|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
venturalakersfan
Retired Number
Joined: 14 Apr 2001
Posts: 144626
Location: The Gold Coast
|
 Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is coorelation if you are comparing the two GMs who made the trades. And the Nazr trade wasn't better, without Grant, there was a chance the Lakers wouldn't have won a title with Madsen or Horry at PF.
_________________
RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
MikanJordan
Starting Rotation
Joined: 06 Aug 2001
Posts: 925
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It appears some posters are underrating the acquisition(s) of Horace Grant. We don't win the championship in 2001 wihout him. Period. Horry played critical minutes at the end of games, but, straight from the horse's mouth . . . . Both Duncan and Webber admitted that Horace tired them out with his physical defense, veteran "bump tricks," and the fact that he made them stay honest in trying to double to Shaq, b/c Horace could stick the short to midrange jumper.
Now, turning to the 2003-2004 season - - people also seem to forget that Horace was effective as a backup forward and a backup center. If we had had Horace healthy for the playoffs . . . we probably still beat Detroit because our interior defense would be solid. We were throwing Slava, Cook, etc. out there in the Finals. Think Horace would have slowed down Rasheed? Yeah, he would have. In 2001, Rasheed mentioned after the Lakers had swept the Blazers in the playoffs that Horace had baffled him on both offense and defense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A Mad Chinaman
Star Player
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Posts: 6211
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| laker4life wrote: | | Mitch's inability to extend that window is my main problem. During the 80s, West did it with the Lakers. During the 90s, Krause did it with the Bulls. During this decade, kupchak had a chance to do it with this team. But he didn't. But what has made kupchak look even worse was how he took a championship contending team and had us out of the playoffs in one year. |
Appreciate Dennis' well-researched analysis and agree with most of it.
Note
West had a "down time" between championships, the Bulls are still between championships, the Spurs are in the NBA Finals one year - not in every other year (for whatever reasons), etc.
IMO
Jerry Buss' highest priority is to win RINGS, just to make the playoffs is not enough. A great deal of information has been shared, but one comparision that has not been mentioned might be something to be considered - would you rather have the history of the Spurs or the Lakers?!?!
I agree that comparisons between Spurs and Lakers provide the most revealing analysis of how well the GMs are doing their job because they have won rings.
Also, Mitch had to placate the egos of PJ, Shaq and Kobe. Just one of them has a bigger ego than Duncan, Parker, Manu, etc. combined! In addition, the Lakers have players that were definitely better than what the Spurs have. For example
Would you rather have Duncan or Shaq - no brainer
Would you rather have Parker and/or Manu than Kobe - no brainer
Would you rather have Pop or Phil (who has won 9 rings) - no brainer
If Tim Duncan left the Spurs in the fashion of Shaq, they would still be in the playoffs. Any team with Shaq will suffer a severe down time - length will change with every GM.
Could Mitch have done better - YES.
Does Mitch have any margin of error - NO
Has Mitch missed on good players (like all GMs) - YES
Pop waited for Manu to come from Europe to become a star
Mitch is waiting for Bynum to develop to become a star
Next year, these things might happen that will change this conversation next year
** Bynum will play important 12 to 15 minutes creating plays similar to Diop (very real possibility)
** Turiaff will play 15 to 20+ minutes and bring a Magic Johnson-type of energy and love of the game to kick any Lakers' ASS when they are "floating" (Parker's analysis of Smush)
** LO will be so pissed that he "choked" during the last game that he will worked his ass off with a Kobe-like summer regiment that will allow him to continue being a "triple-threat" person that will always create mismatches similar to what KG does (inside/outside game), Dirk (outside/inside game), Rasheed (outside/inside game), etc.
** If Kwame continues with his improvement . . .
If any of these things happen, along with the Lakers getting an upgrade at PG (whether it is through the improvement of Sasha/Smush/Jim Jackson/trade) - Lakers will at least be in the Western Finals (IMO) - hey, maybe they can get Tony Delk who is doing nothing in Detroit but has provided many of the things the Lakers need in the past |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EHL_2
Star Player
Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 5330
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| venturalakersfan wrote: | | There is coorelation if you are comparing the two GMs who made the trades. And the Nazr trade wasn't better, without Grant, there was a chance the Lakers wouldn't have won a title with Madsen or Horry at PF. |
You think the Lakers might not have won the championship in 2001 when they were one 20 foot fade-away Iverson jumper away from sweeping the entire postseason? No, I'd have to say they would have done just as well. Not like Horry was old in 01, so he could have certainly played the minutes, and of course all Madsen would have had to do was be a defensive nuisance, that team wasn't lacking any scorers.
And it's not like they couldn't have picked up another PF in 01.
| MikanJordan wrote: | It appears some posters are underrating the acquisition(s) of Horace Grant. We don't win the championship in 2001 wihout him. Period. Horry played critical minutes at the end of games, but, straight from the horse's mouth . . . . Both Duncan and Webber admitted that Horace tired them out with his physical defense, veteran "bump tricks," and the fact that he made them stay honest in trying to double to Shaq, b/c Horace could stick the short to midrange jumper.
Now, turning to the 2003-2004 season - - people also seem to forget that Horace was effective as a backup forward and a backup center. If we had had Horace healthy for the playoffs . . . we probably still beat Detroit because our interior defense would be solid. We were throwing Slava, Cook, etc. out there in the Finals. Think Horace would have slowed down Rasheed? Yeah, he would have. In 2001, Rasheed mentioned after the Lakers had swept the Blazers in the playoffs that Horace had baffled him on both offense and defense. |
I'm sorry but no way does Horace Grant mean the difference between 3 series sweeps + 4-1 Finals victory and not winning the title at all in 01. I find that a bit absurd.
And he certainly didn't mean the difference beteween a 1-4 loss to Detroit and a championship. The Lakers did not lose the 04 Finals because of Malone's MCL or Grant's hip; remember that Malone wasn't at all effective in Game 2 and that was the Lakers' only victory in the Finals. Fact is the Lakers were old, slow, and simply did not have the length or athleticism defensively to defend the basket or keep up with them on the break. Malone doesn't change any of that, and certainly 38 year old Horace Grant would have no chance in hell of making the difference athleticially. Even in 01, Grant averaged just 6 and 6 on 38.5% shooting. His defense was not so good that it would mean the difference in that year's title outcome. Not THAT year, 15-1 and all. Shaq and Kobe would have found a way.
That's not to say that Horace wasn't a nice piece to have. Just not the difference in a championship.
Last edited by EHL_2 on Fri May 26, 2006 11:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EHL_2
Star Player
Joined: 09 May 2006
Posts: 5330
|
| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dp |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laker4life
Star Player
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7325
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Appreciate Dennis' well-researched analysis and agree with most of it. |
I do appreciate it too.
| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | Note
West had a "down time" between championships, the Bulls are still between championships, the Spurs are in the NBA Finals one year - not in every other year (for whatever reasons), etc.
|
I understand downtime. This is not downtime. We rebuilding not reloading. We should have been reloading during this phase.
| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | Note
IMO
Jerry Buss' highest priority is to win RINGS, just to make the playoffs is not enough. A great deal of information has been shared, but one comparision that has not been mentioned might be something to be considered - would you rather have the history of the Spurs or the Lakers?!?!
|
IMO, that is everyone's plan and goal. To win a rings. Celtics, Maloofs, Cuban, Dolans, Suns, Spurs, Pacer (Larry Bird), Pistons, Heats, etc.
I understand that it is Buss's priority but that is no different from the majority of the other teams. The Lakers have made shrewd moves over the last twenty years that have helped us stay on top. We must continue to make such moves. Unfortunately, Kupchak has not proved to be as astute yet. In fact, his moves have not panned out.
| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | I agree that comparisons between Spurs and Lakers provide the most revealing analysis of how well the GMs are doing their job because they have won rings.
|
Not just Spurs but other teams too.
| A Mad Chinaman wrote: |
Next year, these things might happen that will change this conversation next year
** Bynum will play important 12 to 15 minutes creating plays similar to Diop (very real possibility)
** Turiaff will play 15 to 20+ minutes and bring a Magic Johnson-type of energy and love of the game to kick any Lakers' ASS when they are "floating" (Parker's analysis of Smush)
** LO will be so pissed that he "choked" during the last game that he will worked his ass off with a Kobe-like summer regiment that will allow him to continue being a "triple-threat" person that will always create mismatches similar to what KG does (inside/outside game), Dirk (outside/inside game), Rasheed (outside/inside game), etc.
** If Kwame continues with his improvement . . .
If any of these things happen, along with the Lakers getting an upgrade at PG (whether it is through the improvement of Sasha/Smush/Jim Jackson/trade) - Lakers will at least be in the Western Finals (IMO)
|
Time will tell if you are right. However, what happens if they don't end up in the WCF. Then what. Are you going to post the same thing next year. If this ... . If that .... What you fail to realize that is another prime year of KB will be for naught.
I am not that confident that these players will step up. I hope that I am wrong. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
Average time to turn around a Championship team to win another Championship is 17 years.
West did it the fastest in 12 years.
Kupchak is 2 seasons removed from our loss to Detroit and the begining of the rebuilding. He made calculated gambles -
Turned over the oldest roster to the 3rd youngest.
Kept Kobe over Shaq when it was EXTREMELY unpopular to do so.
Rehired Phil after Phil's book.
Hired Kareem when NO ONE ELSE WANTED HIM
Shaq for LO and Kwame (through Caron)
Payton and Fox for Mihm
Bynum with the 10 and Turiaf with the 37 - great picks
Also has many young players who fit the triangle - Walton, Cook, Sasha who have all improved.
Found Smush for nothing.
And he has preserved Cap space for 2008.
And they were a rebound away from round 2 (with a good shot to beat the Clips to go the the WCF). They are a defensive PG (and another year of development of their bigs) away from contending right now.
I actually think he has done a great job. And so does Buss, the greatest owner in sports for the last 25 years. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
West did it from scratch without a franchise player.
Kupchak has one.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
magic_bryant
Franchise Player
Joined: 16 Oct 2002
Posts: 18179
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | West did it from scratch without a franchise player.
Kupchak has one. |
Kupchak tries to do it without a brain.
West has one.
_________________
Stephon Marbury on Kobe: "He's the only person on 'dis earth that can do 'dat. He guards people, like shuts 'em down. Then, to do 'dat on 'da offensive end. It's like 'Damn, I can't score on him AND he about to bust my ass." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laker4life
Star Player
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7325
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| magic_bryant wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | West did it from scratch without a franchise player.
Kupchak has one. |
Kupchak tries to do it without a brain.
West has one. |
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraveHeartII
Star Player
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1848
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | West did it from scratch without a franchise player.
Kupchak has one. |
But it still took West four years AFTER acquiring that franchise player to win one, if you want to be fair and give both the same starting point. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BraveHeartII
Star Player
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 1848
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| EHL_2 wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | There is coorelation if you are comparing the two GMs who made the trades. And the Nazr trade wasn't better, without Grant, there was a chance the Lakers wouldn't have won a title with Madsen or Horry at PF. |
You think the Lakers might not have won the championship in 2001 when they were one 20 foot fade-away Iverson jumper away from sweeping the entire postseason? No, I'd have to say they would have done just as well. Not like Horry was old in 01, so he could have certainly played the minutes, and of course all Madsen would have had to do was be a defensive nuisance, that team wasn't lacking any scorers.
And it's not like they couldn't have picked up another PF in 01.
| MikanJordan wrote: | It appears some posters are underrating the acquisition(s) of Horace Grant. We don't win the championship in 2001 wihout him. Period. Horry played critical minutes at the end of games, but, straight from the horse's mouth . . . . Both Duncan and Webber admitted that Horace tired them out with his physical defense, veteran "bump tricks," and the fact that he made them stay honest in trying to double to Shaq, b/c Horace could stick the short to midrange jumper.
Now, turning to the 2003-2004 season - - people also seem to forget that Horace was effective as a backup forward and a backup center. If we had had Horace healthy for the playoffs . . . we probably still beat Detroit because our interior defense would be solid. We were throwing Slava, Cook, etc. out there in the Finals. Think Horace would have slowed down Rasheed? Yeah, he would have. In 2001, Rasheed mentioned after the Lakers had swept the Blazers in the playoffs that Horace had baffled him on both offense and defense. |
I'm sorry but no way does Horace Grant mean the difference between 3 series sweeps + 4-1 Finals victory and not winning the title at all in 01. I find that a bit absurd.
And he certainly didn't mean the difference beteween a 1-4 loss to Detroit and a championship. The Lakers did not lose the 04 Finals because of Malone's MCL or Grant's hip; remember that Malone wasn't at all effective in Game 2 and that was the Lakers' only victory in the Finals. Fact is the Lakers were old, slow, and simply did not have the length or athleticism defensively to defend the basket or keep up with them on the break. Malone doesn't change any of that, and certainly 38 year old Horace Grant would have no chance in hell of making the difference athleticially. Even in 01, Grant averaged just 6 and 6 on 38.5% shooting. His defense was not so good that it would mean the difference in that year's title outcome. Not THAT year, 15-1 and all. Shaq and Kobe would have found a way.
That's not to say that Horace wasn't a nice piece to have. Just not the difference in a championship. |
Ever heard of the phrase, a team is never as bad as it looks when it loses, and never as good as it looks when it wins? After we won the first two games, it took away the Spurs spirit, knowing that the next two are on the road.
Without Grant, we most likely wouldn't have had the confidence that we had in defending Duncan and most likely would have split, and who knows what could have happened, with Horry battling Duncan alone. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jlkr42
Starting Rotation
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 845
Location: DVNH
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I keep repeating myself, but I'll say it again. What Mitch is trying to do is dang hard: get back to the Finals within 5 years after losing a major superstar. In fact, this is so difficult, it has only been done by two franchises before and neither one is the Lakers. If it was that easy for all you armchair GMs, it would have been done more often.
Both of those franchises have at least one advantage over the Lakers: they had at least one HOF'er front-line player that the team was built around. Mitch is trying to do something that's never been done before: return to the Finals with a team built around an SG.
Sure mistakes have been made. But if someone's going to say Mitch blew it with his picks, well consider that every other GM in the league has missed some in the draft. Including the great Logo. If someone's going to say he blew it on the FA signings, OK I'm down with that. Smuch Parker doesn't quite make up for McKie and Divac yet. If someone's going to say he blew it on the trades, the jury is still out on that one, but on the whole, Mitch has brought the Lakers back to within 1 or 2 players of real contention. That's not bad.
Essentially the trade was aging Shaq, retiring Fox, cancer Payton, lazy Rush, own 06 1st in exchange for Odom, Mihm, Brown, Profit, Turiaf, Miami 06 1st and Charlotte 07 2nd plus $30m in lux tax relief. I call that good... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mike@LG
Moderator
Joined: 10 Apr 2001
Posts: 65135
Location: Orange County, CA
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| BraveHeartII wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | West did it from scratch without a franchise player.
Kupchak has one. |
But it still took West four years AFTER acquiring that franchise player to win one, if you want to be fair and give both the same starting point. |
True, but he was busy acquiring future All-Stars through draft.
_________________
Resident Car Nut.
https://lakersdraft.substack.com/
I am not an economic advisor nor do I advise economic strategies or plans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laker4life
Star Player
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7325
|
| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | | BraveHeartII wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | West did it from scratch without a franchise player.
Kupchak has one. |
But it still took West four years AFTER acquiring that franchise player to win one, if you want to be fair and give both the same starting point. |
True, but he was busy acquiring future All-Stars through draft. |
You're right. Kupcake had an opportunity to use the trade of Shaq to get "future all-star" . Time will tell if either Odom, Kwame or Bynum will turn into a future all star. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dennis_D
LG Contributor
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2017
Location: North Dallas
|
| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 5:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| laker4life wrote: | | Mike@LG wrote: | My thing about Buford that made it distinct between Kupchak and Buford.
'99 Won championship
Kupchak wins 3. Loses championship window.
'06, Spurs still in contention. Window lasts as long as Ginobili, Parker, and Duncan are still on the team. All of them just started peaking. From swept/blown out in 2001 to continually being a top 4 team every year including the playoffs.
That says a lot.
The whole point was to extend the championship window. |
That has been my point from DAY ONE!!!!!! |
So, you are saying that you had already made up your mind that Kupchak was doing a bad job on the day he started?
| laker4life wrote: | | Mitch's inability to extend that window is my main problem. During the 80s, West did it with the Lakers. During the 90s, Krause did it with the Bulls. During this decade, kupchak had a chance to do it with this team. But he didn't. |
First off, I don't think Krause extended the window for the Bulls - once Michael and Pippen left, it was all over.
Secondly, Buford hasn't extended the Spurs' window either, which was the whole point of the post. If you think Mitch did a bad job during the contending years, then you have to think Buford is doing a bad job for the Spurs. Do you think Buford is doing a bad job for the Spurs?
| laker4life wrote: | | But what has made kupchak look even worse was how he took a championship contending team and had us out of the playoffs in one year. |
OK, what do you mean by this? Are you saying that you are surprised that the oldest team in NBA history would go from losing in the NBA Finals to out of the playoffs? Your good buddy Krause took the '97-'98 NBA Champions to a 13-37 record the next season (and a 17-65 record the season after).
_________________
<-- My avatar is Margaret Nolan from one of the Carry On films. She was the girl who got painted gold in "Goldfinger". Thanks to CaliRyderX for identifying her. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dennis_D
LG Contributor
Joined: 12 Apr 2001
Posts: 2017
Location: North Dallas
|
| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| EHL_2 wrote: | Explain to me how the following are steals of Kupchak's:
1) losing Rice and a #1 for a one year rental of Horace Grant. |
Did you read the post? Anyways, I think you need a bit of a history lesson. From another post of yours:
| EHL_2 wrote: | You think the Lakers might not have won the championship in 2001 when they were one 20 foot fade-away Iverson jumper away from sweeping the entire postseason? No, I'd have to say they would have done just as well. Not like Horry was old in 01, so he could have certainly played the minutes, and of course all Madsen would have had to do was be a defensive nuisance, that team wasn't lacking any scorers.
And it's not like they couldn't have picked up another PF in 01. |
How close did the Lakers come to not winning the championship the prior season? They had to go to a game 5 (out of 5) to win against the Kings and it took a Portland collapse in the fourth quarter of game 7 for the Lakers to advance to the NBA Finals. The next season, the only significant personnel change was adding Horace Grant and the Lakers had the greatest playoff run over. But you think that Horace wasn't a significant contributor.
Horry had bad knees by the '00-'01 season and was particularly bothered by playing on floors over hockey ice. Playing extended regular season minutes would wear Horry out. That is why they needed a PF who could play extended minutes. Grant played the third most minutes on the team and let Horry play essentially the same minutes as the prior season. The three teams the Lakers met before the NBA Finals all had All-Star caliber PF's and the Lakers swept them all. But you think that Horace at PF wasn't a significant contributor.
The next season, without Horace Grant but with Samaki Walker, the Lakers barely made it into the NBA Finals, having to win Game 7 in Sacramento. But you think that Horace wasn't a significant contributor.
Anyways, back to why I think getting Grant was a steal and get Nazr was break even - the big difference was what was traded. If you had read the original post, you would know that what Kupchak traded was Rice, who "was about to exercise his option to get out of his contract and Travis Knight was a total waste with 3 years, $10.8 million to go on his contract (he would play one more NBA game)" in addition to a #27 pick. That is a no value player, a negative value player and a near useless pick for a player that helped the Lakers totally dominate in the playoffs (and another player who would be traded later). Nazr was acquired for a player who had put up similar numbers and was signed for longer PLUS two conditional first round picks. Don't get me wrong - it was a stupid trade for the Knicks to give up a C to acquire yet another overpaid, undersized PF, but it wasn't a trade-nothing-for-something deal like the Grant trade was.
| EHL_2 wrote: | | 2) Hunter for Murray (didn't do jack). |
Sigh. The trade was Hunter for the Lakers to move up 7 positions in the draft.
| EHL_2 wrote: | | While Buford dumping a long contract in Malik for a 12/9 center in Nazr with a shorter, smaller contract while also being 3 years younger is considered "breaking even". |
See above.
| EHL_2 wrote: | | Doesn't pass the smell test. Btw, not giving Buford the credit for Finley is not comparable to not giving Kupchak credit for Malone/Payton. Malone and Payton agreed completely independent of Kupchak to take paycuts. Buford actively pursued Finley, who was being actively courted by the Heat. |
The only reason Finley was available was the one-time Allan Houston rule. Given that Finley was already getting paid $51 million, all he was interested in was a ring. Given that the Spurs were the champions and they were geographically much closer to Finley's home in Dallas, I think it wasn't much of a sale.
| EHL_2 wrote: | | Also, Barry, Horry, and Nazr are better than any three Kupchak tranasctions. |
Kupchak got players who started for the Lakers and Buford got bench players who played longer for the Spurs.
| EHL_2 wrote: | | All he's got is Mihm and....what else? And he wouldn't have pulled off the Mihm deal had the Payton/Malone miracle never happened. |
Gee, who about everyone on the roster except Kobe and Devean? Second youngest team in the NBA for most of the season, but took the #2 seed to seven game.
_________________
<-- My avatar is Margaret Nolan from one of the Carry On films. She was the girl who got painted gold in "Goldfinger". Thanks to CaliRyderX for identifying her. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laker4life
Star Player
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 7325
|
| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Dennis_D wrote: |
| laker4life wrote: | | Mitch's inability to extend that window is my main problem. During the 80s, West did it with the Lakers. During the 90s, Krause did it with the Bulls. During this decade, kupchak had a chance to do it with this team. But he didn't. |
First off, I don't think Krause extended the window for the Bulls - once Michael and Pippen left, it was all over.
Secondly, Buford hasn't extended the Spurs' window either, which was the whole point of the post. If you think Mitch did a bad job during the contending years, then you have to think Buford is doing a bad job for the Spurs. Do you think Buford is doing a bad job for the Spurs?
|
He extended the window with Rodman and Brian William. These little parts make the difference between winning and losing.
In the 1980s, West traded Nixon for B. Scott. People were upset and mad.
Watch game 6 of the 1987-88 final between the Pistons and Lakers. Lakers are down 3-2. Down by 3 in the last minute. Who made the shot to bring the league to one. Bryan Scott. Jabbar made the last two but Scott shot was very important.
That is what I mean by extending. West made moves (ie. draft AC Green & trade Scot) to allow us to win back to back.
After we lost to Piston, Kupcake dismantled the team. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
|
| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Mike@LG wrote: | West did it from scratch without a franchise player.
Kupchak has one. |
I said "West did it the fastest in 12 years"
Let me elaborate. No one in the Hisory of the National Basketball Association completed the turnaround of a Championship team and the rebuilding of a roster in less than 12 years. EVER. Not just West, but all of the other great GMs who ever strolled the sidelines, and all of the franchise players they may or may not have had.
Yes Kupchak has Kobe. But he has Kobe because he negotiated a Free Agent contract that Kobe signed. Damn near every other GM in the League would have kept Shaq, paid him 20 - 25 MILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR, and lost Kobe in the process. So give Mitch some credit for making the right move when EVERY CRITIC form coast to coast thought he was an idiot for doing so. And with the looming departure of Devean George, Mitch has completed the turnaround with ONLY Kobe remaining.
Mike, I know you hate Kupchak, but we have discussed this enough times that I hope, as a Lakers fan, you can start to see some light at the end of the tunnel. I sincerely believe that this off season, and the teams performance next year will put this entire discussion to bed, and that Mitch will put a very good team on the court next year.
Not that he will get any credit for it. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JerryMagicKobe
Moderator
Joined: 28 Jul 2005
Posts: 15100
|
| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| laker4life wrote: | | Dennis_D wrote: |
| laker4life wrote: | | Mitch's inability to extend that window is my main problem. During the 80s, West did it with the Lakers. During the 90s, Krause did it with the Bulls. During this decade, kupchak had a chance to do it with this team. But he didn't. |
First off, I don't think Krause extended the window for the Bulls - once Michael and Pippen left, it was all over.
Secondly, Buford hasn't extended the Spurs' window either, which was the whole point of the post. If you think Mitch did a bad job during the contending years, then you have to think Buford is doing a bad job for the Spurs. Do you think Buford is doing a bad job for the Spurs?
|
He extended the window with Rodman and Brian William. These little parts make the difference between winning and losing.
In the 1980s, West traded Nixon for B. Scott. People were upset and mad.
Watch game 6 of the 1987-88 final between the Pistons and Lakers. Lakers are down 3-2. Down by 3 in the last minute. Who made the shot to bring the league to one. Bryan Scott. Jabbar made the last two but Scott shot was very important.
That is what I mean by extending. West made moves (ie. draft AC Green & trade Scot) to allow us to win back to back.
After we lost to Piston, Kupchak dismantled the team. |
Dude, who from that team should he have kept?
GP? I'll take Mihm instaed
Malone? Never played again
Fox? Never played again
Fisher? $6,000,000 for 6 years
Grant? Never played again
Horry? Great specialist, but not on a young rebuilding team
Shaq? I'd rather have Kobe, Odom and Kwame, and that was the choice.
Thank GOD he dismantled that relic. It was over. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
