X's and O's -- what are the principles of Darvin Ham's 4 out - 1 in offense
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Scherm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:07 pm    Post subject: X's and O's -- what are the principles of Darvin Ham's 4 out - 1 in offense

I liked how Darvin Ham talked about 360 basketball -- equal emphasis on offense and defense, and emphasizing ball & body movement instead of offensive and defensive coordinators.

Do any of our Xs and Os people know how the 4 out 1-in offense functions?

I also liked how he's not a fan of 13-dribble possessions.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:13 pm    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:25 pm    Post subject:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:48 pm    Post subject:

Designed to open up driving lanes and smartly position the 1-in player in the dunker and corners. From there they can initiate some screens. The 1-in can often be a small. For instance, picture Russ coming from the dunker spot up high to set a quick screen for LeBron on the drive. He could also set pin-in screens to open up the corner if Russ's defender is replaced by the weakside corner defender. (This would open up corner threes.)

This might also open up open up corner threes for AD, which would be a better look for him and improve his percentages/effectiveness. Tricky issue with Russ is that if you use him like that to try to get an advantage with a smaller help defender down low, teams will just start guarding Russ with their big.

Typical rule is the first man down takes that dunker spot as the 1-in, so it will be other guards, as well.

In any event, it's a smart but simple scheme that fits the personnel pretty well. If you have the ball in LeBron's hands and the help is a small in the paint, they will be toast similar to how they are toast with Giannis.

I would just look at everything the Bucks ran. They are one of the best ATO teams, so I'm sure we're stealing all that. The inbounds stuff should be great. They also love to get those early offense quick hit types of plays that are sort of organized chaos. This would also help Russ, too, in that he can be a trigger man vs. a shooter. Some of the actions are designed for Giannis to draw the defender's of shooters as teams need to wall him off. So they do that with some intelligence.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:13 pm    Post subject:

If he's using Villanova's offense:

1. Run post ups and ball screens and ALWAYS look to score first.
2. You'll never be more open then when you first catch the ball. If you're open, shoot it, if not drive it.
3. Pass and cut.
4. Pump fakes and jump stop. Do things off 2 feet. (This should be good for RW).
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:16 pm    Post subject:

Thanks DB and Epic.

Part of why I like LakersGround.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:50 pm    Post subject:

DancingBarry wrote:
Designed to open up driving lanes and smartly position the 1-in player in the dunker and corners. From there they can initiate some screens. The 1-in can often be a small. For instance, picture Russ coming from the dunker spot up high to set a quick screen for LeBron on the drive. He could also set pin-in screens to open up the corner if Russ's defender is replaced by the weakside corner defender. (This would open up corner threes.)

This might also open up open up corner threes for AD, which would be a better look for him and improve his percentages/effectiveness. Tricky issue with Russ is that if you use him like that to try to get an advantage with a smaller help defender down low, teams will just start guarding Russ with their big.

Typical rule is the first man down takes that dunker spot as the 1-in, so it will be other guards, as well.

In any event, it's a smart but simple scheme that fits the personnel pretty well. If you have the ball in LeBron's hands and the help is a small in the paint, they will be toast similar to how they are toast with Giannis.

I would just look at everything the Bucks ran. They are one of the best ATO teams, so I'm sure we're stealing all that. The inbounds stuff should be great. They also love to get those early offense quick hit types of plays that are sort of organized chaos. This would also help Russ, too, in that he can be a trigger man vs. a shooter. Some of the actions are designed for Giannis to draw the defender's of shooters as teams need to wall him off. So they do that with some intelligence.

Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:40 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
DancingBarry wrote:
…….y do that with some intelligence.

Nick breakdown, thanks DB. But will Russ be willing to focus on setting screens like that, especially when it won't result in him doing something of note with the ball?


He simply has to buy in or be traded at the trade deadline.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:43 am    Post subject:

"Villanova Wildcats Jay Wright Motion Offense - Film Room"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8hsWWn6zCk

Kind of gives me Warrior vibes, everyone moving and cutting. Lets see if Lebron and Westbrook are willing to be constantly moving on offense.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:20 am    Post subject:

Imagine "roll and replace" with Westbrook as ball handler, lebron as screener, and AD as replacer
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:11 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
If he's using Villanova's offense:

1. Run post ups and ball screens and ALWAYS look to score first.
2. You'll never be more open then when you first catch the ball. If you're open, shoot it, if not drive it.
3. Pass and cut.
4. Pump fakes and jump stop. Do things off 2 feet. (This should be good for RW).


If he's telling Westbrook to do this, we're in deep poop.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:34 am    Post subject:

I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:35 am    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
Imagine "roll and replace" with Westbrook as ball handler, lebron as screener, and AD as replacer


Didn’t they do that on one play last season?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:38 am    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
"Villanova Wildcats Jay Wright Motion Offense - Film Room"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8hsWWn6zCk

Kind of gives me Warrior vibes, everyone moving and cutting. Lets see if Lebron and Westbrook are willing to be constantly moving on offense.


That may be a problem for Lebron. I believe Westbrook did that in Houston
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 11:58 am    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:02 pm    Post subject:

Any way you cut it, Russ is anti-gravity. So how does that work on a 4 out system? His man will always be hovering as a help defender.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:03 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Sounds sketchy. I know AD has better handles than most PFs but is it in the same league as Giannis? Expecting Westbrook to play defense is a lost cause. Do what you can to make him serviceable at that area.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:19 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Who said anything about what level of defense? Jru is used for defense only but he’s a decent offensive player. So in other words he won’t focus on offense so much. Also he was a decent defender when he entered the league and like most players forgot how to play defense
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 1:38 pm    Post subject:

LakesGnrLake wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Sounds sketchy. I know AD has better handles than most PFs but is it in the same league as Giannis? Expecting Westbrook to play defense is a lost cause. Do what you can to make him serviceable at that area.


Does his handle need to be the same level as Giannis to blow by a center? He seems to get there at will when he wants to.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:17 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Westbrook is actually pretty good in playing his man, when his man has the ball. His problem usually comes from ball watching (when he's offball), jumping passing lanes (and missing), and help defense.

It will be truly interesting to see if the coaching staff can get WB to show restraint offball.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:49 pm    Post subject:

Car54 wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Who said anything about what level of defense? Jru is used for defense only but he’s a decent offensive player. So in other words he won’t focus on offense so much. Also he was a decent defender when he entered the league and like most players forgot how to play defense


What the heck does β€œbe used defensively like Jru” mean then if you can’t even match his level of defense? Jrue is quite important to the Bucks defensively.
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20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
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AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
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Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:49 pm    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Westbrook is actually pretty good in playing his man, when his man has the ball. His problem usually comes from ball watching (when he's offball), jumping passing lanes (and missing), and help defense.

It will be truly interesting to see if the coaching staff can get WB to show restraint offball.


Watch the Warriors and Celts. Off ball is how they can kill you. On ball defense is important but so is off ball, equally so.
_________________
LBJ missed games:
20-21: 27/72 (37.5% missed)
21-22: 26/82 (31% missed)

AD missed games:
20-21: 36/72 (50% missed)
21-22: 40/82 (48% missed)

Lakers wins and win%:
20-21: 42-30 (58% win)
21-22: 33-49 (40% win)
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:53 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission


So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?


Westbrook is actually pretty good in playing his man, when his man has the ball. His problem usually comes from ball watching (when he's offball), jumping passing lanes (and missing), and help defense.

It will be truly interesting to see if the coaching staff can get WB to show restraint offball.


Watch the Warriors and Celts. Off ball is how they can kill you. On ball defense is important but so is off ball, equally so.


We know this.
That's why it'll be interesting to see if the coach will keep RW accountable on off ball defense.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:55 am    Post subject:

epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
epic_ wrote:
yinoma2001 wrote:
Car54 wrote:
I was listening to Laker Film Room this AM and they pointed out how Darvin Hams presser they believe AD is gonna be used like Giannis and Westbrook is gonna be used Defensively like Jru I’m excited that Russ is gonna make that his mission
So Russ is going to go from bottom percentile defender to all-NBA level defender in one season? Do y'all know how good Jrue has been his entire career as a defender?
Westbrook is actually pretty good in playing his man, when his man has the ball. His problem usually comes from ball watching (when he's offball), jumping passing lanes (and missing), and help defense.

It will be truly interesting to see if the coaching staff can get WB to show restraint offball.
Watch the Warriors and Celts. Off ball is how they can kill you. On ball defense is important but so is off ball, equally so.
We know this. That's why it'll be interesting to see if the coach will keep RW accountable on off ball defense.
Big questions if Russ will be disciplined enough to play the 4 Out/1 In Continuity Offense (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1web5EWR9zI) where Hamm (https://youtu.be/5sIyA1DWqhk) is requiring "Competiveness Togetherness Accountability" from every player.

What variation of Coach Bud's defensive schemes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQt6vn-Pic) can the Lakers realistically play, given that they don't presently have a legitimate "Big" (hmm, can Dwight play this version of a "5") or a legitimate PG that can defend.

Will Russ Play D? Will last season's "efforts" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqYyyjd6sns and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIYfZrEyZ3k) be seen again/allowed to continue to happen, as noted by these past examples
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kuoF5mDCPw

With Russ doing the same problems in the beginning of the season (see Warriors Game - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAhylgz1uOA) at the end of the season, Westbrook has no "gravity" and clogs up any and all offensive schemes and lack of defensive effort consistently put the other defenders in bad situations.

Could one question Russ' "Basketball IQ" (remembering how Pau and Kobe worked seamlessly and effectively on their first game together)
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:57 am    Post subject:

I want to believe so bad that if Josh Hart, Donte DiVincenzo and Jalen Brunson can play the offense, then Russell Westbrook can too.

I'm keeping the dream alive!
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