View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
LakerSD Franchise Player
Joined: 10 Nov 2016 Posts: 23731
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
RashardA wrote: | In all my years as a Lakers fan I've never wanted the Buss family to sell.
The Lakers are so mismanaged I've gotten to that point.
They have not a (bleep) clue what they are doing, and they show it day after day after day by making horrible decision after horrible decision. |
The Buss family is doubling down on an extended series on Hulu!! All about $$$$ and talking about how they won in 2020 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
logical24 Star Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2019 Posts: 3193
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This has Turner and Buddy written all over! |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mad55557777 Franchise Player
Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 22801
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Dennis100mtrash wrote: | wolfpaclaker wrote: | It's a move that I don't know if I really wanted to happen. I think we should have kept the extension off the table until FA. We needed to give it a year and see how it goes.
But maybe this extension was needed in order to give the Lakers the comfort zone to deal the 2 FRPs to make a "big" move. We'll know soon enough.
Either way. I'm not excited one bit. This is the least exciting "big" move we've made in the last few years. |
lol, expectations and reality are 2 different things.
this is the same owner who gave max to kobe after he tore his Achilles. you think she is not going to do same for a full healthy guy who averaged what 30points last year? |
she did not give max to Kobe, it was about 8-10 mil less per year. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JUST-MING Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 43954
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Laker's Fan wrote: |
Something tells me LeBron entering year 22 isn't going to be at the top of the league anymore. Of course that could be wrong. But another two years given what we have seen over the last three suggests he will still be good but perhaps not great, or even not an everyday player.
|
He still provides leadership and a pipeline of klutch free agents on a discount. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
27 Star Player
Joined: 26 Sep 2010 Posts: 4439 Location: Los Angeles, CA
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This is common sense at this point. Id hope Lakers were looking to do that regardless of a LeBron extension.
As many have pointed out, A Kyrie trade, at least at this early point, is unlikely.
I'd love to start the season with Westbrook off the team and a handful of role players (or Kyrie) on the team but time will tell.
There really isn't anywhere LeBron would go until his son is drafted in. This extension was a no brainer for both parties and while I hope it means we improve the team sooner than later, I am not convinced that is what will happen |
|
Back to top |
|
|
activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
levon wrote: | RashardA wrote: | In all my years as a Lakers fan I've never wanted the Buss family to sell.
The Lakers are so mismanaged I've gotten to that point.
They have not a (bleep) clue what they are doing, and they show it day after day after day by making horrible decision after horrible decision. |
I'll bite. How is extending a top 10 player in the league, one who posted the same impact numbers on about the same number of games played last year as KD, a horrible decision? |
I don't have any problem with them extending Lebron.
I just don't know why, if that was their approach, they have had such a fetish about keeping 2023 cap space open.
For example, if they were willing to give two-year contract with the mMLE, you would think they could have landed someone better than Lonnie Walker. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
JUST-MING Retired Number
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 43954
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Everyone knows why they plan to have cap space in 2023. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ocho wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ocho wrote: | Bronny James can become eligible for the 2024 Draft, the same year Lebron can now opt out and become UFA. |
At this point, Bronny doesn't look like an NBA prospect who is worthy of being drafted.
I doubt a team is going to spend a second-round pick on him with the hopes that Lebron opts out and signs with them as a reduced rate.
More likely, Bronny's agent would ask teams not to draft him, and they'll respect that, because based on talent he's not worth a second round pick.
And then Bronny may sign onto whatever team his dad is on, similar to how we signed Giannis' brother. |
A lot can happen to his stock, good or bad, in 2 years. Some guys who aren’t even recruited become lottery picks. Some top recruits flake out. I am confident though that he will be on an NBA team in some capacity because of the circumstances. |
Sure. I'm just saying at this moment there is no reason to think that Bronny would be considered a legitimate prospect based on his talent. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
activeverb wrote: | levon wrote: | RashardA wrote: | In all my years as a Lakers fan I've never wanted the Buss family to sell.
The Lakers are so mismanaged I've gotten to that point.
They have not a (bleep) clue what they are doing, and they show it day after day after day by making horrible decision after horrible decision. |
I'll bite. How is extending a top 10 player in the league, one who posted the same impact numbers on about the same number of games played last year as KD, a horrible decision? |
I don't have any problem with them extending Lebron.
I just don't know why, if that was their approach, they have had such a fetish about keeping 2023 cap space open.
For example, if they were willing to give two-year contract with the mMLE, you would think they could have landed someone better than Lonnie Walker. |
Well, the reporting was they were going to sign Kyrie anyway in free agency in 2023, which is obviously difficult without his bird rights (frankly unimaginable, unless Kyrie's market truly becomes around 15m a year due to his warts).
But even if it's not Kyrie, the 15-20m they can carve out is reasonable high-quality starter money, or two-good-role-players money. We haven't had non-tpMLE or non-minimum slots in a while. Seems reasonable for them to want that flexibility and not signal to teams that taking back bad money is something they're open to.
As for Walker, I don't understand the signing for this year but I'm hoping Ham can turn him around defensively. Kuzma was a god awful defender too until the covid pandemic. If so, we might really like what we see from him and pay him starter money, or give him a raise beyond his 2nd year player option would pay.
For them to clear any max space in 2023, they'd have to renounce Lebron's rights anyway. There were really no top-10 free agents available to pair with AD that you could definitively say would be better than Lebron. I think it's more about optionality than landing another star.
Last edited by levon on Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JUST-MING wrote: | Laker's Fan wrote: |
Something tells me LeBron entering year 22 isn't going to be at the top of the league anymore. Of course that could be wrong. But another two years given what we have seen over the last three suggests he will still be good but perhaps not great, or even not an everyday player.
|
He still provides leadership and a pipeline of klutch free agents on a discount. |
Have we ever gotten a Klutch free agent on a discount? Seems like we always paid market rate or higher. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
levon wrote: |
But even if it's not Kyrie, the 15-20m they can carve out is reasonable high-quality starter money, or two-good-role-players money. We haven't had non-tpMLE or non-minimum slots in a while. Seems reasonable for them to want that flexibility and not signal to teams that taking back bad money is something they're open to.
As for Walker, I don't understand the signing for this year but I'm hoping Ham can turn him around defensively. Kuzma was a god awful defender too until the covid pandemic. If so, we might really like what we see from him and pay him starter money, or give him a raise beyond his 2nd year player option would pay.
For them to clear any max space in 2023, they'd have to renounce Lebron's rights anyway. There were really no top-10 free agents available to pair with AD that you could definitively say would be better than Lebron. I think it's more about optionality than landing another star. |
I don’t see any master plan at work in anything the Lakers do. Seems like GMing based on crossing-your-fingers and hoping you get a lucky break. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gng930 Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 11475
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
activeverb wrote: | gng930 wrote: | activeverb wrote: | ocho wrote: | Bronny James can become eligible for the 2024 Draft, the same year Lebron can now opt out and become UFA. |
At this point, Bronny doesn't look like an NBA prospect who is worthy of being drafted.
I doubt a team is going to spend a second-round pick on him with the hopes that Lebron opts out and signs with them as a reduced rate.
More likely, Bronny's agent would ask teams not to draft him, and they'll respect that, because based on talent he's not worth a second round pick.
And then Bronny may sign onto whatever team his dad is on, similar to how we signed Giannis' brother. |
Bronny's class ranking has fluctuated between 30th and 60th. Anything else is entirely speculative. |
Well, yes, his rank among high school basketball players has fluctuated between 30-60th. But the 30-60th best high school player in the country isn’t generally considered an NBA draft prospect.
If Bronny wasn't Lebron's son, no one would be talking about him as an NBA prospect right now. |
Unless you're a scout or team official that absolutely is speculation. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
activeverb wrote: | levon wrote: |
But even if it's not Kyrie, the 15-20m they can carve out is reasonable high-quality starter money, or two-good-role-players money. We haven't had non-tpMLE or non-minimum slots in a while. Seems reasonable for them to want that flexibility and not signal to teams that taking back bad money is something they're open to.
As for Walker, I don't understand the signing for this year but I'm hoping Ham can turn him around defensively. Kuzma was a god awful defender too until the covid pandemic. If so, we might really like what we see from him and pay him starter money, or give him a raise beyond his 2nd year player option would pay.
For them to clear any max space in 2023, they'd have to renounce Lebron's rights anyway. There were really no top-10 free agents available to pair with AD that you could definitively say would be better than Lebron. I think it's more about optionality than landing another star. |
I don’t see any master plan at work in anything the Lakers do. Seems like GMing based on crossing-your-fingers and hoping you get a lucky break. |
I don't think that's giving them enough credit. It's fair to criticize them about the 2 year rookie deals and their MLE signings and letting Schroeder walk, letting Caruso walk, and the Westbrook trade, but the trade with Cleveland to clear room for Lebron and a second max was sound. So was the maneuvering to clear a third max spot for Kawhi after trading for Davis, as was plan B in signing Danny Green. Even holding on to Kuzma in the Davis deal paid huge dividends.
I'm sure there will be some pretty solid pieces in 2023 FA to split that cap between, along with our MLE. That's a lot of opportunities to recoup role players.
We'll see how the Westbrook situation plays out. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gng930 Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 11475
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
activeverb wrote: | levon wrote: | RashardA wrote: | In all my years as a Lakers fan I've never wanted the Buss family to sell.
The Lakers are so mismanaged I've gotten to that point.
They have not a (bleep) clue what they are doing, and they show it day after day after day by making horrible decision after horrible decision. |
I'll bite. How is extending a top 10 player in the league, one who posted the same impact numbers on about the same number of games played last year as KD, a horrible decision? |
I don't have any problem with them extending Lebron.
I just don't know why, if that was their approach, they have had such a fetish about keeping 2023 cap space open.
For example, if they were willing to give two-year contract with the mMLE, you would think they could have landed someone better than Lonnie Walker. |
Indeed this looks incredibly silly now. It really does suggest a lack of direction. The cherry on top would be stretching Russ when you could have done it earlier to be a bigger player in free agency. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Laker's Fan Franchise Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2002 Posts: 12813
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JUST-MING wrote: | Laker's Fan wrote: |
Something tells me LeBron entering year 22 isn't going to be at the top of the league anymore. Of course that could be wrong. But another two years given what we have seen over the last three suggests he will still be good but perhaps not great, or even not an everyday player.
|
He still provides leadership and a pipeline of klutch free agents on a discount. |
Other than helping to bring Davis, who are the Klutch represented players we've gotten at a discount or as a benefit of having LeBron on the team? We grossly overpaid KCP, Trez and THT. So far Nunn has looked like and overpay, with many saying Walker was likewise an overpay. Other Bron/Davis centric acquisitions (e.g. Russ, DeAndre, Carmelo) haven't been positives either.
We got some nice value minimum signing this year from Klutch, but it remains to be seen if they play significant dividends, and none of them were better than minimum players to start with. _________________ Austin Reaves keeps his game tight, like Kobe Bryant on game night. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
governator Franchise Player
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 24996
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
logical24 wrote: |
This has Turner and Buddy written all over! |
Wing and big, it do sound like it. A first and couple seconds I hope |
|
Back to top |
|
|
activeverb Retired Number
Joined: 17 Jun 2006 Posts: 37470
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Laker's Fan wrote: | JUST-MING wrote: | Laker's Fan wrote: |
Something tells me LeBron entering year 22 isn't going to be at the top of the league anymore. Of course that could be wrong. But another two years given what we have seen over the last three suggests he will still be good but perhaps not great, or even not an everyday player.
|
He still provides leadership and a pipeline of klutch free agents on a discount. |
Other than helping to bring Davis, who are the Klutch represented players we've gotten at a discount or as a benefit of having LeBron on the team? We grossly overpaid KCP, Trez and THT. So far Nunn has looked like and overpay, with many saying Walker was likewise an overpay. Other Bron/Davis centric acquisitions (e.g. Russ, DeAndre, Carmelo) haven't been positives either.
We got some nice value minimum signing this year from Klutch, but it remains to be seen if they play significant dividends, and none of them were better than minimum players to start with. |
And, really, providing players at a discount isn't Klutch's job. Players don't sign up with Klutch so they can get less money in order to support Lebron. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
gng930 Franchise Player
Joined: 13 Apr 2001 Posts: 11475
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
levon wrote: | activeverb wrote: | levon wrote: |
But even if it's not Kyrie, the 15-20m they can carve out is reasonable high-quality starter money, or two-good-role-players money. We haven't had non-tpMLE or non-minimum slots in a while. Seems reasonable for them to want that flexibility and not signal to teams that taking back bad money is something they're open to.
As for Walker, I don't understand the signing for this year but I'm hoping Ham can turn him around defensively. Kuzma was a god awful defender too until the covid pandemic. If so, we might really like what we see from him and pay him starter money, or give him a raise beyond his 2nd year player option would pay.
For them to clear any max space in 2023, they'd have to renounce Lebron's rights anyway. There were really no top-10 free agents available to pair with AD that you could definitively say would be better than Lebron. I think it's more about optionality than landing another star. |
I don’t see any master plan at work in anything the Lakers do. Seems like GMing based on crossing-your-fingers and hoping you get a lucky break. |
I don't think that's giving them enough credit. It's fair to criticize them about the 2 year rookie deals and their MLE signings and letting Schroeder walk, letting Caruso walk, and the Westbrook trade, but the trade with Cleveland to clear room for Lebron and a second max was sound. So was the maneuvering to clear a third max spot for Kawhi after trading for Davis, as was plan B in signing Danny Green. Even holding on to Kuzma in the Davis deal paid huge dividends.
I'm sure there will be some pretty solid pieces in 2023 FA to split that cap between, along with our MLE. That's a lot of opportunities to recoup role players.
We'll see how the Westbrook situation plays out. |
There certainly are ways to recoup value, it's just unfortunate that they have to do any recouping at all when you have/had a razor-thin contention window with Lebron. Klutch influence or not, the Russ trade was an absolutely blunder that most foresaw compounded by the assets lost. They are bleeding assets further when they insist on essentially one year deals for whom they would then have to weigh using their scarce exception(s) the following summer to retain. They may get value for Russ or in FA next summer. I just don't see them getting both with the deals being reported out there and our impending FAs that may cannibalize that cap space next summer and limit any net gains. _________________ Luxury Tax/FA Spreadsheet (Save to your Google Drive to edit) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
King Randle Star Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2014 Posts: 7313
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
governator wrote: | logical24 wrote: |
This has Turner and Buddy written all over! |
Wing and big, it do sound like it. A first and couple seconds I hope |
Thanks Logical it sure does. If I'm a betting man I don't believe Bron signs without an assurance from Rob that he's improving this roster. And as we all know and was reported, that meeting was had and Rob made that promise. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
levon Franchise Player
Joined: 11 Oct 2016 Posts: 10353
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
gng930 wrote: |
There certainly are ways to recoup value, it's just unfortunate that they have to do any recouping at all when you have/had a razor-thin contention window with Lebron. Klutch influence or not, the Russ trade was an absolutely blunder that most foresaw compounded by the assets lost. They are bleeding assets further when they insist on essentially one year deals and then having to weight using their scarce exception(s) the following summer to retain them. They may get value for Russ or in FA next summer. I just don't see them getting both with the deals being reported out there and our impending FAs that may cannibalize that cap space next summer and limit any net gains. |
If I'm going to be honest, I didn't even expect a single title from the Lebron James era and I thought his greatest contribution would be getting that next guy to sign. And he delivered both.
I am reasonably worried about the future after this era, not because I don't think we'll be able to sign stars after Bron and AD are gone, but because I'm not confident they'll be good enough to contend for a long time with this middling to below-average front office.
But there are a lot of bad or subpar decisions made around the league that receive absolutely zero long-term scrutiny by virtue of not being the Lakers. And there is plenty of success that is "lucked" into , some even amounting in titles and others not yielding anything at all due to other bad luck or mismanagement. And yet those front offices aren't considered ones that fail upwards that grossly mismanage everything.
Let's consider Houston, another team that traded for Westbrook. They traded 2 first rounders and Chris Paul for Westbrook. Then they received another first from the Wizards who traded for Westbrook, which was a bad deal considering what they achieved. Houston's collapse resulted in Harden wanting out in a deal in which they took the consensus worst offer at the time. But now that Brooklyn's collapsing prematurely, those Nets picks look great.
There are 3-4 examples in there of teams "failing upwards" or lucking in to better situations. Most of those front offices are probably middling or below average. It's just difficult to really evaluate that.
Anyway, all this to say, it's hard to really evaluate the compounding effects of a "good" or "bad" move until a lot of time has passed, after which it's still very hard. So I just try to keep my expectations reasonable.
That said, if Westbrook is on the team and playing basketball this season, I will be screaming my head off at least once a game. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Bron2AD Star Player
Joined: 01 Jun 2021 Posts: 8712
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
LakerSD wrote: | RashardA wrote: | In all my years as a Lakers fan I've never wanted the Buss family to sell.
The Lakers are so mismanaged I've gotten to that point.
They have not a (bleep) clue what they are doing, and they show it day after day after day by making horrible decision after horrible decision. |
The Buss family is doubling down on an extended series on Hulu!! All about $$$$ and talking about how they won in 2020 |
As a business owner, would you let go off of your money making machine? I don't think so.
Reality is even the Kyrie deal, this is not a championship roster |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Aeneas Hunter Retired Number
Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 31763
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
levon wrote: | I'm sure there will be some pretty solid pieces in 2023 FA to split that cap between, along with our MLE. That's a lot of opportunities to recoup role players.
We'll see how the Westbrook situation plays out. |
Let's be clear on the numbers when it comes to cap space. Here is how I understand it. V+ can correct me if I'm wrong.
If we make the Hield/Turner trade, we will not have any significant cap space next summer. This is because Hield will still be on the books. I believe that we would have the full MLE. So we would have Lebron, Davis, Hield, THT (assuming that he opts in), and whatever is left on the roster. What would matter here is how much room we have under the tax threshold. Jeanie does not want to be a repeater, so presumably we won't cross that line. We could use that room for the MLE, the Early Bird for Nunn, the early Bird for Reaves, the full Bird for Turner, or some combination of these. We could not do them all, or even a majority.
If we make the Irving/Harris trade, then we would have no cap space. In fact, we would probably need to scramble to dump assets if we want to offer Irving a max contract, given that Jeanie wants to stay under the tax line. If Jeanie changes her mind and is willing to pay the repeater tax, then everything becomes more workable.
If we just let Westbrook expire, we will have about $20M in cap space plus the room exception (not the MLE). V+ laid out the numbers at the top of page 7 of his stickied thread. You can play around with the assumptions. If we strip the roster (in particular, if THT opts out or if we trade him for nothing, and we renounce Reaves), we can get to about $30M.
If you think that we could clear that much space and that we could sign Irving, then we would have Lebron, Davis, Irving, a room exception player, and basically nothing else (Christie, some rookies, and some vet mins). If you don't think we could get Irving, then we would have Lebron, Davis, a room exception player, whoever we could sign for a total of $30M in a thin free agent class, and basically nothing else.
It's not pretty, but that's how it looks. _________________ Internet Argument Resolved |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Inspector Gadget Retired Number
Joined: 18 Apr 2016 Posts: 46492
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
27 wrote: |
This is common sense at this point. Id hope Lakers were looking to do that regardless of a LeBron extension.
As many have pointed out, A Kyrie trade, at least at this early point, is unlikely.
I'd love to start the season with Westbrook off the team and a handful of role players (or Kyrie) on the team but time will tell.
There really isn't anywhere LeBron would go until his son is drafted in. This extension was a no brainer for both parties and while I hope it means we improve the team sooner than later, I am not convinced that is what will happen |
No where has it been said that a Irving deal is unlikely, every 1 is waiting for the KD domino to fall. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
M2K Star Player
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 Posts: 2432
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
rybee wrote: | Hopefully this means a trade is coming soon lol |
_________________ A three headed monster... Jeannie, Pelinka, and Ham... another terrible season. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
M2K Star Player
Joined: 20 Feb 2011 Posts: 2432
|
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Smells like Myles and Buddy... _________________ A three headed monster... Jeannie, Pelinka, and Ham... another terrible season. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|