeful about.


I'm actually a bit more hopeful than that. I think Ham will be a breath of fresh air. Vogel was a very good defensive coach, but his offensive schemes left a lot to be desired. And I think losing Kidd and Hollins made it worse. The FO did him dirty by taking away all our defensive players in exchange for Russ.

But we do have assets coming up. In the next 3 years, we will have 2 1st round picks. Then we have all our picks thereafter. Theoretically, in 2023, we could have a max FA slot. In 2024, we could theoretically have AD + 2 max slots (3 if you trade AD).

When LBJ signed in 2019, I knew there would be a shorter shelf life due to age. So I'm not as despondent as some of y'all b/c I knew the run wouldn't be as long, but I'm still grateful we got a 2020 championship out of it. I'm hoping LBJ finishes out last year, maybe does a 1 year extension, and in 2024 we can really rebuild this team from the bottom up.

Things may look bleak, but I'm never losing hope. (I just had all my law school loans forgiven under the PSLF forgiveness program this week, so I'm much happier and hopeful too. ).
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:03 am    Post subject:

Now, if for some inexplicable reason, the Lakers re-up Russ, then it's all over for me and the Lakers.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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wolfpaclaker
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:12 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Now, if for some inexplicable reason, the Lakers re-up Russ, then it's all over for me and the Lakers.

The same opinion should be for Lebron's extension though. There is absolutely no sense to extending him, without a legit championship window. You're giving him the Kobe treatment when he hasn't even earned Shaq's level Laker stripes.

Lets see how it plays out, but I can tolerate one more year of stat paddling old WB+ old Lebron and a 45 win level team that makes some noise in the playoffs. That's fine if they want to do that as they're not willing to trade Lebron and trading WB means you need more assets attached to him which you can't attain. So ok, ride it out.

But a year from now, I hope our sights are set on mid-career type of FA's and players that can play a role, and not big names. We don't need big name FA's, we need smart good signings like KCP, Danny Green (only younger) etc. and to draft well. Just replacing WB's near 50M a year from now, with 3 solid mid-career role players will go a long way if that can be done. And punt on the max, unless you get a legit in prime star to replace Lebron's salary/spot. No way I extend Lebron. He escapes criticism because he stays healthier than AD, But in 4 years, Lebron has had 1 elite year. The rest of his years have beed the worst of his career if you compare to his time in CLE/Miami. A lot of missed games, a lot of poor chemistry with teammates. Dysfunction. It's definitely time for us to move on after this last year, IMO.
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:19 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Now, if for some inexplicable reason, the Lakers re-up Russ, then it's all over for me and the Lakers.

The same opinion should be for Lebron's extension though. There is absolutely no sense to extending him, without a legit championship window. You're giving him the Kobe treatment when he hasn't even earned Shaq's level Laker stripes.

Lets see how it plays out, but I can tolerate one more year of stat paddling old WB+ old Lebron and a 45 win level team that makes some noise in the playoffs. That's fine if they want to do that as they're not willing to trade Lebron and trading WB means you need more assets attached to him which you can't attain. So ok, ride it out.

But a year from now, I hope our sights are set on mid-career type of FA's and players that can play a role, and not big names. We don't need big name FA's, we need smart good signings like KCP, Danny Green (only younger) etc. and to draft well. Just replacing WB's near 50M a year from now, with 3 solid mid-career role players will go a long way if that can be done. And punt on the max, unless you get a legit in prime star to replace Lebron's salary/spot. No way I extend Lebron. He escapes criticism because he stays healthier than AD, But in 4 years, Lebron has had 1 elite year. The rest of his years have beed the worst of his career if you compare to his time in CLE/Miami. A lot of missed games, a lot of poor chemistry with teammates. Dysfunction. It's definitely time for us to move on after this last year, IMO.


But what's in the 2023 FA class? Jokic/Beal likely off the board. You would be making even bigger mistakes than Moz/Deng by using 2 max slots on non-star FAs. I'd be ok (not happy, but ok) if LBJ is extended by one year so that by 2024, he comes off when we have a better FA crop.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:22 am    Post subject:

Wolf, you know the Lakers MO. They will target "big names" with cap space, and if they have 2 slots in 2023 and no one really to use it on, this is Moz/Deng all over again potentially. That's why I'm ok with punting to 2024.

2023 headliners sans Jokic/Beal:

34 year old Harden
Wall
Westbrook
Middleton (31 years old)
Irving (likely re-signed by then)
Porky
35 year old Love
Wiggins
DLO
Vucevic (33 years old)

Just don't see the Lakers having AC Green levels of free agency abstinence to hold tight. It would be a disastrous outcome to sign say Harden and Irving or something like that.
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LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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Aeneas Hunter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:14 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
But what's in the 2023 FA class? Jokic/Beal likely off the board. You would be making even bigger mistakes than Moz/Deng by using 2 max slots on non-star FAs. I'd be ok (not happy, but ok) if LBJ is extended by one year so that by 2024, he comes off when we have a better FA crop.


Yes, that's the point. It's not that we shouldn't move on from Lebron. It's that there are no alternatives that are better in the summer of '23. In fact, I worry that we will open up a ton of cap space and use it to overpay free agents. It might not be like Mozgov and Deng, but you could wind up with a roster full of contracts that are analogous to THT. They wouldn't be championship players, and they wouldn't be valuable trade assets.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:16 am    Post subject:

Lakers made their own bed.

Watching the Celtics win a title with a young home grown core while the Lakers can do nothing about it and have no assets should sting their management, if they care. Who knows if they do.

James Worthy on an interview the other week said it best, Lakers don't want to build a team or core, they want to swing for the fences.

Lakers had a nucleus of young guys a few years ago, and they all became trade bait either for prospective free agents or after Lebron signed. Yes, they won a title in 2020, but 3 out of the other 4 years have been disappointing and the immediate future looks bleak.

They need to play out this season and hopefully Ham can develop a couple young gems. Let the LeBron circus and Westbrook cleave. Deal AD if you want or keep him, nonetheless, with that cap space they should hoard picks (take salary dumps) and future flexibility. This is going to take awhile.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 9:19 am    Post subject:

wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Now, if for some inexplicable reason, the Lakers re-up Russ, then it's all over for me and the Lakers.

The same opinion should be for Lebron's extension though. There is absolutely no sense to extending him, without a legit championship window. You're giving him the Kobe treatment when he hasn't even earned Shaq's level Laker stripes.



sell tickets. a 40 year old barely mobile lebronze will prob make Jeannie happy.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:01 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
wolfpaclaker wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Now, if for some inexplicable reason, the Lakers re-up Russ, then it's all over for me and the Lakers.

The same opinion should be for Lebron's extension though. There is absolutely no sense to extending him, without a legit championship window. You're giving him the Kobe treatment when he hasn't even earned Shaq's level Laker stripes.

Lets see how it plays out, but I can tolerate one more year of stat paddling old WB+ old Lebron and a 45 win level team that makes some noise in the playoffs. That's fine if they want to do that as they're not willing to trade Lebron and trading WB means you need more assets attached to him which you can't attain. So ok, ride it out.

But a year from now, I hope our sights are set on mid-career type of FA's and players that can play a role, and not big names. We don't need big name FA's, we need smart good signings like KCP, Danny Green (only younger) etc. and to draft well. Just replacing WB's near 50M a year from now, with 3 solid mid-career role players will go a long way if that can be done. And punt on the max, unless you get a legit in prime star to replace Lebron's salary/spot. No way I extend Lebron. He escapes criticism because he stays healthier than AD, But in 4 years, Lebron has had 1 elite year. The rest of his years have beed the worst of his career if you compare to his time in CLE/Miami. A lot of missed games, a lot of poor chemistry with teammates. Dysfunction. It's definitely time for us to move on after this last year, IMO.


But what's in the 2023 FA class? Jokic/Beal likely off the board. You would be making even bigger mistakes than Moz/Deng by using 2 max slots on non-star FAs. I'd be ok (not happy, but ok) if LBJ is extended by one year so that by 2024, he comes off when we have a better FA crop.


They wouldn’t have to use two max slots. Imagine renting some of that cap space for some future picks. That’s the kind of thing that progressive thinking teams do.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:06 pm    Post subject:

I don’t understand how the Lakers got the narrative that they never draft talent or build. It’s like Kobe wasn’t a kid that was drafted. Or before him Worthy or Magic. We had lots of lesser stars drafted too like NVE, Jones, etc. Yes we have historically tried to also bring huge stars from the outside like KAJ, Shaq, Gasol and most recently Bron and AD.

It’s almost like Laker management started believing the outside narrative post Kobe. Hey we are the Lakers! We don’t draft and build!! Oh ya Jerry Buss wanted Magic and Kobe last I checked he is still the gold standard of what it means to be a Laker.

I think one thing that gets missed is AD and how he has literally missed TWO years of a four year prime already as a Laker. He was suppose to be the 5+ year window that usually comes with home grown talent. Except he has missed 2 years of his damn prime!!!! That’s not an ez pill to swallow. He’s going to be 30 next season!!!! We have been robbed of two of his best years!!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:01 pm    Post subject:

kfkilla wrote:
I don’t understand how the Lakers got the narrative that they never draft talent or build. It’s like Kobe wasn’t a kid that was drafted. Or before him Worthy or Magic. We had lots of lesser stars drafted too like NVE, Jones, etc. Yes we have historically tried to also bring huge stars from the outside like KAJ, Shaq, Gasol and most recently Bron and AD.

It’s almost like Laker management started believing the outside narrative post Kobe. Hey we are the Lakers! We don’t draft and build!! Oh ya Jerry Buss wanted Magic and Kobe last I checked he is still the gold standard of what it means to be a Laker.

I think one thing that gets missed is AD and how he has literally missed TWO years of a four year prime already as a Laker. He was suppose to be the 5+ year window that usually comes with home grown talent. Except he has missed 2 years of his damn prime!!!! That’s not an ez pill to swallow. He’s going to be 30 next season!!!! We have been robbed of two of his best years!!


Lakers have always drafted well and built. What has been different is in the Magic/Klutch era they are just irresponsibly bad at asset management.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:29 pm    Post subject:

Let's be real there's no better 1+2 than Davis and Lebron in the playoffs once the game slows down. The problem is being healthy enough to have both available. Surround them with players that are willing get there hands dirty, play defense, and hit threes(KCP, Green, Caruso, Morris)
In the end it comes down to players focusing on playing their role and not playing for themselves (Dennis, Harrell, WB)

Just an example, Kobe would be sitting on 6 rings if the Celtics didn't have Eddie house or James posey coming off the bench to hit timely 3s.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:49 pm    Post subject:

I hit a wall when Kobe died. And I fell off the cliff when they made the move for Westbrook. I've barely watched any games since. I barely even come on this forum anymore. It's like the Lakers aren't even a part of my life for the first time since Showtime. And I'm not even sad about it. Nothing lasts forever. I might return in the post-Lebron era. He just doesn't do it for me.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 11:19 pm    Post subject:

LakerSD wrote:
kfkilla wrote:
I don’t understand how the Lakers got the narrative that they never draft talent or build. It’s like Kobe wasn’t a kid that was drafted. Or before him Worthy or Magic. We had lots of lesser stars drafted too like NVE, Jones, etc. Yes we have historically tried to also bring huge stars from the outside like KAJ, Shaq, Gasol and most recently Bron and AD.

It’s almost like Laker management started believing the outside narrative post Kobe. Hey we are the Lakers! We don’t draft and build!! Oh ya Jerry Buss wanted Magic and Kobe last I checked he is still the gold standard of what it means to be a Laker.

I think one thing that gets missed is AD and how he has literally missed TWO years of a four year prime already as a Laker. He was suppose to be the 5+ year window that usually comes with home grown talent. Except he has missed 2 years of his damn prime!!!! That’s not an ez pill to swallow. He’s going to be 30 next season!!!! We have been robbed of two of his best years!!


Lakers have always drafted well and built. What has been different is in the Magic/Klutch era they are just irresponsibly bad at asset management.


You forgot to mention Rob, he gave away all the picks and players.
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