what's the ceiling for Stanley Johnson
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yinoma2001
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:04 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Some are completely underrating him. 4th wing? Only thing that’s keeping him from being first wing is 3% on his 3pt average. He’s an elite defender who now has handle. And he’s a capable passer.


Let's not get carried away. You don't remain a 10 day deal player if you are truly an "elite defender." Jrue Holiday? Giannis? Smart? Elite defenders.

I would Stanley probably checks out at average level defender who has some versatility playing small ball PF and can check wings.


Nah bruh apply that logic to drafts just because 3 teams don’t see your worth doesn’t mean it isn’t there. He passes the eye test and the statistics test. He’s an elite defender.


What is the statistics test? Post it then.

As AH said above, we had such atrocious defenders on this team that Stanley appeared like an amazing defender. But you cannot say he is in the same tier as truly "elite defenders" like Holiday, Giannis, Smart. Not even close.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:12 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
Some are completely underrating him. 4th wing? Only thing that’s keeping him from being first wing is 3% on his 3pt average. He’s an elite defender who now has handle. And he’s a capable passer.


Let's not get carried away. You don't remain a 10 day deal player if you are truly an "elite defender." Jrue Holiday? Giannis? Smart? Elite defenders.

I would Stanley probably checks out at average level defender who has some versatility playing small ball PF and can check wings.


Nah bruh apply that logic to drafts just because 3 teams don’t see your worth doesn’t mean it isn’t there. He passes the eye test and the statistics test. He’s an elite defender.


What is the statistics test? Post it then.

As AH said above, we had such atrocious defenders on this team that Stanley appeared like an amazing defender. But you cannot say he is in the same tier as truly "elite defenders" like Holiday, Giannis, Smart. Not even close.


Driving but it was on a podcast. Again apply that logic to Gary Payton multiple teams now he’s playing in the finals because of the same thing we didn’t value. Explain how a teams bad defense would make him look better. According to the podcast he has a good defensive rating. My eyes don’t lie
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:38 am    Post subject:

You are saying he's an elite defender. So are you saying he is on the Giannis/Smart/Jrue level?

I think his defensive value was subjective. We were a bottom defense and he brought a breath of fresh air b/c he was at least an average level NBA defender.

Gary Payton II, I would consider close to elite defender. But I think he is a much better defender than Stanley.

I do think Stanley has a lot of defensive clay. I think he can find a niche as a 2-4 position defender, and can get better than average on that end. But I have a hard time saying he's going to be an elite defender ala the guys mentioned above.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:34 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
You are saying he's an elite defender. So are you saying he is on the Giannis/Smart/Jrue level?

I think his defensive value was subjective. We were a bottom defense and he brought a breath of fresh air b/c he was at least an average level NBA defender.

Gary Payton II, I would consider close to elite defender. But I think he is a much better defender than Stanley.

I do think Stanley has a lot of defensive clay. I think he can find a niche as a 2-4 position defender, and can get better than average on that end. But I have a hard time saying he's going to be an elite defender ala the guys mentioned above.


First of all Giannis is not an elite defender. I think he’s quite overrated he benefitted from being on a good defensive team. Yes I think Stanley is right there with the Jrue and Smart on defense. He guards his man while also seeing what the player with the ball is doing and it interrupts drives while still guarding his man. He blocks shots and controls the ball after the block. He holds his position well against post ups he does it all. Tell me what’s keeping him from being elite? https://youtu.be/aJd1g6pC0w8
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:39 am    Post subject:

If you don't think Giannis is an elite defender, good lord. Not sure what to tell you. Tells me enough about your eye test.

I think there are sizeable chasms of defensive talent differences between Jrue/Smart and Stanley.

I get it. Stanley looked like a rare bright light in terms of defense. But when stacked against the truly elite ones, he's not there. Maybe he can be, but not there yet. I'm hoping he can continue developing on that end but if he's considered an "elite defender," he will get greater offers on teams and some good talent evaluating teams like the Raps even passed on him. Lakers were so desperate for any modicum of talent who could play defense that Stanley was a breath of fresh air.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:03 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
If you don't think Giannis is an elite defender, good lord. Not sure what to tell you. Tells me enough about your eye test.

I think there are sizeable chasms of defensive talent differences between Jrue/Smart and Stanley.

I get it. Stanley looked like a rare bright light in terms of defense. But when stacked against the truly elite ones, he's not there. Maybe he can be, but not there yet. I'm hoping he can continue developing on that end but if he's considered an "elite defender," he will get greater offers on teams and some good talent evaluating teams like the Raps even passed on him. Lakers were so desperate for any modicum of talent who could play defense that Stanley was a breath of fresh air.


Giannis has elite ability but he doesn’t get after it like those other two players do. So for that reason I don’t consider him to be elite. Again what are the things keeping Stanley from being elite? And please no more “ he was a bright spot “ nonsense. lol Did the raptors talent evaluators tell you they didn’t keep Stanley because of his defense or is that your opinion?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:08 am    Post subject:

What does "go after it" mean? You're using all sorts of subjective terms. Giannis is a big man, who can also smother guards (ask Gobert how good he can do that). He's probably the most versatile defender in the NBA. That you don't think he is considered an elite defender is puzzling to me, and he was pretty much close to unanimously being selected as a 1st team all NBA defender.

Stanley? Well, basketball is a 2 way sport too. What is stopping him from being elite is ironically his offense. It limits his ability to stay on the court. If he improves offensively, means he can stay on the court more, and get more defensive reps. I think Stanley is better suited to defend 3s and 4s, and less so against 1s and 2s. He could stand to lose a little weight as I think he looks like he's carrying probably 10-12 pounds extra.

I think you downplay how dramatic of a leap it takes to go from where he is to literally 1st team all NBA defense level player, which to me, is the definition of being an elite defender.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:16 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
What does "go after it" mean? You're using all sorts of subjective terms. Giannis is a big man, who can also smother guards (ask Gobert how good he can do that). He's probably the most versatile defender in the NBA. That you don't think he is considered an elite defender is puzzling to me, and he was pretty much close to unanimously being selected as a 1st team all NBA defender.

Stanley? Well, basketball is a 2 way sport too. What is stopping him from being elite is ironically his offense. It limits his ability to stay on the court. If he improves offensively, means he can stay on the court more, and get more defensive reps. I think Stanley is better suited to defend 3s and 4s, and less so against 1s and 2s. He could stand to lose a little weight as I think he looks like he's carrying probably 10-12 pounds extra.

I think you downplay how dramatic of a leap it takes to go from where he is to literally 1st team all NBA defense level player, which to me, is the definition of being an elite defender.


What does offense have to do with his defense being elite? So now you’re measuring his defense by his offense? Lol by getting after it I mean being locked in on making his man’s night difficult. And no he’s not the most versatile defender AD is. Most of the people who vote on these awards don’t watch “insert player” on a nightly basis. So the votes don’t mean much to me when I heard him shy away from defending Jimmy Butler when he was lighting the bucks up. AD took on that task for the Lakers and shut Jimmy down. Stanley is elite on defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:20 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
What does "go after it" mean? You're using all sorts of subjective terms. Giannis is a big man, who can also smother guards (ask Gobert how good he can do that). He's probably the most versatile defender in the NBA. That you don't think he is considered an elite defender is puzzling to me, and he was pretty much close to unanimously being selected as a 1st team all NBA defender.

Stanley? Well, basketball is a 2 way sport too. What is stopping him from being elite is ironically his offense. It limits his ability to stay on the court. If he improves offensively, means he can stay on the court more, and get more defensive reps. I think Stanley is better suited to defend 3s and 4s, and less so against 1s and 2s. He could stand to lose a little weight as I think he looks like he's carrying probably 10-12 pounds extra.

I think you downplay how dramatic of a leap it takes to go from where he is to literally 1st team all NBA defense level player, which to me, is the definition of being an elite defender.


What does offense have to do with his defense being elite? So now you’re measuring his defense by his offense? Lol by getting after it I mean being locked in on making his man’s night difficult. And no he’s not the most versatile defender AD is. Most of the people who vote on these awards don’t watch “insert player” on a nightly basis. So the votes don’t mean much to me when I heard him shy away from defending Jimmy Butler when he was lighting the bucks up. AD took on that task for the Lakers and shut Jimmy down. Stanley is elite on defense.

You should carefully read before responding.

His lack of offense means he won't be on the court as much as he needs to be. So if he can't play due to offense, it affects his ability to get more reps on defense. Same thing happened with GP2. Couldn't stay on the floor due to his offense. But he's what, 28-29, he's at a point where he can get 20+mpg b/c his offense improved enough (and the Warriors can cover him with their elite offense) and now he gets the reps needed to work on defense.

There is a wisdom of the crowds here. Do YOU watch every other team closely enough? Of course not. And like I said, Stanley hasn't been able to stay on a team or get huge consistent minutes so of course he won't get noticed by folks. He's not elite at all yet. But I do think he can be an above average defender over time. I think you have a very subjective definition of "elite" defense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:23 am    Post subject:

Johnson is about at his prime, he can defend but his offense has never developed. You need 4 offensive players in order to play him.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:34 am    Post subject:

I remember during his rookie season, some people were saying we should have drafted him instead of DLO.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:06 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
What is the statistics test? Post it then.

As AH said above, we had such atrocious defenders on this team that Stanley appeared like an amazing defender. But you cannot say he is in the same tier as truly "elite defenders" like Holiday, Giannis, Smart. Not even close.


Just for the hell of it, I'll give you the metrics. These are defensive only.

DPM +0.1
EPM -0.5
LEBRON -0.66
RAPM -1.13 (ranks 574th in the league)
RAPTOR +0.2

It's important to remember that metrics can be less reliable for guys who don't play a lot of minutes. The RAPM number looks out of line to me. It is also important to remember that even a defender with a rating of 0 or slightly negative is better than, say, Carmelo Anthony.

In addition, relying on the eyeball test for defense can be misleading. I've made this point before, but it bears repeating. A lot of time fans will see someone who is really active on defense and assume that they are playing good defense. The opposite may be true. Sometimes, your job on defense is to stand in a particular spot and do nothing, because that is what the system tells you to do. If you run off and chase the ball, you may be breaking the defense and giving the other team an easy shot. That's a simplistic way of explaining it, but I expect that anyone who thinks about it will see the point. Unless you are a really good Xs and Os type, judging defense while watching a game is not as easy as it sounds.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:14 am    Post subject:

Stanley is def elite on defense.

Just because other teams didn't sign him doesn't mean he is not special on defense. His issue has always been offense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:52 am    Post subject:

scout_0 wrote:
Stanley is def elite on defense.

Just because other teams didn't sign him doesn't mean he is not special on defense. His issue has always been offense.


If Stanley is elite, than the guys who made 1st/2nd team all NBA defense must be gods.

We truly misuse terms like "elite" so that it is so watered down. Just a reminder, a dictionary definition of the term:

Quote:
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.


Is he superior? No. Is he terrible? Nope. I think he's average to slightly above average compared to his NBA peers. But using the Lakers as a subset, you could say he is "elite" compared to our Lakers, which includes a 37 year old LBJ, Russ, Monk, etc.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:07 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
scout_0 wrote:
Stanley is def elite on defense.

Just because other teams didn't sign him doesn't mean he is not special on defense. His issue has always been offense.


If Stanley is elite, than the guys who made 1st/2nd team all NBA defense must be gods.

We truly misuse terms like "elite" so that it is so watered down. Just a reminder, a dictionary definition of the term:

Quote:
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.


Is he superior? No. Is he terrible? Nope. I think he's average to slightly above average compared to his NBA peers. But using the Lakers as a subset, you could say he is "elite" compared to our Lakers, which includes a 37 year old LBJ, Russ, Monk, etc.


You’re measuring him vs other lakers players not me. As far as people who make defense teams Kobe was making it for years without deserving it. So there’s that. Again what does his offense have to do with his defense? We understand offense can keep you on the floor but that’s not the discussion. The discussion is about his defense. It’s elite even if you disagree. I ask again what’s keeping him from being elite?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:25 am    Post subject:

If
The man can play 1-5 without giving an inch. That flexibility alone makes him elite. How many players are able to do that and hold their own?

Not only that but he defends well everywhere. If a big tries to post him up he's super strong. On the perimeter his lateral quickness is impressive and he can stay in front of shifty players.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:28 am    Post subject:

I think watching Draymond first 3 finals game this year, if he wasn’t allowed to foul without called for a foul then maybe that’s Stanley
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:28 am    Post subject:

scout_0 wrote:
If
The man can play 1-5 without giving an inch. That flexibility alone makes him elite. How many players are able to do that and hold their own?

Not only that but he defends well everywhere. If a big tries to post him up he's super strong. On the perimeter his lateral quickness is impressive and he can stay in front of shifty players.


Well, this is a big season for him. He has to be able to stay on the floor to play more minutes.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:29 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
scout_0 wrote:
Stanley is def elite on defense.

Just because other teams didn't sign him doesn't mean he is not special on defense. His issue has always been offense.


If Stanley is elite, than the guys who made 1st/2nd team all NBA defense must be gods.

We truly misuse terms like "elite" so that it is so watered down. Just a reminder, a dictionary definition of the term:

Quote:
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.


Is he superior? No. Is he terrible? Nope. I think he's average to slightly above average compared to his NBA peers. But using the Lakers as a subset, you could say he is "elite" compared to our Lakers, which includes a 37 year old LBJ, Russ, Monk, etc.


You’re measuring him vs other lakers players not me. As far as people who make defense teams Kobe was making it for years without deserving it. So there’s that. Again what does his offense have to do with his defense? We understand offense can keep you on the floor but that’s not the discussion. The discussion is about his defense. It’s elite even if you disagree. I ask again what’s keeping him from being elite?


You considered him elite already.

And my response to that is that people are really watering down the definition of elite.

I think he's at average right now. Could he be elite? Who knows. But he isn't there yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:37 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
scout_0 wrote:
Stanley is def elite on defense.

Just because other teams didn't sign him doesn't mean he is not special on defense. His issue has always been offense.


If Stanley is elite, than the guys who made 1st/2nd team all NBA defense must be gods.

We truly misuse terms like "elite" so that it is so watered down. Just a reminder, a dictionary definition of the term:

Quote:
a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

Is he superior? No. Is he terrible? Nope. I think he's average to slightly above average compared to his NBA peers. But using the Lakers as a subset, you could say he is "elite" compared to our Lakers, which includes a 37 year old LBJ, Russ, Monk, etc.


You’re measuring him vs other lakers players not me. As far as people who make defense teams Kobe was making it for years without deserving it. So there’s that. Again what does his offense have to do with his defense? We understand offense can keep you on the floor but that’s not the discussion. The discussion is about his defense. It’s elite even if you disagree. I ask again what’s keeping him from being elite?


You considered him elite already.

And my response to that is that people are really watering down the definition of elite.

I think he's at average right now. Could he be elite? Who knows. But he isn't there yet.


Average???? Average??? Lol ok you can’t explain why he’s not elite or what will make him elite but you say I’m watering down the definition even though I give reasons why he’s elite lol
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:50 am    Post subject:

An average NBA level defender is a very good defender. Hey may have a chance to move from that to something better. That is a more realistic gauge of Stanley than calling him elite, in the company of Giannis/Jrue/Smart.

I think using the wisdom of the crowd, which selected the following as "elite" defenders is a good start. I have no disagreements with the following choices:

Marcus Smart, Boston Celtics
Mikal Bridges, Phoenix Suns
Rudy Gobert, Utah Jazz
Giannis Antetokounmpo, Milwaukee Bucks
Jaren Jackson Jr., Memphis Grizzlies

2021-22 NBA All-Defensive Second Team:
Bam Adebayo, Miami Heat
Jrue Holiday, Milwaukee Bucks
Matisse Thybulle, Philadelphia 76ers
Robert Williams III, Boston Celtics
Draymond Green, Golden State Warriors

You are conflating versatility with being "elite." What is your definition of "elite?" It's utterly subjective. You're telling me based on a 45 game sample size, and prior that season, he averaged about 15 minutes per game, he is considered worthy of making the 2 all NBA defensive teams?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject:

I think the ceiling should be high. He's a 6'6" guy, you don't want him
hitting his head.




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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:00 am    Post subject:

deal wrote:
I think the ceiling should be high. He's a 6'6" guy, you don't want him
hitting his head.





The question is, is he "elite" at hitting his head or just "average?"
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:04 am    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
deal wrote:
I think the ceiling should be high. He's a 6'6" guy, you don't want him
hitting his head.





The question is, is he "elite" at hitting his head or just "average?"


lol
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yinoma2001
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Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 115669

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:07 am    Post subject:

The thing is, I'm really rooting for Stanley. I like him a lot and am happy we will have him next season (and his early bird rights thereafter). I think we need to just be a bit realistic about his growth. He will likely be one of our best overall defenders next year, but that's a product of his own growth and the likelihood that with such few assets, the Lakers can't really improve the team via FA.
_________________
LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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