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Laker Lurker
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | | Sky wrote: | It is clear that Jim was behind Bynum it is not clear that Mitch was not.
Yes it is.
"Buss, 73, credited his son Jim, the team’s vice president of player personnel, with being the greatest advocate for drafting Bynum when others in the front office were in favor of Channing Frye. "
Who comprises the front office? Mitch, Jimmy and Lester. Jimmy was on board. Lester was on board. That leaves...
Mitch was not behind Bynum initially. He wanted Frye. That is proven in that quote by process of elimination. Siler didn't name Kupchak specifically as a means to slightly protect a source he needs for information. But anyone paying attention knows exactly who he meant.
My beef with Kupchak isn't so much who he picked as WHAT he picked. He ignores needs and is extremely biased toward shooting. His acquisition history proves it. That more than anything else is what infuriates me about Kupchak and specifcially why I think he is a poor GM. A good GM doesn't ignore needs and load up on one-way players for the vast majority of the roster.
West and Dumars have blown picks but they don't ignore needs. Kupchak did. For years. |
As far as ignoring needs it is my understanding the the policy of West was to select the best available player as opposed to need. It would appear that Mitch has basically adopted that same approach.
As far as the Bynum pick the article you use to support your view is credible of course but the reference to "all others in the FO were in favor of Channing Frye" was actually not a quote from Buss but a conclusion made by Ross Siler.
LINK
An excerpt from that article in context to the conversation:
| Quote: | Buss, 73, credited his son Jim, the team’s vice president of player personnel, with being the greatest advocate for drafting Bynum when others in the front office were in favor of Channing Frye.
``I think you can lay it at his doorstep the fact that we gambled and took Bynum,’’ Buss said. ``He was the one out of all of us that said, `Hey, let’s not fool around. We’ve got to go with this kid.’’' |
I would agree that Buss is actually quoted as saying it was Jim who was the impetus behind the signing, but the reference toward "others in the FO" in favor of someone else was not a quote from Jerry.
It also worth noting that you say yourself that by process of elimiation "others" would have to be Mitch.
You do this by saying:
| Quote: | | Who comprises the front office? Mitch, Jimmy and Lester. Jimmy was on board. Lester was on board. That leaves... |
I would submit to you that besides the fact that it was not a quote from Jerry the term "others" would conclude more than one person.
You have argued that Mitch was the only one that could have not agreed on Drew since Jimmy and Lester were aboard and that leaves only Mitch...
So why the "others" reference when Mitch would be the only person left. I think it is just a plausible that this is simply a generalization or an assumption made by Siler possibly.
Could it be that Phil was loosely included in the FO by Siler and would address why Siler phrased the sentence in his article. Maybe so or maybe Magic can be in the mix as well. Whose to say it wasn't Magic and Phil who may have not been aboard thus the reference to "others". It is a little vague really to make a conclusion directly in regards to Mitch when it is after all a conclusion of the writer and we really can't be sure what is defined as the "FO" especially when we find the tense of the reference to "others" to be in conflict with concluding Mitch had to be the "lone" outsider.
This is clearly nitpicking to a large extent but no more than considering other articles or actions by Mitch that would lead one to an opposite conclusion.
We can agree to give credit to Jim for his focus on Drew and sticking with his resolution and at the same time take away a large part of the credit from Mitch but it is debatable how much Mitch was either for or against and if Mitch's preferences were revised when that might have taken place.
One thing can be said is that Jimmy Buss is actually a much better judge of personnel than many on this board give him credit.  |
"One thing can be said is that Jimmy Buss is actually a much better judge of personnel than many on this board give him credit".
Lets leave it at that. Kupchak will have plenty of opportunity to show how good (ior bad) he is by figuring out some way of keeping Kwame and getting rid of Sasha, Cook, and Mihm to do so. The past is gone, lets see what Kupchak can do in the future |
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Dennis_D
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | You need to read the Siler piece again Dennis.
"Buss, 73, credited his son Jim, the team’s vice president of player personnel, with being the greatest advocate for drafting Bynum when others in the front office were in favor of Channing Frye. "
Hello Mitch. |
Sorry, this makes no sense to me. Mitch told the season ticket holders something that afterwards was decoded to mean he wanted Bynum. Mitch worked an elaborate smokescreen with the Portland GM to make it look like both of thought Gerald Green was the best HS player in the draft. There were also rumors put out about Bynum having a bum knee. You are saying Mitch did all this planning on drafting Frye?
Even if Mitch did have Frye higher on his draft board than Bynum, who cares? Frye was picked 8th.
| Sky wrote: | | Heisler has Mitch involved in selling Bynum, but that happened AFTER Kupchak was converted to Bynum by Jimmy and Lester. |
What is your source for this?
| Sky wrote: | | There's a joint decision making process LATE. Kupchak wanted Frye and was converted to Bynum and then joined Jimmy in selling Bynum to Doc. That's how it went down. And therefore Kupcahk doesn't deserve the credit for Bynum. Jimmy does. Lester does. Mitch? Not really. |
I find this weak. If Mitch was in support of the decision to draft Bynum while the choice was up in the air, he deserves credit for drafting him. From Heisler's reporting, Mitch was decisive in getting Bynum drafted.
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Dennis_D
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | It is clear that Jim was behind Bynum it is not clear that Mitch was not.
Yes it is.
"Buss, 73, credited his son Jim, the team’s vice president of player personnel, with being the greatest advocate for drafting Bynum when others in the front office were in favor of Channing Frye. "
Who comprises the front office? Mitch, Jimmy and Lester. Jimmy was on board. Lester was on board. That leaves... |
Magic? Divac? I think Rudy T? Other scouts? As Roland Lazenby said about the Lakers' FO:
| Quote: | | [T]he Lakers have always had a complicated "court." Magic Johnson is a voice that's around that cares a lot and is hard to ignore. Jerry West always had his say when he was there. There are a lot of voices even in simpler times. |
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Sky
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Rule - I realize Siler is saying others wanted Frye, not Buss. Doesn't make it any less true. Others in the front office can be other scouts. Key is to define front office as SILER would. Would a beat reporter make a distinction between front office and management? I would think so. Would Lazenby? Not necessarily, he's an author not a beat reporter.
Bottom line, Jimmy deserves far more credit for his personnel judgment than he receives. You are right. As for how much credit Kupchak deserves for Bynum in my book very little. He had to be sold on Bynum and then helped sell him to Dr. Buss. That's a supportive role not the lead.
Credit/Blame
Kobe - West
Odom - The Busses forcing the Shaq deal
Fisher - West drafted him, Fisher forced his own path back here
Kwame - Jackson pushed for him, Kupchak was on board, Buss wasn't going to pay Butler, all contributed but Phil in the lead.
Walton - Kupchak
Bynum - Jimmy and Lester 95%, Kupchak 5%
Turiaf - Jimmy with Kupchak supporting him
Crittenton - Kupchak in the lead with consensus support from Lester and the scouts
Farmar - Kupchak with on board support from Lester
Evans - Kupchak
Radmanovic - Kobe with on board support from Jackson and Kupchak
Sasha - Kupchak
Mihm - Kupchak
Cook - Kupchak
Karl - Jimmy with on board support from Kupchak
Dennis - Sources for timing? Heisler on Lester being out front. Saw him three times per the true hoop e-mail. Emplay on Kupchak wanting Frye or May. Siler on Kupchak wanting Frye. A journalist friend of mine in New York with connections in the league office saying Kupchak wanted Frye. Vecsey saying Kupchak wanted May. NONE of them saying Kupchak wanted Bynum. ALL of them saying Jimmy and Lester turned Kupchak around who then helped sell Bynum to Buss.
Even if Mitch had Frye higher on his board who cares? Anyone seeking to assign credit should care. Kupchak had to be turned around first which means he gets far less credit for Bynum. You want to give him credit for turning around Buss? Who does Dr. Buss give the credit to on that point specifically? Jimmy. THE one out of all of us.
The Town Hall meeting was late in the process. Kupchak was already turned around by then. Mitch did the smoke screen, but again, that was late in the process. Initial evaluations: Jimmy: Bynum. Lester: Bynum. Kupchak: Frye. Therefore the credit follows that. Jimmy: high. Lester: high (another voice in this that isn't getting due credit). Kupchak: low.
Form Heisler's reporting Kupchak was a key part of the final decision. According to Dr. Buss, Jimmy was the key in that. According to Siler and a host of others Kupchak was not initially sold on Bynum. Which is a vital point in this discussion. You cling to Heisler. I'll point to Siler, emplay, my contact in New York and Dr. Jerry Buss. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: |
Credit/Blame
Kobe - West
Odom - The Busses forcing the Shaq deal
Fisher - West drafted him, Fisher forced his own path back here
Kwame - Jackson pushed for him, Kupchak was on board, Buss wasn't going to pay Butler, all contributed but Phil in the lead.
Walton - Kupchak
Bynum - Jimmy and Lester 95%, Kupchak 5%
Turiaf - Jimmy with Kupchak supporting him
Crittenton - Kupchak in the lead with consensus support from Lester and the scouts
Farmar - Kupchak with on board support from Lester
Evans - Kupchak
Radmanovic - Kobe with on board support from Jackson and Kupchak
Sasha - Kupchak
Mihm - Kupchak
Cook - Kupchak
Karl - Jimmy with on board support from Kupchak
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Good breakdown, we can agree to disagree on the percentages breakdown on the Bynum pick as to the amount of credit applied to either person since there is a degree of subjective analysis regarding that transaction, imho. 
I might add the slight nuances in regards to picks that are characterized as soley Mitch selections and others that presumably included feedback from others are I suppose debatable (cetainly not by me however).
I can say for sure that with limited insight into the implications of some of the specific selections I am not in a position to debate these nuances one way or the other.
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Sky - couldn't every team in the league breakdown who gets credit for what? I mean Buford in SA is credited with a model franchise, but his draft record, FA signings and trades are no better than Kupchak over the same time, and he gets alot of input from many sources including Pop. They traded Barbosa for a pick and took Beno over Varajeo, too. Their last pick of note was TP 7 years ago. And what about Dumars track record - drafting Darko and losing Big Ben for nothing? Phoenix had some good picks, but some terrible ones, and basically lost or sold players and picks they didn't want to pay for.
It is easy when you are close to the Lakers to pick apart their moves and parcel out credit and blame, but at the end of this all, I still ask the question:
Who has done a clearly better job than the Lakers (and Kupchak) since Mitch became the GM? With all of Mitch's flaws, 5 or 10 superior GMs must be obvious, right? |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Sky - couldn't every team in the league breakdown who gets credit for what? I mean Buford in SA is credited with a model franchise, but his draft record, FA signings and trades are no better than Kupchak over the same time, and he gets alot of input from many sources including Pop. They traded Barbosa for a pick and took Beno over Varajeo, too. Their last pick of note was TP 7 years ago. And what about Dumars track record - drafting Darko and losing Big Ben for nothing? Phoenix had some good picks, but some terrible ones, and basically lost or sold players and picks they didn't want to pay for.
It is easy when you are close to the Lakers to pick apart their moves and parcel out credit and blame, but at the end of this all, I still ask the question:
Who has done a clearly better job than the Lakers (and Kupchak) since Mitch became the GM? With all of Mitch's flaws, 5 or 10 superior GMs must be obvious, right? |
Get's it...
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Laker Lurker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Sky - couldn't every team in the league breakdown who gets credit for what? I mean Buford in SA is credited with a model franchise, but his draft record, FA signings and trades are no better than Kupchak over the same time, and he gets alot of input from many sources including Pop. They traded Barbosa for a pick and took Beno over Varajeo, too. Their last pick of note was TP 7 years ago. And what about Dumars track record - drafting Darko and losing Big Ben for nothing? Phoenix had some good picks, but some terrible ones, and basically lost or sold players and picks they didn't want to pay for.
It is easy when you are close to the Lakers to pick apart their moves and parcel out credit and blame, but at the end of this all, I still ask the question:
Who has done a clearly better job than the Lakers (and Kupchak) since Mitch became the GM? With all of Mitch's flaws, 5 or 10 superior GMs must be obvious, right? |
There was a ranking of GMs in an article posted in LG, Kupchak was in the bottom quarter. |
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JUST-MING
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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It wasn't until Ronnie Lester was made assistant general manager (and scout) that we started drafting well.
Ronnie should recieve more credit than Jimmy. |
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker Lurker wrote: | | JerryMagicKobe wrote: | Sky - couldn't every team in the league breakdown who gets credit for what? I mean Buford in SA is credited with a model franchise, but his draft record, FA signings and trades are no better than Kupchak over the same time, and he gets alot of input from many sources including Pop. They traded Barbosa for a pick and took Beno over Varajeo, too. Their last pick of note was TP 7 years ago. And what about Dumars track record - drafting Darko and losing Big Ben for nothing? Phoenix had some good picks, but some terrible ones, and basically lost or sold players and picks they didn't want to pay for.
It is easy when you are close to the Lakers to pick apart their moves and parcel out credit and blame, but at the end of this all, I still ask the question:
Who has done a clearly better job than the Lakers (and Kupchak) since Mitch became the GM? With all of Mitch's flaws, 5 or 10 superior GMs must be obvious, right? |
There was a ranking of GMs in an article posted in LG, Kupchak was in the bottom quarter. |
Yeah - an opinion piece, which is exactly what I am trying to avoid. Everybody thinks Kupchak sucks - I get that. But I want to see GMs that have done better. I'll put it another way. SINCE MITCH SUCKS, who is the best GM to hire as a replacement? Show me someone that we can get, and show me how he is better, and I'll lead the angry, torch-carrying mob right to Staples Center and demand Mitch's head. The problem is, I can't find this mythical replacement GM anywhere. |
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Sky
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Rule - With the somewhat limited knowledge fans have, even fans with sources, any list is bound to be an approximation. That's my best stab at it. We can quibble around the edges and will never agree on Bynum. Just leave it there, enjoyed the debate.
JMK - Better GM's since Kupchak took over. ok.
Colangelo (Phoenix-Toronto)
Amare, Nash (FA), Raja (FA), Barbosa, Diaw, Bargnani, A Parker (FA), TJ Ford (trade). Hello. The heavyweight champ.
When he left Phoenix he was the GM I wanted most, but Toronto courted him in a hurry and Buss wasn't about to fire anyone. So to answer your who question - there's my answer - Colangelo. Water under the bridge.
O'Connor (Utah)
Boozer (FA), Okur (FA), draft Deron Williams, Paul Millsap, Ronnie Brewer.
Mullin (GS)
Baron for peanuts, Harrington and SJax for nuclear contracts, draft Biedrins and Monta (after Von Wafer btw), diamond in the rough signing Azubuike from the D League.
Dumars (Det)
Billups (FA), trade for Sheed, Ben and Rip, draft Tayshaun. Championship core.
Pritchard (Por)
Telfair and Ty Thomas draft slot converted into Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge. Hasn't been there long, but moves and drafts have been golden so far. Comes from the San Antonio front office, another guy I wanted LA to pursue.
Riley (Miami)
Draft Wade and Caron, trade for Shaq, deal for Posey, Haslem (FA).
Paxson (Chi)
Draft Deng, Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Sefolosha, Nocioni (FA).
Bower-Bass (New Orleans)
Draft Chris Paul and David West, trade for Tyson Chandler.
Grunfeld (Washington)
Arenas (FA), trade Kwame for Caron, pick for Jamison.
Cuban (Dal)
Terry (FA), draft Josh Howard and Devin Harris, Diop (FA), Stackhouse (FA)
There's 10. I suppose you can debate a few at the end of the list. But if you apply (to my thinking anyway) proper attribution that gives Mitch very little credit for Bynum and only partial credit for Turiaf then he really hasn't done that much. His draft successes are Walton, Farmar and eventually Crittenton. Trades best he can show are the Ho Grant rental (which ultimately cost Arenas) and Mihm who played ok for a year. Free agency only Malone, and others played a large role in that one.
Who can they get to replace Mitch, the best candidates have all taken jobs in the past two years. Colangelo, Pritchard and Presti (also from the SA front office) now in Seattle.
Michlake - Sorry I missed your question from earlier. From what I've heard Crittenton was a consensus pick of scouts, Lester, Jimmy and Kupchak all agreeing that he was easily best value at the pick.
It is uncharacteristic of Kupchak in the context of the Rush to Sasha train wreck, but in alignment with the picks from Bynum forward, Jimmy's influence on valuing physical skills. |
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Dennis_D
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Laker Lurker wrote: | | There was a ranking of GMs in an article posted in LG, Kupchak was in the bottom quarter. |
Link. It was apparently Kelly Dwyer's last piece for SI and you can see why. The piece was written in June and already looks dated.
#1 - R.C. Buford, San Antonio Spurs
Buford has been GM of the Spurs since July 2002 and every individual listed by Dwyer as acquired by Buford was acquired before Buford became GM.
#2 - Donnie Nelson, Dallas Mavericks
#3 - Joe Dumars, Detroit Pistons
#4 - Bryan Colangelo, Toronto Raptors
#5 - John Paxson, Chicago Bulls
In 4 seasons, he's taken his team from 30 wins to 49 wins in the Leastern Conference. He's biggest moves were signing Ben Wallace and then trading Tyson Chandler for JR Smith and PJ Brown. That's not looking so good right now.
#6 - Geoff Petrie
GM of one of the worst teams in the Western Conference
#7 - Pat Riley, Miami Heat
#8 - Rod Thorn, New Jersey Nets
Lands Jason Kidd and drafts Kenyon Martin and the team goes from 26 wins to 52 wins. Since then, a stead slide downward (with the exception of the '05-'06 team) with an aging pair of stars.
#9 - Kevin Pritchard, Portland Trail Blazers
Quite the ranking for a guy who had been GM for less than a month and had not made a single move
#10 - Kevin O'Connor, Utah Jazz
#11 - Ernie Grunfeld, Washington Wizards
In 4 seasons, he's taken the Wizards from a 37 win team to a 41 win team. They have also looked awful to start the season
#12 - Mark Warkentien, Denver Nuggets
#13 - Sam Presti, Seattle SuperSonics
Another guy who had been GM for less than a month and had not made a single move. Best line in the whole piece - Don't expect many wholesale changes in Presti's first offseason
#14 - Jeff Bower, New Orleans Hornets
#15 - Larry Harris, Milwaukee Bucks
Took a team from 42 wins to 28 wins in 4 seasons and that was with getting the #1 pick in the draft in between. Here are the minuses listed in the article: | Quote: | | Dumped coach Terry Porter after his second season -- Harris may have underestimated a team that won 41 games in 2003-04 and overestimated a team that won 30 games the following season without T.J. Ford. Took Andrew Bogut with the top pick in '05. Bogut is already a fine pivot man, but he'd probably be ranked no better than fourth on the prospect list (behind Chris Paul, Deron Williams and David Lee) should the re-draft happen two years later. Let Pachulia get away the same summer and overpaid for '05 Most Improved Player Bobby Simmons. Before '05-06, he traded for Jamaal Magloire, who promptly took minutes away from Bogut and took shots away from those who were better at making them. Let Terry Stotts run the show in '05-06 and for most of '06-07, halting his team's growth and ensuring the Bucks would remain one of the NBA's worst defensive teams. Jury is still out on the Ford-for-Charlie Villanueva deal. |
#16 - Daryl Morey, Houston Rockets
Another short-timer GM, but at least he had made some moves. Way to early to judge them of course.
#17 - Chris Mullin, Golden State Warriors
#18 - Steve Kerr, Phoenix Suns
Yet another short-term GM
#19 - Elgin Baylor, Los Angeles Clippers
#20 - Danny Ferry, Cleveland Cavaliers
#21 - Larry Bird, Indiana Pacers
#22 - Danny Ainge, Boston Celtics
#23 - Mitch Kupchak, Los Angeles Lakers
#24 - Otis Smith, Orlando Magic
#25 - Isiah Thomas, New York Knicks
#26 - Billy King, Philadelphia 76ers
#27 - Chris Wallace, Memphis Grizzlies
Another short-term GM
#28 - Billy Knight, Atlanta Hawks
#29 - Michael Jordan, Charlotte Bobcats
Huh? The Bobcats aren't that bad
#30 - Kevin McHale, Minneosta Timberwolves
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JerryMagicKobe
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | JMK - Better GM's since Kupchak took over. ok.
Colangelo (Phoenix-Toronto)
Amare, Nash (FA), Raja (FA), Barbosa, Diaw, Bargnani, A Parker (FA), TJ Ford (trade). Hello. The heavyweight champ.
When he left Phoenix he was the GM I wanted most, but Toronto courted him in a hurry and Buss wasn't about to fire anyone. So to answer your who question - there's my answer - Colangelo. Water under the bridge.
O'Connor (Utah)
Boozer (FA), Okur (FA), draft Deron Williams, Paul Millsap, Ronnie Brewer.
Mullin (GS)
Baron for peanuts, Harrington and SJax for nuclear contracts, draft Biedrins and Monta (after Von Wafer btw), diamond in the rough signing Azubuike from the D League.
Dumars (Det)
Billups (FA), trade for Sheed, Ben and Rip, draft Tayshaun. Championship core.
Pritchard (Por)
Telfair and Ty Thomas draft slot converted into Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge. Hasn't been there long, but moves and drafts have been golden so far. Comes from the San Antonio front office, another guy I wanted LA to pursue.
Riley (Miami)
Draft Wade and Caron, trade for Shaq, deal for Posey, Haslem (FA).
Paxson (Chi)
Draft Deng, Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Sefolosha, Nocioni (FA).
Bower-Bass (New Orleans)
Draft Chris Paul and David West, trade for Tyson Chandler.
Grunfeld (Washington)
Arenas (FA), trade Kwame for Caron, pick for Jamison.
Cuban (Dal)
Terry (FA), draft Josh Howard and Devin Harris, Diop (FA), Stackhouse (FA)
There's 10. I suppose you can debate a few at the end of the list. But if you apply (to my thinking anyway) proper attribution that gives Mitch very little credit for Bynum and only partial credit for Turiaf then he really hasn't done that much. His draft successes are Walton, Farmar and eventually Crittenton. Trades best he can show are the Ho Grant rental (which ultimately cost Arenas) and Mihm who played ok for a year. Free agency only Malone, and others played a large role in that one.
Who can they get to replace Mitch, the best candidates have all taken jobs in the past two years. Colangelo, Pritchard and Presti (also from the SA front office) now in Seattle. |
Wait - If you are going to take players out from the discussion for the Lakers, then do it fot the other teams, too. Or do you want to just see Mitch (without Bynum and Turiaf) VS. EVERY OTHER GM WITHOUT REGARD TO SHARING CREDIT WITHIN THEIR ORGANIZATION?
Most teams in the league goes through the same type of process for scouting and evaluating talent. They rely on scouts, coaches, assistants, former players, broadcasters, college team coaches, agents, other players, etc. to form their opinions.
BTW - If you discredit Kupchak for Bynum and Turiaf, you should discredit West for the same things (who gets credit for Magic? Was he West's first choice? Wasn't Sharman the GM; What about Worthy - I think West liked someone else better and had to be sold on him. . .)
Or, since we are Lakers fans, we could do The Lakers vs. every other team regardless of WHO gets the credit. But then there aren't 10 teams who have done better. Not even 5.
And Colangelo, Presti and Pritchard aren't leaving their honeymoon rides in new cities with young Lottery-Pick rosters drafted on the backs of years of misery, so does that mean we should keep Mitch? |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | Rule - With the somewhat limited knowledge fans have, even fans with sources, any list is bound to be an approximation. That's my best stab at it. We can quibble around the edges and will never agree on Bynum. Just leave it there, enjoyed the debate.
JMK - Better GM's since Kupchak took over. ok.
Colangelo (Phoenix-Toronto)
Amare, Nash (FA), Raja (FA), Barbosa, Diaw, Bargnani, A Parker (FA), TJ Ford (trade). Hello. The heavyweight champ.
When he left Phoenix he was the GM I wanted most, but Toronto courted him in a hurry and Buss wasn't about to fire anyone. So to answer your who question - there's my answer - Colangelo. Water under the bridge.
O'Connor (Utah)
Boozer (FA), Okur (FA), draft Deron Williams, Paul Millsap, Ronnie Brewer.
Mullin (GS)
Baron for peanuts, Harrington and SJax for nuclear contracts, draft Biedrins and Monta (after Von Wafer btw), diamond in the rough signing Azubuike from the D League.
Dumars (Det)
Billups (FA), trade for Sheed, Ben and Rip, draft Tayshaun. Championship core.
Pritchard (Por)
Telfair and Ty Thomas draft slot converted into Brandon Roy and LaMarcus Aldridge. Hasn't been there long, but moves and drafts have been golden so far. Comes from the San Antonio front office, another guy I wanted LA to pursue.
Riley (Miami)
Draft Wade and Caron, trade for Shaq, deal for Posey, Haslem (FA).
Paxson (Chi)
Draft Deng, Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Sefolosha, Nocioni (FA).
Bower-Bass (New Orleans)
Draft Chris Paul and David West, trade for Tyson Chandler.
Grunfeld (Washington)
Arenas (FA), trade Kwame for Caron, pick for Jamison.
Cuban (Dal)
Terry (FA), draft Josh Howard and Devin Harris, Diop (FA), Stackhouse (FA)
There's 10. I suppose you can debate a few at the end of the list. But if you apply (to my thinking anyway) proper attribution that gives Mitch very little credit for Bynum and only partial credit for Turiaf then he really hasn't done that much. His draft successes are Walton, Farmar and eventually Crittenton. Trades best he can show are the Ho Grant rental (which ultimately cost Arenas) and Mihm who played ok for a year. Free agency only Malone, and others played a large role in that one.
Who can they get to replace Mitch, the best candidates have all taken jobs in the past two years. Colangelo, Pritchard and Presti (also from the SA front office) now in Seattle.
Michlake - Sorry I missed your question from earlier. From what I've heard Crittenton was a consensus pick of scouts, Lester, Jimmy and Kupchak all agreeing that he was easily best value at the pick.
It is uncharacteristic of Kupchak in the context of the Rush to Sasha train wreck, but in alignment with the picks from Bynum forward, Jimmy's influence on valuing physical skills. |
You're going to get a different list with each person you ask as far as ranking GM's
I think JMK's point who is out there available that you can replace Mitch with.
As far as your list is concerned, to be honest it is debatable either way after Dumars. It is important to remember that most if not all of those picks used to base the GM ranking were high picks contrary to where all of Mitch's picks were other than the selection for Drew. One would expect better picks if they are higher up in the draft.
With that said, I know my views on Mitch are unpopular on this board but I personally rank him no worse than towards the bottom 3rd of the NBA thus somewhere around 6-10.
I know that's not good enough for some fans on this board and I know most would disagree but frankly speaking where I rank Mitch personally puts the Lakers better off than what a lot of other teams currently have, imho.
I might add that Jerry West has a very high regard toward Mitch and as we all know Jerry is himself very highly regarded on this board.
_________________
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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LakerEric
Star Player
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 7193
Location: Vegas
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Jeffs wrote: | Can't just look at the good things he has done. Drafting (and extending) Cook over Barbosa, drafting Sasha over Howard, signing Vlade, McKie, and Shammond. He has made his fair share of very bad moves or non-moves.
Even if you grant that the good outweighs the bad (I don't), don't get ahead of yourself. There are still 79 games left to play, and that's all before the "real" season starts. |
I agree with Jeffs...I'll wait on the high praise for now....
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Sky
Star Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Up
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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We should have gone after Colangelo when we had the chance. Said so at the time.
Discredit West for Magic absolutely. Logo wanted Moncrief. Another great player, but obviously not on Magic's level. Give credit where credit is due.
Even if you (imo erroneously) give credit to Kupchak for Bynum and Turiaf is his record all that great? No. No impact in trades, 90% bust rate in free agency, good recent drafts when the input of others was clearly a factor given what preceded it when Kupchak flew solo (Rush, Cook, Sasha). Change in methodology, change in valuation philosophy, change in results. Credit Kupchak for embracing that change, but others enabled it.
ok so who else that's available now? I like Worthy's take on players he has a great eye. Bring him on staff and let him develop. A Hall of Famer with the glow of Showtime can only help.
Kupchak overvalues shooting and undervalues defense and that bias is omnipresent on the roster. I would fire him, but I have a bias toward athelticsm and defense so I am angry about a bias that goes against my preferences. Doesn't matter, Buss is too loyal, it will never happen. So the Mitch defenders have nothing to worry about. Their man will remain right here making sure we are amply stocked in gunner matadors.
There are five teams that have done better over the period described. Dumars built a championship core five from scratch. Better achievement than LA? Absolutely. Colangelo in Phoenix. Colangelo in Toronto. Mullin in Oakland. O'Connor in Utah. There's five teams already.
Last edited by Sky on Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jeremysnow
Star Player
Joined: 27 Jun 2002
Posts: 7079
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sky & All at Lakers Ground:
My grandson commented to me that he read that read in Lakers Ground that Mitch wanted Sean May.
According to my husband, that is not accurate. My husband ("Jeremy Snow, M.D.") wanted to correct the record. Please understand that "Jeremy" is physically ill, but wanted me to dispell that rumor regarding Sean May. "Jeremy" states that Mitch had a few reservations about Sean May. In his bold way, "Jeremy" wanted Mitch to trade up to draft "Raymond Felton." Mitch, however, stated that it would very difficult to trade up that high. My husband wanted him to draft Tiago Splitter (sic?), however, Mitch was not familiar with Splitter at the time. Finally, my husband recalls*** that Jimmy and Mitch decided on Andrew Bynum. "Jeremy" did research for Mitch regarding Bynum's knee and wrote Mitch, regarding his medical opinion. Subsequently, he's been commenting to Mitch on numerous occasions, about being extremely careful on the minutes that Andrew plays. Mitch and the Lakers, according to "Jeremy" have done very well, with regarding to gradually increasing this young man's minutes. "Jeremy" has lobbied for years about raising the age of pro basketball draftees. "Jeremy" was upset that the age was "only raised to 19 (or so)." Jeremy (as you all may know) is very opinionated on this issue... and others. (He can be a very stubborn old man). Hee-hee (I hope this doesn't get back to him).
Finally, "Jeremy" said to give my regards to everyone in Lakers Ground (Our family, had to restrict his viewing of Lakers Ground, because he is so obsessed about the Lakers, would wear himself thin, reading the enthusiastic posts and trying to share his own opinions.
Also, "Jeremy" made it clear to me to be VERY respectful to Sky, who he admires much for his insightful comments. Please Sky, don't take these comments in a wrong manner, since "Jeremy" thinks the world of you.
I wanted to make these comments earlier, but "Jeremy" couldn't remember his password. (I'm not the most computer literate person).
Ms. "Jeremy Snow," M.D.
***("Jeremy" had to retire from his medical practice. Both his health and memory has been failing, but he "does seems to be relatively sharp" on Laker history (I'm not the Laker fan that he is). He still keeps in touch with a few front office types; who have been absolutel wonderful to our family. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| LakerEric wrote: | | Jeffs wrote: | Can't just look at the good things he has done. Drafting (and extending) Cook over Barbosa, drafting Sasha over Howard, signing Vlade, McKie, and Shammond. He has made his fair share of very bad moves or non-moves.
Even if you grant that the good outweighs the bad (I don't), don't get ahead of yourself. There are still 79 games left to play, and that's all before the "real" season starts. |
I agree with Jeffs...I'll wait on the high praise for now.... |
| Quote: |
Drafting (and extending) Cook over Barbosa, drafting Sasha over Howard, signing Vlade, McKie, and Shammond. |
If your talking about Josh Howard and I think that is who you are refering to it was Cook over both Sasha and Howard in the same draft.
24. Los Angeles Lakers Brian Cook
25. Detroit Pistons Carlos Delfino
26. Minnesota Timberwolves Ndudi Ebi
27. Memphis Grizzlies Kendrick Perkins
28. San Antonio Spurs Leandro Barbosa
29. Dallas Mavericks Josh Howard
Take note that Jerry West and Joe Dumars also missed on both Barbosa and Howard.
As far as Sasha is concerned who did Mitch miss other than posssibly Varejao? And in that regard some other highly regarded GM's passed on him as well.
27. Los Angeles Lakers Sasha Vujacic
28. San Antonio Spurs Beno Udrih
29. Indiana Pacers David Harrison
30. Orlando Magic Anderson Varejao
31. Chicago Bulls Jackson Vroman
32. Washington Wizards Peter John Ramos
33. Los Angeles Clippers Lionel
34. Atlanta Hawks Donta Smith
35. Seattle Supersonics Andre
36. Orlando Magic Antonio Burks
37. Atlanta Hawks Royal Ivey
The signing of Vlade? Are we talking about Divac, if so he had played 80+ games for 5 straight years before the signing, no way to predict he would break down. Divac's stats were consistant all 5 of the last years.
Or are we talking about Radmanovic, if so it starting to look like a pretty good signing if you ask me, again injuries were a factor last year for him as we all know.
Mckie was Phil's doing...
Shammond had back problems that again can't be predicted.
Basically holes in the points used to criticize Mitch, imho.
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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Sky
Star Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Up
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Rule - ok take the high picks and cap room away.
Colangelo dealt for Barbosa after Kupchak passed on him. Raja was not a high priced free agent signing. Parker was sub MLE. Ford was a trade.
Mullin took Monta after Wafer in the second round. The rest are trades and a ski mask job in Azubuike from the D league.
Dumars moves are trades, MLE for Chauncey and he picked Tayshaun after Kupchak passed on him.
New Orleans stole Chandler. Josh Howard picked after Kupchak passed on him.
Top 6-10 in the league for a GM that ignores defense and overstocks one-way one dimensional players? Disagree with that. Lower half of the league, but not the bottom quarter. |
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Sky
Star Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Up
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Ms. Snow - Please pass my warmest regards to your husband. He is deeply missed. Your husband is a class act and I hope he recovers. My prayers go with him and your family.
Given Jeremy's friendship with Mitch I will take him at his word that Kupchak had misgivings about May. Good to hear.
If Jeremy is up to it I would appreciate hearing from him. skyinla (@) yahoo.com.
Take good care of yourselves. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| jeremysnow wrote: | | Finally, my husband recalls*** that Jimmy and Mitch decided on Andrew Bynum. "Jeremy" did research for Mitch regarding Bynum's knee and wrote Mitch |
That pretty much puts things in perspective thanks to Dr. Jeremy Snow's wife.
Dennis_D does appear to be vindicated (along with myself to some extent) as far as Mitch's interest in Drew.
Here's wishing all the best for Dr. Snow.
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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Sky
Star Player
Joined: 15 Apr 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Up
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| They decided on Bynum, but when was that joint decision made? Who did Mitch prefer initially is what is at question. |
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Freakout
Franchise Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 11796
Location: WV
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| jeremysnow wrote: | Sky & All at Lakers Ground:
My grandson commented to me that he read that read in Lakers Ground that Mitch wanted Sean May.
According to my husband, that is not accurate. My husband ("Jeremy Snow, M.D.") wanted to correct the record. Please understand that "Jeremy" is physically ill, but wanted me to dispell that rumor regarding Sean May. "Jeremy" states that Mitch had a few reservations about Sean May. In his bold way, "Jeremy" wanted Mitch to trade up to draft "Raymond Felton." Mitch, however, stated that it would very difficult to trade up that high. My husband wanted him to draft Tiago Splitter (sic?), however, Mitch was not familiar with Splitter at the time. Finally, my husband recalls*** that Jimmy and Mitch decided on Andrew Bynum. "Jeremy" did research for Mitch regarding Bynum's knee and wrote Mitch, regarding his medical opinion. Subsequently, he's been commenting to Mitch on numerous occasions, about being extremely careful on the minutes that Andrew plays. Mitch and the Lakers, according to "Jeremy" have done very well, with regarding to gradually increasing this young man's minutes. "Jeremy" has lobbied for years about raising the age of pro basketball draftees. "Jeremy" was upset that the age was "only raised to 19 (or so)." Jeremy (as you all may know) is very opinionated on this issue... and others. (He can be a very stubborn old man). Hee-hee (I hope this doesn't get back to him).
Finally, "Jeremy" said to give my regards to everyone in Lakers Ground (Our family, had to restrict his viewing of Lakers Ground, because he is so obsessed about the Lakers, would wear himself thin, reading the enthusiastic posts and trying to share his own opinions.
Also, "Jeremy" made it clear to me to be VERY respectful to Sky, who he admires much for his insightful comments. Please Sky, don't take these comments in a wrong manner, since "Jeremy" thinks the world of you.
I wanted to make these comments earlier, but "Jeremy" couldn't remember his password. (I'm not the most computer literate person).
Ms. "Jeremy Snow," M.D.
***("Jeremy" had to retire from his medical practice. Both his health and memory has been failing, but he "does seems to be relatively sharp" on Laker history (I'm not the Laker fan that he is). He still keeps in touch with a few front office types; who have been absolutel wonderful to our family. |
I hate to hear that Jeremy's not doing well. I always liked reading about his conversations in the Box. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
Franchise Player
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | They decided on Bynum, but when was that joint decision made? Who did Mitch prefer initially is what is at question. |
Agreed, all I'm saying is that it would appear that Mitch was fully on board and as to who Mitch might of prefered early on before he was commited to Drew is to me secondary.
After all who's to say that at some point Jimmy had someone else in mind as well.
As has been posted there are many person's involved in decisions of this sort. Jimmy clearly could be the first on the scene regarding Drew and maybe yes Mitch had other considerations.
What really matters in my mind is where did Mitch finally come down and it would appear he was totally behind Drew and following up on health concerns regarding the pick.
It can get pretty confusing if we are looking to see who else is advising GM's on all of there decisions and where each stood at what time. I think we can conclude there is all kinds of give and take just as there was between Sharman, West and Chick over Magic vs Moncrief when Buss was in negotiations to buy the Lakers.
Suffice to say, Mitch was commited at some point before the draft and thus made a decision on his own based on the information he had and whether one wants to give Jimmy 95% credit or just 50% credit doesn't matter as much as the fact that Mitch did agree with Jimmy after some deliberation.
As I said, I clearly concede the fact that Mitch may have been considering other players, this is not a bad thing. The bottom line is that he did not disagree with Jimmy on this but was clearly fully aboard and thus whether or not he was first on the scene or not he made a decision that Drew was the right pick. As GM he get's credit for that pick the same as any other GM will get credit regardless of the scouting or other FO input involved.
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Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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seccom
Starting Rotation
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 411
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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This is one of the best thread that I have read in this site in a long while.
Sky + other vs Dennis+Rule+other are doing an excellent job in this debat.
Both side present their view with the best available information and document.
Very well done.
It is so refreshing than many emoticons based one liner.
BTW, I remember Dancing Berry actually called the Bynum choice before the draft. Am I right? |
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