The Official Lamar Odom Thread 0f 2008-2009
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jodeke
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:39 pm    Post subject:

JUST-MING wrote;
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What does being a "fan" of his have to do with anything? I'm not a cheerleader. I would've dealt Butler for Boozer and Odom for Artest in 2005. Not because I like them any more or less, but those trades would've made the Lakers better, and we would've been closer to a championship.

I don't want to bicker about how he plays from game to game, I'll reserve judgement until the trade deadline.

I say that because 95% of your post involving Lamar are negative. You say the trades mentioned would've made the Lakers better and we would've been closer to a championship, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I hold we've built, with intelligent trades and patience, a team that will vie for the Larry O'Brien trophy this year and in years to come. Note, teams in the win now mode seldom are successful. I'm sure you're going to mention Boston but remember I said seldom, and that was a abberation. I'm anxious for December 25th. That game will give notable indication of this teams strength and will.
LO will be a Laker after the deadline and in the future. We'll win the championship and he'll be a large part of the reason. Ms Cleo

Bye the Bye. LO is playing well at this juncture and you did make mention of it.
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Last edited by jodeke on Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:20 pm    Post subject:

Sky wrote:
Odom isn't why the Lakers lost the finals, though his inability to shoot midrange fed into Boston's successful defensive strategy. The perception coming out of that also fed into Jackson's thinking that Odom is a bad fit with Pau and Bynum on the floor.

Lamar supporters can claim Odom can play well at 3 all they want but there's a reason we have yet to see Lamar at 3 with the other two bigs on the floor at the same time. Jackson doesn't trust the spacing with Lamar in that lineup and he knows that Lamar as 6th man is best for the team and Odom's open court game leading the second unit.

Therefore pining for Odom to start doesn't seem to make much sense. Is it best for the team? No. It's best for the Odom-first fan so they can say "see, see!" in this thread.


We'll see...

There are so many reasons why if Odom is going to hit that J that he is the most qualified player on the squad to be at that position that I don't even feel like listing them all. It is to close to game time right now...

In the words of
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"I'll be back..."
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dino
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:30 pm    Post subject:

great 1st half from lamar against the kings tonight...
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject:

Big Chief Triangle wrote:
Phil doesn't want Lamar starting anymore because Lamar is just a complimentary part and non-assertive.


Yet when you look at all the on/off court or unit stats, Lamar is at the top or most involved in all of them, as shown a couple pages ago.

Sky wrote:
Lamar supporters can claim Odom can play well at 3 all they want but there's a reason we have yet to see Lamar at 3 with the other two bigs on the floor at the same time. Jackson doesn't trust the spacing with Lamar in that lineup and he knows that Lamar as 6th man is best for the team and Odom's open court game leading the second unit.


Here's the thing Sky. you can use that argument when Radmanovic starts, and clearly that is Phil's thinking. He's thinking of offensive execution and he wants a shooter out there with the two big guys. But the guy who has played the most minutes at small forward, including finishing games with he and Odom both on the court together in the last two close games, is Ariza. Now, I think we can all appreciate that Trevor has worked on his shot in the off-season and its made him a more effective player. But the reality is that, as much credit as Trevor has received for his jump shot this season, Odom has shot at a 5% higher eFG on his jump shots than Trevor and has hit 50% of his three point attempts, even though he's only taken 8.

Last season Lamar had completely lost confidence in that shot, he didn't want to take it. He looks a lot more confident in that shot in the early going. He's certainly not anywhere near the shooter that Radmanovic is, but if your finishing the game with Ariza, at the 3 and Bynum on the bench, I'd rather see Odom at the 3 and Bynum in the game.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject:

Lamar is killin'
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 8:37 pm    Post subject:

Bynum4MVP wrote:
Lamar is killin'


LO!!!!! what other Pf has handles like LO?
watched him take Queen player off the dribble like a Point!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:15 pm    Post subject:

Lamar was siiiiiiiiiiiiiick tonight!!!!!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:44 pm    Post subject:

Lamar's current role is perfect. Has the open court to work with, playing PF, no pressure of starting, thrives in the uptempo game. Why would anyone want to change that?

Starting is overrated. Finishing is more important.
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:21 pm    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
Lamar's current role is perfect. Has the open court to work with, playing PF, no pressure of starting, thrives in the uptempo game. Why would anyone want to change that?

Starting is overrated. Finishing is more important.


I think the role Lamar is playing right now is a good one for him. The only thing I'd change is having him finish close games like tonight at small forward so we could get Bynum into the game. That's nothing against Ariza, who had some big plays tonight down the stretch and who has been playing great. But if it comes down to either Bynum, Ariza or Odom sitting I think Trevor should be the odd man out. I really hate the fact that Bynum is finishing all these games on the bench. While it's working at the moment offensively, I'm worried about the defensive impact lost when we run up against an elite team.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:14 am    Post subject:

J.C. - imo Ariza should close. Better man defender, and his aggression as a cutter/finisher and defender makes good things happen on both ends. If the game is close and a team is using hack a Shaq then pull him. Otherwise keep him out there to close, go with what works.

I agree that Bynum shoould close and expect that he will eventually. Has to get in top game shape and then he'll close, his conditoning isn't there yet.

Odom can close some nights, depends on the matchup. The argument for Odom closing is rebounding late. But Ariza is an effective rebounder too, and a quicker and more versatile defender.
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J.C. Smith
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am    Post subject:

Sky wrote:
J.C. - imo Ariza should close. Better man defender, and his aggression as a cutter/finisher and defender makes good things happen on both ends. If the game is close and a team is using hack a Shaq then pull him. Otherwise keep him out there to close, go with what works.


I like Trevor out there in general, but I wouldn't pick him over Odom or Bynum when it comes down to a close game.

Sky wrote:
The argument for Odom closing is rebounding late. But Ariza is an effective rebounder too, and a quicker and more versatile defender.


I disagree on the defense. The steals are big, but in man to man defense, Odom is a stronger. 82games updated their stats after todays game and Trevor has closed the gap somewhat defensively on them. Odom still holds his opponents to 2.2% lower shooting and 3.2 less PER. Rebounding though Trevor has done a good job imo. His offensive rebounds are important.

In the plus/minus though on the updated stats Odom's now up to a whopping +15.9 overall compared (by fear a tam high) to a +6 for Trevor. They are both coming off the bench and playing similar minutes (Odom's getting a few more a game). We give up 3.7 more points per 100 possessions when Odom is on the floor, as opposed to 0.5 more for Ariza. We also score 12.8 more points per 100 on offense when Odom is out there compared to 5.5 more for Ariza.

Offensively after Trevor's hot jump shooting start he's dipped down to 36.8% from 3 (still much improved) and 39.7% eFG on jumpers. Odom is at 50% (though he's taken less) from 3 and 45.5% eFG. They've taken an identical percentage of inside and outside shots between each other, but Odom shot higher in both categories. Odom's also outscoring him slightly overall.

Take those numbers with a grain of salt though as Odom's numbers all came from the power forward spot. Offensively he's stronger from that position, though in recent years he has been a better defender at small forward. I'd rather see either of them in there than Radmanovic, but I'd rather see Bynum in there than either Trevor or Lamar. When it comes time to pick one or the other, I'd prefer Odom.


Last edited by J.C. Smith on Mon Nov 24, 2008 5:09 am; edited 2 times in total
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:17 am    Post subject:

Laker's Fan wrote:
Lamar's current role is perfect. Has the open court to work with, playing PF, no pressure of starting, thrives in the uptempo game. Why would anyone want to change that?

Starting is overrated. Finishing is more important.


Good point... I can't argue that... I really do think however that Socks would benefit more from the chemistry that Gasol and Odom generate than Fish and Kobe. Rado of course has no intangibles to offer outside of his shot.

I'm also thinking that moving Rado out of any permanent set up would bring Powell into the mix. Powell is another Turiaf, with a slightly better J. He needs to see more action. He would be spectacular with that second unit, while moving LO up.

The Lakers need LO where he is right now though. You are right about who starts... It's the guy finishing, and piling up the most minutes that is of the most importance...

Anybody who thinks a healthy LO's exit won't effect this team is in denial...
The killing thing is. LO is notoriously slow out of the blocks each season. Not to say he is awful, but LO doesn't really start to get seriously rolling till after the All star break. Holy (bleep)...
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:22 am    Post subject:

Sky wrote:
J.C. - imo Ariza should close. Better man defender, and his aggression as a cutter/finisher and defender makes good things happen on both ends. If the game is close and a team is using hack a Shaq then pull him. Otherwise keep him out there to close, go with what works.

I agree that Bynum shoould close and expect that he will eventually. Has to get in top game shape and then he'll close, his conditoning isn't there yet.

Odom can close some nights, depends on the matchup. The argument for Odom closing is rebounding late. But Ariza is an effective rebounder too, and a quicker and more versatile defender.


In fact the combination of Ariza, Bryant, and Odom in combo has been absolutely fabulous.
I would bet huge on this. Somebody may be sitting down but it won't be Odom... You can't take it away from him Sky. Odom has been brilliant on both sides of the court... The teams second best swatter, and he brings other elements to the floor that Ariza just can't do as of yet... Odom is still the prime time player as long as he is healthy...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:08 am    Post subject:

Shoes - Odom is playing really well. I just continue to question if he can fit with Pau and Bynum. As for closing imo that is matchup driven. Longer term I'd prefer to close with Pau, Bynum, Ariza, once Andrew gets in prime shape.

JC - You said it yourself, those stats are at 4 only. Part of the value of a great closing defense is ability to switch and then defend who you get. Ariza is therefore valuable as a closer who can switch and still defend at three positions. Against slower 3's Odom can close, against faster 3's, or teams with a lot of scoring potential at 1-2-3 I think it's wiser to close with Ariza.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:10 am    Post subject:

Sky wrote:
Shoes - Odom is playing really well. I just continue to question if he can fit with Pau and Bynum. As for closing imo that is matchup driven. Longer term I'd prefer to close with Pau, Bynum, Ariza, once Andrew gets in prime shape.



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:30 am    Post subject:

Closing on Defensive side, I'd like to see Phil experiment the following:

Ariza
Kobe
LO
Pau
Drew

Just try it out a few times. Ariza isnt exactly that much slower than Fish and that team will have freakish length with Kobe being the shortest. Fish is great at drawing charges and moving pick calls tho. Phil has a lot of options and Bynum will have to be in the closing team at least for D sooner than later.

Closing on the Offensive side, that team will have issues as both our shooters are out. Best closing on Offense:

Fish
Sasha
Kobe
LO
Pau


(I'd also like to see Phil give our most athletic team more run: Farmar/Kobe/Ariza/LO/Pau.)
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THE_SHOES
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject:

Sure you can question it Sky, but the fact of the matter is the intelligent move to make would be to put every last greyhound or "doberman" as it is popularly known on the floor that you can.

Both sides of the Odom spectrum have to agree. Lamar Odom is playing defense this season like a madman, lets not pretend he isn't. Trevor looks more intense, but Odom is not only causing huge problems with that length, he is getting lose in that open court where he is king after those thefts, making him an absolute terror... That well known rebounding, ability and skill to take the ball to the other end of the floor in a heartbeat is a talent that makes him as menacing as anybody in the lineup.

When the Lakers are in the pits the time to love or hate Odom has to be set aside...
It's time for Derek to have a seat when the game is on the line, and the Lakers need multiple stops... The best defensive lineup in the league would indeed include Odom

1 Bryant

2 Ariza

3 Odom

4 Gasol Sheesh! (unfavorable content removed)

5 Bynum

This is the best potential for "lockdown" there is no let up anywhere with speed, agility, quickness, length, and multiple skills...
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Last edited by THE_SHOES on Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:28 pm; edited 3 times in total
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67ShelbyGT
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:31 am    Post subject:

Lamar is playing excellent ball in his 6th man role. He led the team in minutes last night. He looks more relaxed out there with the 2nd unit not having to defer to anyone. Its a shame that we are most likely will lose him after this season. We better enjoy this team more as it may be the most talented of the new dynasty team (sorry getting a little ahead of ourselves).
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:42 am    Post subject:

67ShelbyGT wrote:
Closing on Defensive side, I'd like to see Phil experiment the following:

Ariza
Kobe
LO
Pau
Drew

Just try it out a few times. Ariza isnt exactly that much slower than Fish and that team will have freakish length with Kobe being the shortest. Fish is great at drawing charges and moving pick calls tho. Phil has a lot of options and Bynum will have to be in the closing team at least for D sooner than later.

Closing on the Offensive side, that team will have issues as both our shooters are out. Best closing on Offense:

Fish
Sasha
Kobe
LO
Pau


(I'd also like to see Phil give our most athletic team more run: Farmar/Kobe/Ariza/LO/Pau.)



HHHHHHHHaaaa look atchoo doing THE_SHOES!!

You know what else I would like to see when it's time to lay the hammer down?

1 Kobe

2 Ariza

3 Odom

4 Powell

5 Bynum

I would just like to see if a team can get through that! In fact give them a couple of chances before turning the ball over!
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67ShelbyGT
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:50 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
The best defensive lineup in the league would indeed include Odom

1 Bryant

2 Ariza

3 Odom

4 Gasol (the weakest link)

5 Bynum

This is the best potential for "lockdown" there is no let up anywhere with speed, agility, quickness, length, and multiple skills...


Disagree on the Gasol slight above. You cant praise one players defense using rebounding and then call our leading rebounder the weakest link. Pau actually shows on the PnR the best of all our Bigs (including LO). Pau is not an Oakley type banger, we all know that. LO is no Artest type banger either so lets be fair. LO is not even the our best defender on 3, thats Ariza. LO is a good help team defender. I think our strong side zone is perfect for the collective freakish length we will have with that lineup. I'd try Ariza chasing the shooter.

I do agree that those 5 are our defensive team.
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67ShelbyGT
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:55 am    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:
67ShelbyGT wrote:
Closing on Defensive side, I'd like to see Phil experiment the following:

Ariza
Kobe
LO
Pau
Drew

Just try it out a few times. Ariza isnt exactly that much slower than Fish and that team will have freakish length with Kobe being the shortest. Fish is great at drawing charges and moving pick calls tho. Phil has a lot of options and Bynum will have to be in the closing team at least for D sooner than later.

Closing on the Offensive side, that team will have issues as both our shooters are out. Best closing on Offense:

Fish
Sasha
Kobe
LO
Pau


(I'd also like to see Phil give our most athletic team more run: Farmar/Kobe/Ariza/LO/Pau.)



HHHHHHHHaaaa look atchoo doing THE_SHOES!!

You know what else I would like to see when it's time to lay the hammer down?

1 Kobe

2 Ariza

3 Odom

4 Powell

5 Bynum

I would just like to see if a team can get through that! In fact give them a couple of chances before turning the ball over!


Shoes, you are the man! Its always great to get in discussion with the vets like yourself, Sky, JC, DB, LS, and many others i cant keep listing.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:14 pm    Post subject:

Oh, and I like Gasol... What I meant by that statement was more toward the toughest guys on the team. Pau is everything that this team needs, believe me when I say that!

In a back alley fight though I would want Kobe, Odom, Powell, and Bynum in that order backing me up! I just feel like the more they get hit the harder they are going to hit back... I could be wrong...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject:

THE_SHOES wrote:

1 Bryant

2 Ariza

3 Odom

4 Gasol (the weakest link)

5 Bynum

This is the best potential for "lockdown" there is no let up anywhere with speed, agility, quickness, length, and multiple skills...


The 'weakest' link was guarding the star big men during the NBA finals run...
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject:

67ShelbyGT wrote:
Closing on Defensive side, I'd like to see Phil experiment the following:

Ariza
Kobe
LO
Pau
Drew

Just try it out a few times. Ariza isnt exactly that much slower than Fish and that team will have freakish length with Kobe being the shortest. Fish is great at drawing charges and moving pick calls tho. Phil has a lot of options and Bynum will have to be in the closing team at least for D sooner than later.

Closing on the Offensive side, that team will have issues as both our shooters are out. Best closing on Offense:

Fish
Sasha
Kobe
LO
Pau


(I'd also like to see Phil give our most athletic team more run: Farmar/Kobe/Ariza/LO/Pau.)
I don't think Phil really trusts Andrew to close games that are close down the stretch yet. The team he has confidence in is the one he played in crunch time last night: Fish, Kobe, Ariza, LO and Pau. It's basically the team that got to the Finals last year, except he has Ariza for defensive purposes instead of Rad...you remember Phil lamenting that Trevor was hurt last year in the playoffs. I have a feeling you're going to be seeing a lot of this lilne-up down the stretch of close games.
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Last edited by Arizona on Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:32 pm    Post subject:

That doesn't matter because he isn't Odom.

The only reason Gasol is starting is the good graces of the Odom.

If Odom wanted to start, he would be starting and Gasol would be coming off the bench and if he didn't like it, he would be traded.

Also, Phil is playing Odom exclusively at the 4 just because if he did play the 3, he would be so good at it that Ariza and Vlad would begin to question whether or not they even belong in the NBA.
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