He’s back. He was taken there for a day without warning and not because he was sick or injured. He told embassy people that the Wagner group was recruiting mercenaries and they didn’t want him around seeing that. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
The U.S. only had the opportunity to bring one detainee home from Russia in the recent prisoner swap, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said.
“This was not a choice of which American to bring home. The choice was one or none,” Mr. Blinken told reporters in Washington after the release of U.S. basketball star Brittney Griner.
Clearly, one side got fleeced on this one... because, I didn't know Bout was a basketball guy caught with hashish... or was Griner an arms dealer who promotes wars?
either way, this reminds you of some of the worst trades in NBA history. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
He’s back. He was taken there for a day without warning and not because he was sick or injured. He told embassy people that the Wagner group was recruiting mercenaries and they didn’t want him around seeing that.
Thanks Omar. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
The U.S. only had the opportunity to bring one detainee home from Russia in the recent prisoner swap, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said.
“This was not a choice of which American to bring home. The choice was one or none,” Mr. Blinken told reporters in Washington after the release of U.S. basketball star Brittney Griner.
Clearly, one side got fleeced on this one... because, I didn't know Bout was a basketball guy caught with hashish... or was Griner an arms dealer who promotes wars?
either way, this reminds you of some of the worst trades in NBA history.
Bout did 12 years of a 25 year sentence. Brittney did 6 months of a nine year sentence. I take that as a win. In order for the trade to be even by time served BG would have to serve around 5 years. Bout committed the more serious crime but how can you equate him to BG. Which side do you think got fleeced? _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
The U.S. only had the opportunity to bring one detainee home from Russia in the recent prisoner swap, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said.
“This was not a choice of which American to bring home. The choice was one or none,” Mr. Blinken told reporters in Washington after the release of U.S. basketball star Brittney Griner.
Clearly, one side got fleeced on this one... because, I didn't know Bout was a basketball guy caught with hashish... or was Griner an arms dealer who promotes wars?
either way, this reminds you of some of the worst trades in NBA history.
Bout did 12 years of a 25 year sentence. Brittney did 6 months of a nine year sentence. I take that as a win. In order for the trade to be even by time served BG would have to serve around 5 years. Bout committed the more serious crime but how can you equate him to BG. Which side do you think got fleeced?
the side that released an enabler of death clearly got fleeced. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
Totally agree with DMR. She put herself in this position.
You take your life in your hands when you try to earn a living in a country like Russia. Why you would decide to engage in the types of activity she was (even something relatively minor like weed) in a country like that is beyond me. No reasonable person would flout the law and custom in a country like that and ignore the possible consequences if caught.
Are the charges trumped up? Sure, maybe. But come on. You're opening yourself up to unpredictable complications if something goes wrong.
What's the difference between Griner and Otto Warmbier?
Russia and Putin are bad enough, but NK and Kim are the worst of the worst and the most dangerous of the most dangerous. Warmbier was, unfortunately for him, naive to the point of Social Darwinism. He was told not to go there and thought it would be fun to go anyway. Then in that country, he takes a Kim propaganda poster. He was early 20s, so he was tragically stupid in a worldly sense and didn't know that he could've had an equal amount of excitement by swimming across the crocodile river w/ the wildebeest in Africa. I felt for the kid and his family because 20 can and does kill. Most of the time, it's alcohol & vehicle related instead of 3rd World totalitarian sh-hole related.
Griner was naive as hell, too. So were the Ball idiots who got spared the Commie prison experience. Griner, however, at least did something that was even marginally arguable. Had she known what was going to happen to her FOR REAL if caught w/ that, maybe she would've wised up, but Warmbier's move was on another level of horrifying. Young Westerners who went to Iraq/Afghanistan, etc, during wartime also took risks they shouldn't have. Altruism can kill like it did the young girl who died in a US airstrike while US boots were trying to find her. They all don't end up like Jessica Buchanan. I don't know if well-intentioned people like that learn they shouldn't have traveled where they did after they had to be rescued. It's hard to beat that mindset out of do-gooders. Maybe you can try to show them how many do-good things there are in a safer place. Casual young Western travelers who get killed by terrorists in terroristy places for no good reason? Remember a NYT story of a young American couple who wanted to bicycle thru Tajikistan and got mowed over by a terrorist in a car who spotted them and decided to do it on the fly while he had them in his sights. Beheadings of two young blonde women from Sweden/Norway (or the likes) about a decade ago. Went to a violent place advised against traveling to, got beheaded by a group of terrorists while they were asleep. Heard the audio of one of them, grotesque. Young kills. Naivete kills.
Went on a tangent, but I put cases like that and Warmbier way ahead of Griner. She did something undeniably foolish, but it was something within the realm of reason. She brought her American casualness to a place it didn't belong. But there's that and taking a holiday in beautiful Somalia or stealing a Kim Jong Un poster in MFin NK. NK is Bad Idea Jeans from SNL level. There's levels to everything in this world, Poly. That said, I don't want any of them to die for bad judgment or youthful ignorance. I just would like not hearing about such easy tossaways of a young person's life. She and the Ball kids are VERY lucky.
RE: the trade, you have to weigh relative futures. They didn't do the Buchanan rescue until the exact point that they saw her from a drone doubling over in pain and it then became immediately urgent because she was in her 30s with a lot of potential life remaining. Griner for a guy who didn't finish his sentence is not the most ideal trade for numerous reasons, but Griner was a young person who could've deteriorated over time like Warmbier did. It's the right move morally if not the most ideal one in terms of criminal justice. And Putin's not going to give the US an ideal swap no matter what, so get her back home while you can. You're giving up a 50stgh year old who at least did over a decade and went thru adjudication to begin with. We got less justice out of the fates of the Lockerbee bombers. Ideally, you would've wanted Bout to do all 25, but you have to weigh outcomes at least to some extent. Were Russia asking for a spy back, I don't know if that would've been a deal breaker, but it's usually spy vs spy for those exchanges. _________________ GOAT MAGIC REEL SEDALE TRIBUTE EDDIE DONX!
Last edited by non-player zealot on Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
“I am so glad that Brittney Griner is on her way home,” David Whelan, Paul’s twin brother, said in a statement Thursday. “As the family member of a Russian hostage, I can literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays. There is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be free and for them to go home The Biden Administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home, and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
Of course that's the public statement they would make (and that's exactly how that reads, a carefully scripted PR statement), to say anything else would be inappropriate.
But regardless of how they feel, it doesn't change the fact that this was a very lopsided deal in Russia's favor that sets a terrible precedent for negotiating future exchanges.
Taking David Whelan's statement in context I'm in agreement the administration made the right decision. You take what you can and bring one American citizen home or continue negotiating and leave both in Russian custody. Biden wasn't played he took the best deal he could get.
When dealing with Russia setting precedents is a complicated undertaking. One country has humanitarian standards the other cares nothing for the people. Russia has the advantage and will use that advantage to the max.
Was the deal lopsided, yes? Did Biden get played, no? IMO Biden played the cards he was dealt and then took the best deal offered. Brittney was a political pawn. Paul Whelan is still in the mix.
And now the US has given Russia all the incentive they need to snatch up another US citizen, charge them with a "crime" and to use them as a pawn. They won't need to put Whelan "in the mix" to get what they want in the future, because the pawn worked. Especially since the US has now agreed through acceptance that Whelan will only be traded for another spy. Every future negotiation that may arise in the future will only get more lopsided, and that definitely makes Whlean NOT in the mix. Anytime you let the other side dictate all the terms and just accept what is given, you have definitely been played. Biden has got the US a feel good story, but it has come at a price because the US bargaining power has been reduced. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52656 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:15 pm Post subject:
It’s also interesting to see how many justify this by saying, “Hey, the terrible arms dealer who armed terrorists and is responsible for the deaths of innocents was going to get out prison one day anyway”, while saying Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and seems otherwise shady, so essentially “who cares?” _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 26 Apr 2004 Posts: 17249 Location: In a no-ship
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:42 pm Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
It’s also interesting to see how many justify this by saying, “Hey, the terrible arms dealer who armed terrorists and is responsible for the deaths of innocents was going to get out prison one day anyway”, while saying Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and seems otherwise shady, so essentially “who cares?”
And if he immediately goes back to his old ways, I'm sure he'll be responsible for allied deaths in the Ukrainian conflict.
We can only hope that US intelligence is keeping close eyes on him and will eliminate him the moment he makes himself vulnerable.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:45 pm Post subject:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
It’s also interesting to see how many justify this by saying, “Hey, the terrible arms dealer who armed terrorists and is responsible for the deaths of innocents was going to get out prison one day anyway”, while saying Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and seems otherwise shady, so essentially “who cares?”
And if he immediately goes back to his old ways, I'm sure he'll be responsible for allied deaths in the Ukrainian conflict.
We can only hope that US intelligence is keeping close eyes on him and will eliminate him the moment he makes himself vulnerable.
Guys like him are really no longer needed to do what he once did (and he did it for the US and other nato countries too). It’s not like Putin can’t get his arms from Iran and North Korea without him. Not to mention he can’t fly around the world with his private cargo fleet dropping off guns like he used to. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52656 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:15 pm Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
It’s also interesting to see how many justify this by saying, “Hey, the terrible arms dealer who armed terrorists and is responsible for the deaths of innocents was going to get out prison one day anyway”, while saying Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and seems otherwise shady, so essentially “who cares?”
And if he immediately goes back to his old ways, I'm sure he'll be responsible for allied deaths in the Ukrainian conflict.
We can only hope that US intelligence is keeping close eyes on him and will eliminate him the moment he makes himself vulnerable.
Guys like him are really no longer needed to do what he once did (and he did it for the US and other nato countries too). It’s not like Putin can’t get his arms from Iran and North Korea without him. Not to mention he can’t fly around the world with his private cargo fleet dropping off guns like he used to.
While I am as sure as you are that Bout fully intends to simply retire to a farm and will no longer engage in any nefarious deeds ever again, especially given that he is now in no way behooving to Putin and the Russians in any way for securing his release, that is entirely besides the original point. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now
Last edited by DaMuleRules on Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52656 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:55 pm Post subject:
jodeke wrote:
Did Biden get played, no? IMO Biden played the cards he was dealt and then took the best deal offered.
Just to further elaborate on how Biden did get played, the Russians made the fact that they knew the US didn't have any spies to exchange for Whelan a key "no deal" point of contention. They knew that it would give the US the perfect excuse they needed to accept a lopsided deal by affording them the opportunity to say "Hey, this was the best deal we were ever going to get".
That's what you do when you are playing the big con. You convince the mark that they are actually coming out ahead so they come out of the deal patting themselves on the back for accepting something that actually screws them in the long run . . . clearly that worked, because that is exactly what is happening. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:01 pm Post subject:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
It’s also interesting to see how many justify this by saying, “Hey, the terrible arms dealer who armed terrorists and is responsible for the deaths of innocents was going to get out prison one day anyway”, while saying Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and seems otherwise shady, so essentially “who cares?”
And if he immediately goes back to his old ways, I'm sure he'll be responsible for allied deaths in the Ukrainian conflict.
We can only hope that US intelligence is keeping close eyes on him and will eliminate him the moment he makes himself vulnerable.
Guys like him are really no longer needed to do what he once did (and he did it for the US and other nato countries too). It’s not like Putin can’t get his arms from Iran and North Korea without him. Not to mention he can’t fly around the world with his private cargo fleet dropping off guns like he used to.
While I am as sure as you are that Bout fully intends to simply retire to a farm and will no longer engage in any nefarious deeds ever again, especially given that he is now in no way behooving to Putin and the Russians in any way for securing his release, that is entirely besides the original point.
Nah, the point is that the idea that about is going to bring some ingredient to current arms trade that’s going to move one gun or bomb to any particular place that won’t be done by someone else if he doesn’t is silly. He was a product of his time when a whole lot of people including us wanted to lmkv weapons all over and wanted deniability. Any government of any reasonable size and reach could have shut him down any time in his heyday, but he was a go between for all of them. The only reason the US went after drawing him out was politically motivated regarding his Russian protectors. We weren’t trying to bring him to justice, because he’s done the same work for us. We were playing intelligence games with Russia. Bout’s only evil is that he will do the same thing any other arms dealer will do, he will sell weapons to anyone he can. And because if time and place and luck and fearlessness, he was the guy who did it for everyone, and then parts of everyone wanted to pretend he was some rogue demon. He’s just freelance Lockheed. Who btw have killed more civilians than he has. Same way the Israelis are a government defending themselves but the Palestinians are terrorists for doing the same thing to each other. Context and the power of controlling the narrative. He’s a bad guy, but he’s been turned over to other bad guys by bad guys who used to use his services. Such is the world. Griner at least is just a woman who had some traces of cannabis oil in her luggage. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52656 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:54 pm Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
DuncanIdaho wrote:
DaMuleRules wrote:
It’s also interesting to see how many justify this by saying, “Hey, the terrible arms dealer who armed terrorists and is responsible for the deaths of innocents was going to get out prison one day anyway”, while saying Whelan has a dishonorable discharge and seems otherwise shady, so essentially “who cares?”
And if he immediately goes back to his old ways, I'm sure he'll be responsible for allied deaths in the Ukrainian conflict.
We can only hope that US intelligence is keeping close eyes on him and will eliminate him the moment he makes himself vulnerable.
Guys like him are really no longer needed to do what he once did (and he did it for the US and other nato countries too). It’s not like Putin can’t get his arms from Iran and North Korea without him. Not to mention he can’t fly around the world with his private cargo fleet dropping off guns like he used to.
While I am as sure as you are that Bout fully intends to simply retire to a farm and will no longer engage in any nefarious deeds ever again, especially given that he is now in no way behooving to Putin and the Russians in any way for securing his release, that is entirely besides the original point.
Nah, the point is that the idea that about is going to bring some ingredient to current arms trade that’s going to move one gun or bomb to any particular place that won’t be done by someone else if he doesn’t is silly. He was a product of his time when a whole lot of people including us wanted to lmkv weapons all over and wanted deniability. Any government of any reasonable size and reach could have shut him down any time in his heyday, but he was a go between for all of them. The only reason the US went after drawing him out was politically motivated regarding his Russian protectors. We weren’t trying to bring him to justice, because he’s done the same work for us. We were playing intelligence games with Russia. Bout’s only evil is that he will do the same thing any other arms dealer will do, he will sell weapons to anyone he can. And because if time and place and luck and fearlessness, he was the guy who did it for everyone, and then parts of everyone wanted to pretend he was some rogue demon. He’s just freelance Lockheed. Who btw have killed more civilians than he has. Same way the Israelis are a government defending themselves but the Palestinians are terrorists for doing the same thing to each other. Context and the power of controlling the narrative. He’s a bad guy, but he’s been turned over to other bad guys by bad guys who used to use his services. Such is the world. Griner at least is just a woman who had some traces of cannabis oil in her luggage.
Cute little manipulative and disingenuous tag there, and nice try at diverting from the actual point. But the Russians didn't give up such a powerful and popular political pawn like Griner for some washed up arms trader who's days are long behind him like Bout because he is useless to everyone. They did so because they knew the optics of the exchange will play into their hands in the future. As I said in another post, this is what con men do. They make you think you have outsmarted them and that you have come out the victor in what is actually a lopsided exchange that ultimately goes in their favor. They will exploit this lopsided exchange at this first opportunity they can get. Anyone who isn't aware of that is sadly mistaken.
The woman who was just admittedly carrying illegal substances into a hostile country got caught. She became a popular cause celebre at a point that Russian/US relations couldn't be more strained because of the war in the Ukraine. The Russians seized upon that golden opportunity and exploited it in expert fashion. They established that an American like Whelan will never come home until the US manages to get a Russian spy into custody, which isn't likely. So the US helped seal Whelan's fate to remain in Russian prison, say what you will about his questionable past.
So yeah, Britteny is free and that's great. It's a feel good story when we need such a thing. But it's incredibly naive to think this isn't a victory that will never come with consequences that will someone else in the future. The Russian government isn't an entity that just moves on and lets bygones be bygones. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
(Texas Paul Reveals the TRUTH about Brittney Griner’s Release from Russian Prison)
Quote:
Brittney Griner has been freed from Russian Prison after the Biden Administration successfully negotiated a prisoner swap this week. Meidas Contributor Texas Paul reacts to the right wing freakout over an American coming back home.
Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 90306 Location: Formerly Known As 24
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:22 am Post subject:
No one thinks the US outsmarted Russia. It was a tough yet simple choice: get Griner out or not. They weren’t getting Whelan with Bout, so giving him for Griner has zero bearing on Whelan. And again, Bout isn’t some important cog needed for future arms trade. He wasn’t gotten by Russia because they need him to work. He’s very well connected and has helped enrich a number of Russian people, including putin. That’s the key thing about Bout. No one needs or needed The Bout to move weapons, merely A Bout, and his role has been duplicated many times over. He’s simply a celebrity because of his early and shocking innovation.
You can knock Griner if you want, but there is zero belief among pretty much anyone that she was trying to bring marijuana to Russia. It was a simple mistake when returning to Russia from a place where the substance was legal. A technical violation of law but an extremely minor one. She was a victim not a criminal. And yes, a lawn to get a guy like Bout. And yes it sucks.
And no, nothing has changed regarding Whelan. Russia still refuses to exchange him for anything the US has. Just as was the case before the Griner swap or before there was a Griner issue. Full stop. _________________ “We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.” ― Elie Wiesel
“I am so glad that Brittney Griner is on her way home,” David Whelan, Paul’s twin brother, said in a statement Thursday. “As the family member of a Russian hostage, I can literally only imagine the joy she will have, being reunited with her loved ones, and in time for the holidays. There is no greater success than for a wrongful detainee to be free and for them to go home The Biden Administration made the right decision to bring Ms. Griner home, and to make the deal that was possible, rather than waiting for one that wasn’t going to happen.”
Of course that's the public statement they would make (and that's exactly how that reads, a carefully scripted PR statement), to say anything else would be inappropriate.
I thought the statement was made in ernest. He also showed remorse for not getting his brother in the trade.
But regardless of how they feel, it doesn't change the fact that this was a very lopsided deal in Russia's favor that sets a terrible precedent for negotiating future exchanges.
I disagree. I think bringing an American home outweighs keeping a spy who has served half of a 25 year sentence. How much time do you do for a 25 years sentence, 15 years?
Taking David Whelan's statement in context I'm in agreement the administration made the right decision. You take what you can and bring one American citizen home or continue negotiating and leave both in Russian custody. Biden wasn't played he took the best deal he could get.
When dealing with Russia setting precedents is a complicated undertaking. One country has humanitarian standards the other cares nothing for the people. Russia has the advantage and will use that advantage to the max.
Was the deal lopsided, yes? Did Biden get played, no? IMO Biden played the cards he was dealt and then took the best deal offered. Brittney was a political pawn. Paul Whelan is still in the mix.
And now the US has given Russia all the incentive they need to snatch up another US citizen, charge them with a "crime" and to use them as a pawn.
America doesn't have to give Russia incentives, Russia is Russia, that's what they do. Americans who travel to Russia know how they operate are putting themselves in peril. We can't stop
Americans from going to Russia but they should be warned they do so at they own risk.
They won't need to put Whelan "in the mix" to get what they want in the future, because the pawn worked. Especially since the US has now agreed through acceptance that Whelan will only be traded for another spy.
By saying Whelan is still in the mix I mean they are still trying to broker a deal. We don't have a spy to trade so other options will be put on the table.
Every future negotiation that may arise in the future will only get more lopsided, and that definitely makes Whlean NOT in the mix. Anytime you let the other side dictate all the terms and just accept what is given, you have definitely been played. Biden has got the US a feel good story, but it has come at a price because the US bargaining power has been reduced.
Future negotiations won't all be about getting citizens released, we're at a disadvantage in those negotiations. In this case, I'm with Biden. He didn't have a choice. He relented and IMO did the right thing.
Our bargaining power hasn't been reduced in other areas. We didn't stop sanctions and other methods used to put Russia at a disadvantage. Russia is at a disadvantage in negotiation not involving American citizens.
_________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Last edited by jodeke on Fri Dec 09, 2022 11:30 am; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52656 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:37 am Post subject:
Omar Little wrote:
No one thinks the US outsmarted Russia. It was a tough yet simple choice: get Griner out or not. They weren’t getting Whelan with Bout, so giving him for Griner has zero bearing on Whelan. And again, Bout isn’t some important cog needed for future arms trade. He wasn’t gotten by Russia because they need him to work. He’s very well connected and has helped enrich a number of Russian people, including putin. That’s the key thing about Bout. No one needs or needed The Bout to move weapons, merely A Bout, and his role has been duplicated many times over. He’s simply a celebrity because of his early and shocking innovation.
You can knock Griner if you want, but there is zero belief among pretty much anyone that she was trying to bring marijuana to Russia. It was a simple mistake when returning to Russia from a place where the substance was legal. A technical violation of law but an extremely minor one. She was a victim not a criminal. And yes, a lawn to get a guy like Bout. And yes it sucks.
And no, nothing has changed regarding Whelan. Russia still refuses to exchange him for anything the US has. Just as was the case before the Griner swap or before there was a Griner issue. Full stop.
The point is, Russia obviously wanted Bout because they gave up a huge political pawn to get him back, for whatever reason that may be. No one gives a (bleep) about Whelan, and had it been Whelan for Bout, it wouldn't have been more than a 5 second story deep into the evening news. But Griner? Everyone is over the moon about it to the point it was given a full day of coverage and almost overshadowed several other really important stories—and don't get me wrong, her return is definitely something to celebrate. But, Russia doesn't give an asset like Griner up for a washed up arms trader who is of no use to anyone. It's nonsensical to think otherwise. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
In a negotiation like this, the side that has a sense of compassion is always going to be at a big disadvantage compared to the side that has none. I still prefer to be the one with compassion. Isn't that what makes us the good guys? If we're as callous and calculating as Russia, we might as well be Russia.
Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 67703 Location: In a world where admitting to not knowing something is considered a great way to learn.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:05 am Post subject:
Bol wrote:
In a negotiation like this, the side that has a sense of compassion is always going to be at a big disadvantage compared to the side that has none. I still prefer to be the one with compassion. Isn't that what makes us the good guys? If we're as callous and calculating as Russia, we might as well be Russia.
Well said. My point exactly. _________________ Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind.
America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves.
Joined: 10 Dec 2006 Posts: 52656 Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2022 10:21 am Post subject:
Bol wrote:
In a negotiation like this, the side that has a sense of compassion is always going to be at a big disadvantage compared to the side that has none. I still prefer to be the one with compassion. Isn't that what makes us the good guys? If we're as callous and calculating as Russia, we might as well be Russia.
Sure, compassion is important and commendable. But a nation still needs be wise and careful about how it deals with its adversaries. _________________ You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
In a negotiation like this, the side that has a sense of compassion is always going to be at a big disadvantage compared to the side that has none. I still prefer to be the one with compassion. Isn't that what makes us the good guys? If we're as callous and calculating as Russia, we might as well be Russia.
lol... let's not kid ourselves... we all know why Griner was the choice over Whalen. _________________ "Now, if life is coffee, then the jobs, money & position in society are the cups. They are just tools to hold & contain life, but the quality of life doesn't change. Sometimes, by concentrating only on the cup, we fail to enjoy the coffee in it."
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