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TACH
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 Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | the glorification of material gain - Come on bro... that was has always been a part of hip hop... don't make me go back to the 80s to show example after example...    |
 Ah! But it wasn't glorified then. The "truck jewelry" was one thing - the Yachts, Ice, Cristal now - whole different ball game. Gold ropes don't add up to all the blingosity that permeates throughout rap today. |
sure it was glorified... It's just head can attain ice, cris, etc. now. Either way you slice it that side of hip hop was always there, the difference is it the only thing the labels/radio pushes.
Think if Tupac's Brenda came out today it was get play on BET/MTV? Think it would find it's way on regular rotation on today's radio? Most likely not.... To paraphrase one BET execute 'Little Brother and De La Soul are to smart for our audience., they get no airplay.' |
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mike_dee23
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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I think there is a major difference between NWA rapping about kids in the hood only making it by dealing drugs and that lifestyle and dudes like Puffy rapping about sitting in hot tubs drinking champagne.
I think fools like Puffy ruined the hip-hop culture as a whole.
Like someone mentioned above, the only dudes who have kept the genre relevant are Common, Mos Def and the like. Q-Tip had a great album this year.
But the NWA stuff early on? That MADE hip hop. It put it on the map. The older rappers might be the pioneers, but NWA put rap on its way toward accepted art form.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | the glorification of material gain - Come on bro... that was has always been a part of hip hop... don't make me go back to the 80s to show example after example... |
Ah! But it wasn't glorified then. The "truck jewelry" was one thing - the Yachts, Ice, Cristal now - whole different ball game. Gold ropes don't add up to all the blingosity that permeates throughout rap today. |
sure it was glorified... It's just head can attain ice, cris, etc. now. Either way you slice it that side of hip hop was always there, the difference is it the only thing the labels/radio pushes.
Think if Tupac's Brenda came out today it was get play on BET/MTV? Think it would find it's way on regular rotation on today's radio? Most likely not.... To paraphrase one BET execute 'Little Brother and De La Soul are to smart for our audience., they get no airplay.' |
But it's a side of Hip Hop that wasn't glorified to the excess that it has now until Puff got there; Jay-Z added to it as well. The labels were there - Fila, Nike, Adidas, Gazelle...but once Puff/Biggie, and Mase showed up, it went to a whole different level, that's all I'm sayin'.
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TACH
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | the glorification of material gain - Come on bro... that was has always been a part of hip hop... don't make me go back to the 80s to show example after example... |
Ah! But it wasn't glorified then. The "truck jewelry" was one thing - the Yachts, Ice, Cristal now - whole different ball game. Gold ropes don't add up to all the blingosity that permeates throughout rap today. |
sure it was glorified... It's just head can attain ice, cris, etc. now. Either way you slice it that side of hip hop was always there, the difference is it the only thing the labels/radio pushes.
Think if Tupac's Brenda came out today it was get play on BET/MTV? Think it would find it's way on regular rotation on today's radio? Most likely not.... To paraphrase one BET execute 'Little Brother and De La Soul are to smart for our audience., they get no airplay.' |
But it's a side of Hip Hop that wasn't glorified to the excess that it has now until Puff got there; Jay-Z added to it as well. The labels were there - Fila, Nike, Adidas, Gazelle...but once Puff/Biggie, and Mase showed up, it went to a whole different level, that's all I'm sayin'. |
Its glorified more now because of industry. Again, that is the labels and radio stations... they pushed that style of hip hop.... and they kept pushing it and pushing it, until we are where we are today.... and why were the labels and radio station pushing that style of hip hop... because they made money hand over fist on the sheep that keep eating that ish up.
And I really can't see how this is being put on Diddy... out side of Biggie and Mase, who were his artist, who were his 'influential artist'? Black Rob? Shine? Seriously, are we really going to give Black Rob, Shine, and Biggie credit for ushering in the jiggie/bling era of hip hop? Seriously. You act as if Nelly, Cash Money, No Limit (which Snoop was on), Juvenile, Lil Jon, etc. weren't making records. And let's not forget Dr. Dre and Fiddy who continued the cycle at the turn of the century.... and throw Timbaland contribution in there as well...
And give Diddy credit for giving us one of if not the greatest R&B singers of our generation in Mary J.
As for the whole different level thing... of course they took it to a new level, they started their own company's (label, clothes, etc.).... and again lets not pretend they were the only ones (Jermaine Dupree's So So Def, Master P's No Limited). Now everybody has a label, clothing line, etc. It just happens that Hova and Diddy did it the best... And whether it's a tricked out Audi or a Machbach, at the end of the day its still taking about material gains... only difference we are talking 100's of million instead of 100's of thousands now.
Last edited by TACH on Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TACH
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| mike_dee23 wrote: | I think there is a major difference between NWA rapping about kids in the hood only making it by dealing drugs and that lifestyle and dudes like Puffy rapping about sitting in hot tubs drinking champagne.
I think fools like Puffy ruined the hip-hop culture as a whole.
Like someone mentioned above, the only dudes who have kept the genre relevant are Common, Mos Def and the like. Q-Tip had a great album this year.
But the NWA stuff early on? That MADE hip hop. It put it on the map. The older rappers might be the pioneers, but NWA put rap on its way toward accepted art form. |
NWA did not make hip hop... not even close.... |
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mike_dee23
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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^ I meant mainstream. And that's despite (maybe because of) the controversy surrounding them.
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | the glorification of material gain - Come on bro... that was has always been a part of hip hop... don't make me go back to the 80s to show example after example... |
Ah! But it wasn't glorified then. The "truck jewelry" was one thing - the Yachts, Ice, Cristal now - whole different ball game. Gold ropes don't add up to all the blingosity that permeates throughout rap today. |
sure it was glorified... It's just head can attain ice, cris, etc. now. Either way you slice it that side of hip hop was always there, the difference is it the only thing the labels/radio pushes.
Think if Tupac's Brenda came out today it was get play on BET/MTV? Think it would find it's way on regular rotation on today's radio? Most likely not.... To paraphrase one BET execute 'Little Brother and De La Soul are to smart for our audience., they get no airplay.' |
But it's a side of Hip Hop that wasn't glorified to the excess that it has now until Puff got there; Jay-Z added to it as well. The labels were there - Fila, Nike, Adidas, Gazelle...but once Puff/Biggie, and Mase showed up, it went to a whole different level, that's all I'm sayin'. |
Its glorified more now because of industry. Again, that is the labels and radio stations... they pushed that style of hip hop.... and they kept pushing it and pushing it, until we are where we are today.... and why were the labels and radio station pushing that style of hip hop... because they made money hand over fist on the sheep that keep eating that ish up.
And I really can't see how this is being put on Diddy... out side of Biggie and Mase, who were his artist, who were his 'influential artist'? Black Rob? Shine? Seriously, are we really going to give Black Rob, Shine, and Biggie credit for ushering in the jiggie/bling era of hip hop? Seriously. You act as if Nelly, Cash Money, No Limit (which Snoop was on), Juvenile, Lil Jon, etc. weren't making records. And let's not forget Dr. Dre and Fiddy who continued the cycle at the turn of the century.... and throw Timbaland contribution in there as well...
And give Diddy credit for giving us one of if not the greatest R&B singers of our generation in Mary J.
As for the whole different level thing... of course they took it to a new level, they started their own company's (label, clothes, etc.).... and again lets not pretend they were the only ones (Jermaine Dupree's So So Def, Master P's No Limited). Now everybody has a label, clothing line, etc. It just happens that Hova and Diddy did it the best... And whether it's a tricked out Audi or a Machbach, at the end of the day its still taking about material gains... only difference we are talking 100's of million instead of 100's of thousands now. |
Dawg! ALL that in BOLD - You just made my point! Who did I say killed Hip Hop? Diddy - With his "shiny suits" and million dollar video budgets! THEN came the SOUTH - Master P, Juvenile, Cash Money - And you mentioned Snoop...THAT'S how bad it got for hip hop!...Snoop had to become a Southern rapper JUST to make records! .
Back to Puffy - After Biggie died, Diddy started rapping. Not a good thing. So, what did he do to try and compensate for his wack ass rap skills? Shiny suits. Talk about money, cars, cristal - TO THE ABSOLUTE FULL EXTENT. HE got that train rollin', dawg. Trust and believe!
When I wrote for True magazine, we covered this very issue. Puff didn't have to have a bunch of rappers in his stables, all he needed was the ENTIRE INSTRUMENTAL of an old R&B song, shiny suits, huge video budget, and it was on - THAT influenced a lot of rappers coming behind him. All the South did was pick that "style" up, and slow it down. That's the mess we hear today.
And it's 3 part blame:
1 - The artists for making that ish
2 - The fans that buy that ish
3 - The record companies that push the artists to make that ish that the fans buy.
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TACH
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | the glorification of material gain - Come on bro... that was has always been a part of hip hop... don't make me go back to the 80s to show example after example... |
Ah! But it wasn't glorified then. The "truck jewelry" was one thing - the Yachts, Ice, Cristal now - whole different ball game. Gold ropes don't add up to all the blingosity that permeates throughout rap today. |
sure it was glorified... It's just head can attain ice, cris, etc. now. Either way you slice it that side of hip hop was always there, the difference is it the only thing the labels/radio pushes.
Think if Tupac's Brenda came out today it was get play on BET/MTV? Think it would find it's way on regular rotation on today's radio? Most likely not.... To paraphrase one BET execute 'Little Brother and De La Soul are to smart for our audience., they get no airplay.' |
But it's a side of Hip Hop that wasn't glorified to the excess that it has now until Puff got there; Jay-Z added to it as well. The labels were there - Fila, Nike, Adidas, Gazelle...but once Puff/Biggie, and Mase showed up, it went to a whole different level, that's all I'm sayin'. |
Its glorified more now because of industry. Again, that is the labels and radio stations... they pushed that style of hip hop.... and they kept pushing it and pushing it, until we are where we are today.... and why were the labels and radio station pushing that style of hip hop... because they made money hand over fist on the sheep that keep eating that ish up.
And I really can't see how this is being put on Diddy... out side of Biggie and Mase, who were his artist, who were his 'influential artist'? Black Rob? Shine? Seriously, are we really going to give Black Rob, Shine, and Biggie credit for ushering in the jiggie/bling era of hip hop? Seriously. You act as if Nelly, Cash Money, No Limit (which Snoop was on), Juvenile, Lil Jon, etc. weren't making records. And let's not forget Dr. Dre and Fiddy who continued the cycle at the turn of the century.... and throw Timbaland contribution in there as well...
And give Diddy credit for giving us one of if not the greatest R&B singers of our generation in Mary J.
As for the whole different level thing... of course they took it to a new level, they started their own company's (label, clothes, etc.).... and again lets not pretend they were the only ones (Jermaine Dupree's So So Def, Master P's No Limited). Now everybody has a label, clothing line, etc. It just happens that Hova and Diddy did it the best... And whether it's a tricked out Audi or a Machbach, at the end of the day its still taking about material gains... only difference we are talking 100's of million instead of 100's of thousands now. |
Dawg! ALL that in BOLD - You just made my point! Who did I say killed Hip Hop? Diddy - With his "shiny suits" and million dollar video budgets! THEN came the SOUTH - Master P, Juvenile, Cash Money - And you mentioned Snoop...THAT'S how bad it got for hip hop!...Snoop had to become a Southern rapper JUST to make records! .
Back to Puffy - After Biggie died, Diddy started rapping. Not a good thing. So, what did he do to try and compensate for his wack ass rap skills? Shiny suits. Talk about money, cars, cristal - TO THE ABSOLUTE FULL EXTENT. HE got that train rollin', dawg. Trust and believe!
When I wrote for True magazine, we covered this very issue. Puff didn't have to have a bunch of rappers in his stables, all he needed was the ENTIRE INSTRUMENTAL of an old R&B song, shiny suits, huge video budget, and it was on - THAT influenced a lot of rappers coming behind him. All the South did was pick that "style" up, and slow it down. That's the mess we hear today.
And it's 3 part blame:
1 - The artists for making that ish
2 - The fans that buy that ish
3 - The record companies that push the artists to make that ish that the fans buy. |
You have your timeline wrong... No Limit came before Diddy started rappin... And again, outside of Diddy and Mase, who else on the label did that? Shine? Black Rob?
As for blame, you can't put the artist first, because there are plenty of artist that don't fit the current format radio, MTV/BET, and/or what the the labels are pushing. I would reverse the order of blame, putting most of the blame on the industry (labels, radio, MTV)...
And trying to pin why the current state of 'hip hop' on one person or one act, is ludicrous. Especially when all of this occurred over a decade ago.
Seriously, if you are going too much credit Diddy with all that, then he must be one of the most influential people in music... I would actually put Jay Z with Reasonable Doubt ahead of Diddy as somebody being influential/game changer in hip hop. |
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Free_Kobe
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Sooooo....
Whats the best gansta rap song again??? 
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | TACH wrote: | | the glorification of material gain - Come on bro... that was has always been a part of hip hop... don't make me go back to the 80s to show example after example... |
Ah! But it wasn't glorified then. The "truck jewelry" was one thing - the Yachts, Ice, Cristal now - whole different ball game. Gold ropes don't add up to all the blingosity that permeates throughout rap today. |
sure it was glorified... It's just head can attain ice, cris, etc. now. Either way you slice it that side of hip hop was always there, the difference is it the only thing the labels/radio pushes.
Think if Tupac's Brenda came out today it was get play on BET/MTV? Think it would find it's way on regular rotation on today's radio? Most likely not.... To paraphrase one BET execute 'Little Brother and De La Soul are to smart for our audience., they get no airplay.' |
But it's a side of Hip Hop that wasn't glorified to the excess that it has now until Puff got there; Jay-Z added to it as well. The labels were there - Fila, Nike, Adidas, Gazelle...but once Puff/Biggie, and Mase showed up, it went to a whole different level, that's all I'm sayin'. |
Its glorified more now because of industry. Again, that is the labels and radio stations... they pushed that style of hip hop.... and they kept pushing it and pushing it, until we are where we are today.... and why were the labels and radio station pushing that style of hip hop... because they made money hand over fist on the sheep that keep eating that ish up.
And I really can't see how this is being put on Diddy... out side of Biggie and Mase, who were his artist, who were his 'influential artist'? Black Rob? Shine? Seriously, are we really going to give Black Rob, Shine, and Biggie credit for ushering in the jiggie/bling era of hip hop? Seriously. You act as if Nelly, Cash Money, No Limit (which Snoop was on), Juvenile, Lil Jon, etc. weren't making records. And let's not forget Dr. Dre and Fiddy who continued the cycle at the turn of the century.... and throw Timbaland contribution in there as well...
And give Diddy credit for giving us one of if not the greatest R&B singers of our generation in Mary J.
As for the whole different level thing... of course they took it to a new level, they started their own company's (label, clothes, etc.).... and again lets not pretend they were the only ones (Jermaine Dupree's So So Def, Master P's No Limited). Now everybody has a label, clothing line, etc. It just happens that Hova and Diddy did it the best... And whether it's a tricked out Audi or a Machbach, at the end of the day its still taking about material gains... only difference we are talking 100's of million instead of 100's of thousands now. |
Dawg! ALL that in BOLD - You just made my point! Who did I say killed Hip Hop? Diddy - With his "shiny suits" and million dollar video budgets! THEN came the SOUTH - Master P, Juvenile, Cash Money - And you mentioned Snoop...THAT'S how bad it got for hip hop!...Snoop had to become a Southern rapper JUST to make records! .
Back to Puffy - After Biggie died, Diddy started rapping. Not a good thing. So, what did he do to try and compensate for his wack ass rap skills? Shiny suits. Talk about money, cars, cristal - TO THE ABSOLUTE FULL EXTENT. HE got that train rollin', dawg. Trust and believe!
When I wrote for True magazine, we covered this very issue. Puff didn't have to have a bunch of rappers in his stables, all he needed was the ENTIRE INSTRUMENTAL of an old R&B song, shiny suits, huge video budget, and it was on - THAT influenced a lot of rappers coming behind him. All the South did was pick that "style" up, and slow it down. That's the mess we hear today.
And it's 3 part blame:
1 - The artists for making that ish
2 - The fans that buy that ish
3 - The record companies that push the artists to make that ish that the fans buy. |
You have your timeline wrong... No Limit came before Diddy started rappin... And again, outside of Diddy and Mase, who else on the label did that? Shine? Black Rob?
As for blame, you can't put the artist first, because there are plenty of artist that don't fit the current format radio, MTV/BET, and/or what the the labels are pushing. I would reverse the order of blame, putting most of the blame on the industry (labels, radio, MTV)...
And trying to pin why the current state of 'hip hop' on one person or one act, is ludicrous. Especially when all of this occurred over a decade ago.
Seriously, if you are going too much credit Diddy with all that, then he must be one of the most influential people in music... I would actually put Jay Z with Reasonable Doubt ahead of Diddy as somebody being influential/game changer in hip hop. |
Naw, dawg - No Limit may have been around in the early to mid 90s but they didn't start making a true impact on the scene until 97 or so. By then, Biggie was gone and Puffy was starting his steps into rapdom with Cant Nobody Hold Me Down.
And you keep focusing on "how many" of his acts did that, when that's not the point. The point is his BIGGEST acts - Himself and Mase - did that. It doesn't take a bunch of artists to create a trend.
And my "blame" isn't in any particular order, that's just the way I listed it.
And it's not ludicrous to pen it on 2 monumental moments because it had to start somewhere, and the concensus - true hip hop headz that I know that have been in the rap game since the late 80s - say Puffy was the genesis. Again, we researched this out and those were the 2 biggest factions that led to Hip Hop being wack right about now. And a decade ago WAS when Puff and the South started to blowup, so the timeline fits, like it or not.
And you may be making a joke about it, but Diddy - for better or worse - IS one of the most influential people in music once you break down his influence in the game. He took party rap where Will Smith couldn't - Through the hood and straight into suburbia. He helped make it go "Pop" with a little street edge to it.
As for Jigga, he followed the blueprint that Diddy laid out. Go peep his steps and you will see he followed Puff's entire map almost to a T to get where he's at. So Jigga owes Puff for that. Can't blame him, for all his faults (rapping, shiny suits, Cristal), Puff was a visionary, and I can't do nothin' BUT respect his game.
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| Quote: | Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
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TACH
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:07 am Post subject: |
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^^Actually Diddy and Jigga jacked from that from Russell... he was the first one with a label, he was the first with a clothing line, the first the hang with model chicks and go to fashion shows, the first with a TV Show.
Anywho, we can go back and forth on this all day, so we'll have to agree to disagree.... I believe the the labels and the media outlets hold most of the blame. They dictate who gets played/air time. They are the ones the dictate who gets the marketing money and the backing of the labels. They get to chose what videos are played on MTV/BET. They are the ones responsible for what you hear on the radio and what videos you see on TV. |
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | ^^Actually Diddy and Jigga jacked from that from Russell... he was the first one with a label, he was the first with a clothing line, the first the hang with model chicks and go to fashion shows, the first with a TV Show.
Anywho, we can go back and forth on this all day, so we'll have to agree to disagree.... I believe the the labels and the media outlets hold most of the blame. They dictate who gets played/air time. They are the ones the dictate who gets the marketing money and the backing of the labels. They get to chose what videos are played on MTV/BET. They are the ones responsible for what you hear on the radio and what videos you see on TV. |
But Jigga followed Diddy's version of what Russell did. Russell was more of a behind-the-scenes type while Puff made sure he was front and center, even ahead of his own artists.
And I still believe it's a 3-part blame: Artists, Labels, Fans.
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| Quote: | Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
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cinimod
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | 24 wrote: | None of it. Gangster rap destroyed hip-hop...
<OK, I'll leave the thread now  > |
Nope. 2 reasons Hip Hop is dead: Puffy & the South. |
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non-player zealot
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doughboy90650
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| Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Will always be .... F**k Tha Police ...... anytime you get the FBI on ya ass, you musta did something wrong ....
And love most anything from Dub C ....... |
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slippy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hip hop started to "decline" after the Chronic. That's when corporations saw that a "gangsta image" (as well as a homogenized sound) could sell a crazy amount of records, and so all the progressive, afrocentric hip hop fell out of the mainstream. Having said that, lyricism and regional representation were still valued greatly in the 90s.
I give Puffy credit in that, in getting East Coast hip hop artists to embrace a 70s soul sound to match West Coast G-Funk, that enabled Biggie to break through the mainstream. Although people who loved on Primo and Pete Rock hated that sound, it in some respects preserved the integrity of hardcore. You could go ringtone, or you could be all grimy. He with Dre helped create a business model coupling gritty lyrics with radio-friendly sounds. By the late 90s, the corporate gangsta had completely arrived. |
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dna.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you TACH
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Free_Kobe
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LuxuryBrown
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I give Puffy credit in that, in getting East Coast hip hop artists to embrace a 70s soul sound to match West Coast G-Funk, that enabled Biggie to break through the mainstream |
I don't see how Puff did that nor did I see a 70s sound influence in East Coast Hip Hop. What I did see was the East get more "gangsta" with their sound due to the success of West Coast G-Rap. Biggie was basically an East Coast gangsta rapper.
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| Quote: | Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
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TACH
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Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 28461
Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | | I give Puffy credit in that, in getting East Coast hip hop artists to embrace a 70s soul sound to match West Coast G-Funk, that enabled Biggie to break through the mainstream |
I don't see how Puff did that nor did I see a 70s sound influence in East Coast Hip Hop. What I did see was the East get more "gangsta" with their sound due to the success of West Coast G-Rap. Biggie was basically an East Coast gangsta rapper. |
LB, come on... you are insulting Kool G Rap, Slick Rick, etc... with a statement like... Are you realy going to say cats from the East Coast didn't sample artsist from the 70's until the West did it? Come on, let's be serious bro. As for Biggie, he followed in the steps of Kool G Rap and Big L and others.
James Brown was heavily sampled by East Coast Artist in the mid to late 80s... Look at EPMD, The Beastie Boys, De La Soul, Jungle Brothers, Gangstar, Schoolly D, peep DJ Premier's production work (all were hittin in the 80s). And Kool G Rap is recognized by many as the 'first' gangsta rapper along with Ice-T:
| Quote: | | Los Angeles' Ice T is often credited as the first gangsta rapper due to his influential "Sixn' da Mornin'" and other aggressive, gritty recordings (like Rhyme Pays, 1987), though Philadelphia's Schoolly D ( The Adventures of Schoolly D , 1987), Kool G Rap ("It's a Demo", "I'm Fly") and New York's Slick Rick ( The Great Adventures of Slick Rick, 1989) are both also contenders. The genre is usually credited as being an originally West Coast phenomenon, due to the influence of Ice-T and N.W.A., though Schoolly D and Slick Rick are East Coast rappers. Other major influences include the pioneering hardcore work of politically-aware performers like Public Enemy ( It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, 1988), Ice Cube ( AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted, 1990 which was produced by east coasters The Bomb Squad) and Boogie Down Productions ( Criminal Minded, 1987), and the similarly "poetic gangsta" prose and poetry of Ice-T's namesake, Iceberg Slim, and the proto-gangsta rap of LL Cool J ( Mama Said Knock You Out , 1990) and Too $hort ( Life Is... Too Short , 1998). Kool G Rap's epic tales helped inspire the related Mafioso rap phenomenon, which later achieved some mainstream success and great critical acclaim in 1995 (see 1995 in music) with albums like Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx and AZ's Do or Die and Mobb Deep's The Infamous . |
I won't argue NWAs influence in the genre... but they and the West were not the sole 'pioneers' in this genre... Dre readily credits A Tribe Called Quest and Public Enemy (The Bomb Squad) for influencing and shaping the sound of NWA and the Chronic and other work he has produced...
Last edited by TACH on Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TACH
Retired Number
Joined: 03 Nov 2005
Posts: 28461
Location: Chillin on the Delaware.. from the Jersey Side
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| slippy wrote: | Hip hop started to "decline" after the Chronic. That's when corporations saw that a "gangsta image" (as well as a homogenized sound) could sell a crazy amount of records, and so all the progressive, afrocentric hip hop fell out of the mainstream. Having said that, lyricism and regional representation were still valued greatly in the 90s.
... Although people who loved on Primo and Pete Rock hated that sound, it in some respects preserved the integrity of hardcore. You could go ringtone, or you could be all grimy. He with Dre helped create a business model coupling gritty lyrics with radio-friendly sounds. By the late 90s, the corporate gangsta had completely arrived. |
I agree with those statements... good post...
L and by the mid to late 90s, even Hammer was trying to be Gangsta....
Funny nobody has mentioned Hammer yet... if anything... he probably is one of the biggest influence on what you hear today.... he was the originator of shinny suits, materialism, 'hip pop', huge videos with dancers, etc. I think Diddy was going by Sean 'Puff' Combs and was just hired by Uptown when Hammer was popular (  ). After Diddy went to Uptown Records, well the rest is history... |
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LuxuryBrown
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
Posts: 17429
Location: Mackadocious, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | LuxuryBrown wrote: | | Quote: | | I give Puffy credit in that, in getting East Coast hip hop artists to embrace a 70s soul sound to match West Coast G-Funk, that enabled Biggie to break through the mainstream |
I don't see how Puff did that nor did I see a 70s sound influence in East Coast Hip Hop. What I did see was the East get more "gangsta" with their sound due to the success of West Coast G-Rap. Biggie was basically an East Coast gangsta rapper. |
LB, come on... you are insulting Kool G Rap, Slick Rick, etc... with a statement like... Are you realy going to say cats from the East Coast didn't sample artsist from the 70's until the West did it? Come on, let's be serious bro. As for Biggie, he followed in the steps of Kool G Rap and Big L and others.
James Brown was heavily sampled by East Coast Artist in the mid to late 80s... Look at EPMD, The Beastie Boys, De La Soul, Jungle Brothers, Gangstar, Schoolly D, peep DJ Premier's production work (all were hittin in the 80s). And Kool G Rap is recognized by many as the 'first' gangsta rapper along with Ice-T:
| Quote: | | Los Angeles' Ice T is often credited as the first gangsta rapper due to his influential "Sixn' da Mornin'" and other aggressive, gritty recordings (like Rhyme Pays, 1987), though Philadelphia's Schoolly D ( The Adventures of Schoolly D , 1987), Kool G Rap ("It's a Demo", "I'm Fly") and New York's Slick Rick ( The Great Adventures of Slick Rick, 1989) are both also contenders. The genre is usually credited as being an originally West Coast phenomenon, due to the influence of Ice-T and N.W.A., though Schoolly D and Slick Rick are East Coast rappers. Other major influences include the pioneering hardcore work of politically-aware performers like Public Enemy ( It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, 1988), Ice Cube ( AmeriKKKa's Most Wanted, 1990 which was produced by east coasters The Bomb Squad) and Boogie Down Productions ( Criminal Minded, 1987), and the similarly "poetic gangsta" prose and poetry of Ice-T's namesake, Iceberg Slim, and the proto-gangsta rap of LL Cool J ( Mama Said Knock You Out , 1990) and Too $hort ( Life Is... Too Short , 1998). Kool G Rap's epic tales helped inspire the related Mafioso rap phenomenon, which later achieved some mainstream success and great critical acclaim in 1995 (see 1995 in music) with albums like Raekwon's Only Built 4 Cuban Linx and AZ's Do or Die and Mobb Deep's The Infamous . |
I won't argue NWAs influence in the genre... but they and the West were not the sole 'pioneers' in this genre... Dre readily credits A Tribe Called Quest and Public Enemy (The Bomb Squad) for influencing and shaping the sound of NWA and the Chronic and other work he has produced... |
No, I'm not saying the East didn't ever sample from the 70s until the West did, I'm saying I didn't see 70s soul music introduced into Hip Hop by Puff as to have influenced East Coast rap. Everyone was sampling JB and 70s and 80s as well, so I don't see the 70s being the major representation of sampling back then.
And I wouldn't credit Schooly D or any of those East Coasters mentioned as the official G-Rappers. They were more "Street" than Gangsta. They rapped more about what was going on in the streets rather than straight jackin' and gattin' and taking aim at 5-0 as the sole basis of their rap existence. Basically, the West turned the "Street" of those dudes into full fledge G-Rap. So when Dre says he credits them, he means musically and not content-wise.
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| Quote: | Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
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LuxuryBrown
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Joined: 09 Jun 2006
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Location: Mackadocious, Ca.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| TACH wrote: | | slippy wrote: | Hip hop started to "decline" after the Chronic. That's when corporations saw that a "gangsta image" (as well as a homogenized sound) could sell a crazy amount of records, and so all the progressive, afrocentric hip hop fell out of the mainstream. Having said that, lyricism and regional representation were still valued greatly in the 90s.
... Although people who loved on Primo and Pete Rock hated that sound, it in some respects preserved the integrity of hardcore. You could go ringtone, or you could be all grimy. He with Dre helped create a business model coupling gritty lyrics with radio-friendly sounds. By the late 90s, the corporate gangsta had completely arrived. |
I agree with those statements... good post...
L and by the mid to late 90s, even Hammer was trying to be Gangsta....
Funny nobody has mentioned Hammer yet... if anything... he probably is one of the biggest influence on what you hear today.... he was the originator of shinny suits, materialism, 'hip pop', huge videos with dancers, etc. I think Diddy was going by Sean 'Puff' Combs and was just hired by Uptown when Hammer was popular ( ). After Diddy went to Uptown Records, well the rest is history... |
Hammer's single "Pump it Up" was the shizznit. "Let's Get it Started" was at least decent. After that, he went downhill.
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| Quote: | Smooth, but I move like an army / Bulletproof down in case brothas try to bomb me / Puttin' brothas to rest like Elliot Ness / Cuz I don't like stress
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Omar Little
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Location: Formerly Known As 24
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
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Boy did I completely sidetrack this thread
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slippy
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Joined: 02 Nov 2008
Posts: 5718
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| Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't see how Puff did that nor did I see a 70s sound influence in East Coast Hip Hop. |
Puff (i.e. "Ghetto Fabulous" helped popularize the use of accessible, R&B/soul-oriented backing tracks into East Coast hip hop, thus creating a middle-brow blend for people who couldn't stomach, say, the minimal sounds of Primo or the full-on griminess of Wu Tang. Although it eventually morphed into "bling", the original concept was to bring back some of the glamour and glitz of the 70s era, and to reinvent the ethics of gangsta into almost cinematic icons, which of course Jay-Z turned into his career. This worked great because East Coast crime narratives often depicted the hood as inherently a competitive world where there is no real "us" and "them", there is only "me or you." This was inherently different than West Coast gangster. West Coast mostly emphasized the collective and community, and the despair of "us" against the police, rival gangs, etc. Even a Pac, who sustained an almost all-encompassing narrative of his struggle against world, often spoke in reverence and deference to his friends and enemies, as all being part of his city and people that he loved. The difference is important because, where East Coast hip hop stars all eventually broke from their origins in order to assert their stardom, West Coast hip hop stars take upon a mission to keep it "real", which translates to adapting music motifs, lyrical subjects, and so on that reinforce the original image of "us", however far you go.
| Quote: | | Dre readily credits A Tribe Called Quest and Public Enemy (The Bomb Squad) for influencing and shaping the sound of NWA and the Chronic and other work he has produced... |
Actually, at the time, I didn't like the Chronic at all because Dre moved away from the aggressive Bomb Squad-ish musique concrete of his NWA days.
| Quote: | | Funny nobody has mentioned Hammer yet... if anything... he probably is one of the biggest influence on what you hear today.... he was the originator of shinny suits, materialism, 'hip pop', huge videos with dancers, etc. |
You could say that he was the prototype "snap music" artist. It wasn't just that he introduces dance steps, parachute pants, call-and-response devices and big-time choruses into the mainstream image of hip hop. It's that, in doing that, he essentially completed the "frat boy/jock idiom" into hip-hop (as opposed to the Beastie Boys's first record, who were merely rapping as frat boys), thereby showing that hip-hop could cross over with just about every surburban white dude if given half a chance, and that it could work in an "arena/stadium rock" context. |
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