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LA_Lakers_Rule
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 Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Reply to a locked thread |
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This has to do with the following thread that was locked without any explanation at all.
An important message for the Kobe jockers.
I think the problem with posts on Kobe that can be taken as a criticism of Kobe is that the post is to often taken personally.
Perhaps the OP should not have prefaced his post title with the reference of "Kobe Jockers" and maybe the thread would have taken a kinder and gentaler route. 
To be fair I think in all honesty those who will look back without taking the idea personally will agree that there have been times when Kobe tried to take it upon himself to win games and ultimately took to many ill-advised shots that resulted in defeats.
Now the fans who will take this personally will say that at those times Kobe had to do this because no one else was hitting shots.
One question in regards to that.... sure maybe the rest of the team had maybe not hit their shots at the time for awhile but does that mean they will continue to miss shots. All players, including Kobe, go through slumps.
How can we know the rest of the team would continue to miss shots if they were not given the opportunity to prove otherwise.
I think a much more important concept here is for Kobe to take GOOD shots and NOT TAKE FORCED SHOTS.
Again in all honesty can we not remember times when we had threads on this board on the topic of Kobe taking to many forced shots in the past at times with a result of a fg% for Kobe in the 30's for example.
In all fairness to the OP, the bad thread title aside, the point is a good one.... Kobe mixed it up well and did not tend to take any forced shots and kept his teamates involved at the right times and still scored a phenominal point total as well. Is that to necessarily say that Kobe has not done this prior to tonight.... not really.... Kobe has been doing this for some time now as I said before.
I think maybe the OP should have also pointed out that Kobe has been doing a very good job of involving his teamates generally and has exhibited a much better shot selection throughout the year this year with only a few exceptions.
Again as we know this has not always been the case.... but it would have been a better approach for the OP to acknowledge the fact that Kobe has improved in this regard for this entire year.
Kobe gave us the best of both worlds and did it exceptionally well last night. Maybe this is all the OP is really trying to say.....
As a final note in as much as I felt the thread topic was a topic that really only intended to point out how Kobe was very efficient in this game deserved to remain available....
Sadly I suppose those who tend to take things in the wrong way or to personally and as a result tend to feel they must in some way be the arbiter in Kobe's defense to the extent that this ultimately leads those who feel this way to become much to defensive.
I really do not understand why members cannot discuss issues like these on a reasonable and intellegent level.
There I feel better.... 
_________________
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Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...  |
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Trey
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| "Kobe Jockers" <<< that is all it needed to be locked |
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Exick
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:54 am Post subject: |
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What Trey said. It was locked because it was intended to call people out. Much the same way the thread that called out Kobe haters was.
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JTS
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Reply to a locked thread |
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| LA_Lakers_Rule wrote: | This has to do with the following thread that was locked without any explanation at all.
An important message for the Kobe jockers.
I think the problem with posts on Kobe that can be taken as a criticism of Kobe is that the post is to often taken personally.
Perhaps the OP should not have prefaced his post title with the reference of "Kobe Jockers" and maybe the thread would have taken a kinder and gentaler route.
To be fair I think in all honesty those who will look back without taking the idea personally will agree that there have been times when Kobe tried to take it upon himself to win games and ultimately took to many ill-advised shots that resulted in defeats.
Now the fans who will take this personally will say that at those times Kobe had to do this because no one else was hitting shots.
One question in regards to that.... sure maybe the rest of the team had maybe not hit their shots at the time for awhile but does that mean they will continue to miss shots. All players, including Kobe, go through slumps.
How can we know the rest of the team would continue to miss shots if they were not given the opportunity to prove otherwise.
I think a much more important concept here is for Kobe to take GOOD shots and NOT TAKE FORCED SHOTS.
Again in all honesty can we not remember times when we had threads on this board on the topic of Kobe taking to many forced shots in the past at times with a result of a fg% for Kobe in the 30's for example.
In all fairness to the OP, the bad thread title aside, the point is a good one.... Kobe mixed it up well and did not tend to take any forced shots and kept his teamates involved at the right times and still scored a phenominal point total as well. Is that to necessarily say that Kobe has not done this prior to tonight.... not really.... Kobe has been doing this for some time now as I said before.
I think maybe the OP should have also pointed out that Kobe has been doing a very good job of involving his teamates generally and has exhibited a much better shot selection throughout the year this year with only a few exceptions.
Again as we know this has not always been the case.... but it would have been a better approach for the OP to acknowledge the fact that Kobe has improved in this regard for this entire year.
Kobe gave us the best of both worlds and did it exceptionally well last night. Maybe this is all the OP is really trying to say.....
As a final note in as much as I felt the thread topic was a topic that really only intended to point out how Kobe was very efficient in this game deserved to remain available....
Sadly I suppose those who tend to take things in the wrong way or to personally and as a result tend to feel they must in some way be the arbiter in Kobe's defense to the extent that this ultimately leads those who feel this way to become much to defensive.
I really do not understand why members cannot discuss issues like these on a reasonable and intellegent level.
There I feel better.... |
sorry dude, IMHO the OP was 'making a point' by using that term.
and all you pointed out is what's on the opposites ends of the debate.
those who are fans of kobe view that he didn't have the supporting cast.
those who aren't think he's a ball hog.
most people (just like how the media is discussed on LG) have an agenda on him and other players too (like upteen odom threads) and their opinions aren't going to be changed.
we'll just let each player from kobe to coby karl represent on the court.
and btw, the consensus is quite clear that kobe has been the best kobe this season and that's all i care about now.
plashke is give kobe props??? 
kobe critics,
that's telling.
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That said, everything is looking pretty rosy for the Lakers, which brings up the question of whether some of their younger players might find complacency in success.
"Not at all," Bryant said, smiling. "I won't let that happen. I crack the whip." |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Now the fans who will take this personally will say that at those times Kobe had to do this because no one else was hitting shots.
One question in regards to that.... sure maybe the rest of the team had maybe not hit their shots at the time for awhile but does that mean they will continue to miss shots. All players, including Kobe, go through slumps. |
Why must it be "taking it personally" if someone concludes that Kobe didn't trust his teammates enough to pass them the ball more? Seems like a reasonable conclusion.
The same reason is given by people defending Lamar Odom's play the last 3 seasons; he wasn't able to be this good because he and Kobe didn't have anyone else around them to make them look this good.
Both reasons seem to make sense to me.
| Quote: | | I think a much more important concept here is for Kobe to take GOOD shots and NOT TAKE FORCED SHOTS. |
Agreed. But with Kobe it's almost impossible to distinguish between a "good" shot and a "forced" shot, considering he's capable of hitting both on any given occasion.
| Quote: | | Kobe gave us the best of both worlds and did it exceptionally well last night. |
Even if it wasn't the OP's intent, this is the truth. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:13 am Post subject: |
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| Exick wrote: | | What Trey said. It was locked because it was intended to call people out. Much the same way the thread that called out Kobe haters was. |
Thank you for the reason for the lock.... I didn't see this explanation in the original thread.
I would agree that the OP selected a very poor choice of words (clearly can be considered inflamatory to sensetive loggers) but I would suggest that maybe this was not the intention of the OP since the post topic was generally positive toward Kobe actually.
Just a suggestion.... Would the alternative of changing the thread title been a better approach possibley than a lock in this case? 
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...
Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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vanexelent
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| By the way, I like how a thread can be locked and all one has to do is open a new one commenting on the locked thread and then the same discussion may continue. Is that legal? |
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Addicus
Star Player
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 9642
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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To the OP -
Your point is well taken. Yet we must remember one word when evaluating Kobe - TALENT.
Not his talent. His teammates talent. What we are seeing is the Kobe from the 3peat years except he is wiser and more experienced and doesn't have a guy on the block "demanding" the ball.
This team is assembled around his talents like LeBron's Cav's, CP3's Hornets and Duncan's Spurs. Now we are able to see all the great things Kobe can do in a single game because his teammates are capable of capitalizing on the opportunities they have.
Gasol seemed to have a bad game yesterday visually yet had 18 points / 10 rebounds / ? assists and shot 60%. If Kwame ever had a game like that we would all be screaming that Kwame finally got it knowing damn well it was a fluke. With Gasol we get this nearly every night and if he really goes off like Game 1 the other team is truly screwed.
Fisher is a smart player who keeps his head in the game. We could never say these 2 things about Smush Parker and when your point guard (traditional role or other wise) is a head case the team is in trouble.
Sasha actually hits shots. Kobe has always set him up but until this year when he transformed into the Machine, he was the ultimate brick layer. This is bad because he never had a conscious and that meant we were gonna see 6-7 terrible shots from him nightly. 6-7 bad possessions every night from just one guy is nearly impossible to recover from.
Add into the mix Lamar finally being in his role for the team, Luke getting healthy and playing well, the addition of Vlad who is a threat whenever on the court, DJ/Turiaf giving us great back up minutes (since Mihm was injured and Bynum just not ready) and Farmar generally playing a well rounded game and what you have is a team and not just a superstar and some scrubs.
No longer are we watching Kobe coming into every game trying to figure out how the defense would attack him, but how he was going to have to beat it without much help from the other guys.
To see how effective he was going against double and triple teams, 3 or 4 defenders nightly and putting up the number he did and not running out of gas in the fourth like TMac is vs Jazz only grows my respect for his game and will to win.
I'm glad he doesn't have to exert that amount of energy nightly. I enjoy watching this team play. What I enjoy most is watching people who simply hate/hated him have all their excuses vaporized before their eyes and their consensus response be, "It's about time!".
They are right. It's about time they recognize his greatness. It's about time they let go of their love for false idols (Shaq) and realize this guy has always given every ounce he could for the Lakers Organization to win championships. It about time they enjoy what we may not see again for many, many years.
Live in the moment. Get on his jock.
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Stop crying and start doing.
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Addicus
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re4ee
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Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Rehashing of rehashing of rehashing of rehashing of rehashing the same old tired points.
Kobe's not perfect, who has ever been?
Calling out the mods is not a very wise practice, good luck.
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DaMuleRules
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Joined: 10 Dec 2006
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Location: Making a safety stop at 15 feet.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Trey wrote: | | "Kobe Jockers" <<< that is all it needed to be locked |
Yep
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You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
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Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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JTS
Starting Rotation
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 486
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| psydesho wrote: | To the OP -
Your point is well taken. Yet we must remember one word when evaluating Kobe - TALENT.
Not his talent. His teammates talent. What we are seeing is the Kobe from the 3peat years except he is wiser and more experienced and doesn't have a guy on the block "demanding" the ball.
This team is assembled around his talents like LeBron's Cav's, CP3's Hornets and Duncan's Spurs. Now we are able to see all the great things Kobe can do in a single game because his teammates are capable of capitalizing on the opportunities they have.
Gasol seemed to have a bad game yesterday visually yet had 18 points / 10 rebounds / ? assists and shot 60%. If Kwame ever had a game like that we would all be screaming that Kwame finally got it knowing damn well it was a fluke. With Gasol we get this nearly every night and if he really goes off like Game 1 the other team is truly screwed.
Fisher is a smart player who keeps his head in the game. We could never say these 2 things about Smush Parker and when your point guard (traditional role or other wise) is a head case the team is in trouble.
Sasha actually hits shots. Kobe has always set him up but until this year when he transformed into the Machine, he was the ultimate brick layer. This is bad because he never had a conscious and that meant we were gonna see 6-7 terrible shots from him nightly. 6-7 bad possessions every night from just one guy is nearly impossible to recover from.
Add into the mix Lamar finally being in his role for the team, Luke getting healthy and playing well, the addition of Vlad who is a threat whenever on the court, DJ/Turiaf giving us great back up minutes (since Mihm was injured and Bynum just not ready) and Farmar generally playing a well rounded game and what you have is a team and not just a superstar and some scrubs.
No longer are we watching Kobe coming into every game trying to figure out how the defense would attack him, but how he was going to have to beat it without much help from the other guys.
To see how effective he was going against double and triple teams, 3 or 4 defenders nightly and putting up the number he did and not running out of gas in the fourth like TMac is vs Jazz only grows my respect for his game and will to win.
I'm glad he doesn't have to exert that amount of energy nightly. I enjoy watching this team play. What I enjoy most is watching people who simply hate/hated him have all their excuses vaporized before their eyes and their consensus response be, "It's about time!".
They are right. It's about time they recognize his greatness. It's about time they let go of their love for false idols (Shaq) and realize this guy has always given every ounce he could for the Lakers Organization to win championships. It about time they enjoy what we may not see again for many, many years.
Live in the moment. Get on his jock. |
| Quote: | | Damn, that was a good post! |
yup, it was. 
_________________
That said, everything is looking pretty rosy for the Lakers, which brings up the question of whether some of their younger players might find complacency in success.
"Not at all," Bryant said, smiling. "I won't let that happen. I crack the whip." |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 19482
Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| vanexelent wrote: | | By the way, I like how a thread can be locked and all one has to do is open a new one commenting on the locked thread and then the same discussion may continue. Is that legal? |
Very good question.... although I'd perhaps use the words "allowed" or "appropriate" instead of the word "legal"....
I have in the past asked the mods this very question in the "user feedback..." forum.
My question was posed in the event that there may have not been an explanation to why the thread was locked and a logger may be in the opinion that they have something that might be considered worthy of comment in regards to the thread topic. In this event how would this be looked upon by the mods?
I did not get an answer.....
Perhaps an answer is forthcoming.... in any event if the thread is locked once again this would perhaps suffice to answer the question you have possed.
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ... |
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re4ee
Franchise Player
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 12237
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| JTS wrote: | | psydesho wrote: | To the OP -
Your point is well taken. Yet we must remember one word when evaluating Kobe - TALENT.
Not his talent. His teammates talent. What we are seeing is the Kobe from the 3peat years except he is wiser and more experienced and doesn't have a guy on the block "demanding" the ball.
This team is assembled around his talents like LeBron's Cav's, CP3's Hornets and Duncan's Spurs. Now we are able to see all the great things Kobe can do in a single game because his teammates are capable of capitalizing on the opportunities they have.
Gasol seemed to have a bad game yesterday visually yet had 18 points / 10 rebounds / ? assists and shot 60%. If Kwame ever had a game like that we would all be screaming that Kwame finally got it knowing damn well it was a fluke. With Gasol we get this nearly every night and if he really goes off like Game 1 the other team is truly screwed.
Fisher is a smart player who keeps his head in the game. We could never say these 2 things about Smush Parker and when your point guard (traditional role or other wise) is a head case the team is in trouble.
Sasha actually hits shots. Kobe has always set him up but until this year when he transformed into the Machine, he was the ultimate brick layer. This is bad because he never had a conscious and that meant we were gonna see 6-7 terrible shots from him nightly. 6-7 bad possessions every night from just one guy is nearly impossible to recover from.
Add into the mix Lamar finally being in his role for the team, Luke getting healthy and playing well, the addition of Vlad who is a threat whenever on the court, DJ/Turiaf giving us great back up minutes (since Mihm was injured and Bynum just not ready) and Farmar generally playing a well rounded game and what you have is a team and not just a superstar and some scrubs.
No longer are we watching Kobe coming into every game trying to figure out how the defense would attack him, but how he was going to have to beat it without much help from the other guys.
To see how effective he was going against double and triple teams, 3 or 4 defenders nightly and putting up the number he did and not running out of gas in the fourth like TMac is vs Jazz only grows my respect for his game and will to win.
I'm glad he doesn't have to exert that amount of energy nightly. I enjoy watching this team play. What I enjoy most is watching people who simply hate/hated him have all their excuses vaporized before their eyes and their consensus response be, "It's about time!".
They are right. It's about time they recognize his greatness. It's about time they let go of their love for false idols (Shaq) and realize this guy has always given every ounce he could for the Lakers Organization to win championships. It about time they enjoy what we may not see again for many, many years.
Live in the moment. Get on his jock. |
| Quote: | | Damn, that was a good post! |
yup, it was. |
It never ceases to amaze me that there are Laker fans who refuse to let themselves just sit back and enjoy what Kobe displays on a nightly basis. They seem to expect Kobe to be the first PERFECT player in the history of sports, when he only approaches perfection, they seem to take it as a personal affront, and are apparently unable to enjoy his incredible talent. They stretch credulety to find faults and strain reality in an effort to make their points, when in reality all they are saying is "Kobe's not perfect."
Just enjoy what he CAN and DOES do, rather than bellyache about the very few things he struggles with.
Kobe's not perfect, but he IS the very best of the very best at present, when he's retired will those "fans" realize all the basketball viewing pleasure the rest of us are enjoying in real time?
_________________
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Tim
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Joined: 18 Feb 2004
Posts: 543
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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As the original poster on "Kobe Jockers" I understand the reasoning for the lock.
In my defense, however, it seems as though when someone attempts to criticize, rather critique Kobe's game, they are labelled a Troll or a Hater. What is the difference betwee this type of callout or the Kobe Jocker callout?
I realize that this is "Lakersground" and people here are fans of the Lakers, so there will be a great bias toward positivity about Laker players. Having said that, there is certainly no limit to the amount of criticism allowed to be fired at other players.
Kobe is untouchable to certain people, and regardless of what anyone says, you can STILL be a fan of someone and be critical of them at the same time.
I got crushed as well for my post a few weeks ago when I began by saying, "Im a huge Kobe fan, but..." Its as if a switch goes off and people refuse to read the content and get blinded by their loyalty to Kobe, immediately hurling insults or dancing padlocks...
The difference between people like me and Kobe haters is this: I want Kobe to play well, and I root for him to do well and maximize his ability. I want him to be the best he can be. Kobe haters want him to fail. Its as simple as that.
Its too bad the original post was locked, I was being very complementary and I think this is a worthwhile discussion. |
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tw-lakbfan
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Joined: 29 Jun 2001
Posts: 16636
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Not this again.
Kobe now finally has a team built around him and his team has had/will have success.
Enjoy the ride, don't nitpick.
Last edited by tw-lakbfan on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total |
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xpac10man
Rookie
Joined: 17 Apr 2008
Posts: 18
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:03 am Post subject: |
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Calling people out? Who cares.
Why can't people be called out from time to time? You are saying people can sit here and praise Kobe all they want and defend Kobe regardless of what he does on or off the court. But if someone wants to call a "Kobe Jocker" out and point out reasons why people need not be so biased towards Kobe just because he is their favorite player and therefore cannot do anything wrong is just plain censorship.
I think locking threads because they don't pertain to the purpose of this forum or if someone is personally attacking another member of the board is reasonable but because "Kobe Jockers" are getting called out is pretty dumb IMO.
This is Boston, we don't have to be so liberal and PC. |
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LA_Lakers_Rule
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Joined: 23 Aug 2004
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Location: The X-Files
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:09 am Post subject: |
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^^^ Tim.... As I posted I felt that you had not intended the post as it was taken but that because of the perhaps poor choice of words in your thread title it would not be interpreted in the way it was intended.
_________________
Rule = win titles
Good judgment comes from experience and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. - Will Rogers ...
Last edited by LA_Lakers_Rule on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Exick
Site Staff
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 15880
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:18 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In my defense, however, it seems as though when someone attempts to criticize, rather critique Kobe's game, they are labelled a Troll or a Hater. What is the difference betwee this type of callout or the Kobe Jocker callout? |
It isn't different. You can see an example of how it's not different by looking at the thread calling out "kobe haters" and see that it was also locked.
The bottom line is that if your argument/discussion starts off with coming up with derogatory nickname for people who might disagree with you, then it's safe to say the thread is probably going nowhere except back and forth with childish name-calling and will be locked.
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Game recognize game, Granddad. - Riley Freeman, The Boondocks |
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dangle
Star Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 1040
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| psydesho wrote: | To the OP -
Your point is well taken. Yet we must remember one word when evaluating Kobe - TALENT.
Not his talent. His teammates talent. What we are seeing is the Kobe from the 3peat years except he is wiser and more experienced and doesn't have a guy on the block "demanding" the ball.
This team is assembled around his talents like LeBron's Cav's, CP3's Hornets and Duncan's Spurs. Now we are able to see all the great things Kobe can do in a single game because his teammates are capable of capitalizing on the opportunities they have.
Gasol seemed to have a bad game yesterday visually yet had 18 points / 10 rebounds / ? assists and shot 60%. If Kwame ever had a game like that we would all be screaming that Kwame finally got it knowing damn well it was a fluke. With Gasol we get this nearly every night and if he really goes off like Game 1 the other team is truly screwed.
Fisher is a smart player who keeps his head in the game. We could never say these 2 things about Smush Parker and when your point guard (traditional role or other wise) is a head case the team is in trouble.
Sasha actually hits shots. Kobe has always set him up but until this year when he transformed into the Machine, he was the ultimate brick layer. This is bad because he never had a conscious and that meant we were gonna see 6-7 terrible shots from him nightly. 6-7 bad possessions every night from just one guy is nearly impossible to recover from.
Add into the mix Lamar finally being in his role for the team, Luke getting healthy and playing well, the addition of Vlad who is a threat whenever on the court, DJ/Turiaf giving us great back up minutes (since Mihm was injured and Bynum just not ready) and Farmar generally playing a well rounded game and what you have is a team and not just a superstar and some scrubs.
No longer are we watching Kobe coming into every game trying to figure out how the defense would attack him, but how he was going to have to beat it without much help from the other guys.
To see how effective he was going against double and triple teams, 3 or 4 defenders nightly and putting up the number he did and not running out of gas in the fourth like TMac is vs Jazz only grows my respect for his game and will to win.
I'm glad he doesn't have to exert that amount of energy nightly. I enjoy watching this team play. What I enjoy most is watching people who simply hate/hated him have all their excuses vaporized before their eyes and their consensus response be, "It's about time!".
They are right. It's about time they recognize his greatness. It's about time they let go of their love for false idols (Shaq) and realize this guy has always given every ounce he could for the Lakers Organization to win championships. It about time they enjoy what we may not see again for many, many years.
Live in the moment. Get on his jock. |
This just may be the single greatest post I have ever read explaining the Kobe of the first 3 post-Shaq years vs the Kobe of this year. Everyone who take the time to read it will be smarter for having read it. I award you 100 points for writing it, and may God bless your soul.
In other words, nice post! |
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