I love the lin/davis combo and I hope lin/davis/randle are our building blocks post kobe. However I dont think Lin starting with Kobe is a great idea. They both need the ball.
Kobe already said publicly that he doesn't want to handle the ball as much anymore... if you want kobe to last the whole season, you don't want him to handle the ball as much... except the 4th quarter.
Its already been stated in several articles as well as watching the highlights that Lin and Davis have some chemistry running the p&r. I haven't seen any full games yet but do they call the p&r only for Davis, or other players like Hill, Boozer and Randal but they're just not as good at it.
i've seen the p&r done by boozer and hill also, mostly with price since price has gotten more reps with the starters.
i think a boozer and lin pick and roll/pop would be as lethal as the lin/davis combo since boozer has the option to fade out for an open medium range jumper or is adept enough to finish when he rolls to the basket. this will leave opponents guessing as to how best to defend it. but lin has to get more time with the starters so that they can develop the chemistry
Lin/Davis works better when the other team does not have a fast shot blocker , rim protector. Lin/Boozer will work better against those teams because Boozer will drag the shot blocker away from the basket more to defend his midrange game. So against the Clippers, Oklahoma, Houston, New Orleans Lin/Boozer might be better fit.
Can't wait to see the Lin/Davis combo do their thing again tonight.
Jeremy Lin has consistently attacked and gotten into the heart of the opposing defense.
Big Ed Davis is our most reliable rim protector and finishes well at the rim (78% FG).
Ronnie Price has been a pleasant surprise too.
Ed Davis hasn't just been OUR most reliable rim protector and finisher, he's been the best of both those categories in the entire NBA this preseason. _________________ You are either in or on your way to the NBA Finals.
Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:22 pm Post subject: The care and feeding of Linsanity
After watching the preseason, I think we’re going to need a little Linsanity just to field a competitive team. So I’m going to talk about the original Linsanity team, and what I think the 2014-15 Lakers need to get there.
I’ve watched Lin for several years and although the 2011-12 Knicks were characterized as “Lin+scrubs”, you know that is an unfair characterization. That Knicks team was a carefully constructed team that just needed a PG to make it work. Here is what I think is needed for a little Linsanity to happen:
* Elite Pick&Roll PG
* Elite Pick&Roll Big (Tyson Chandler)
* Elite 3pt shooter(s) (Novak)
* Elite Rim Protection (Tyson Chandler)
* Elite Perimeter Defense (Shumpert)
* Solid Screens set by all members of the team (Chandler,Jefferies,Stoudemire,Fields)
* No ball hog (no Melo)
You may recall Stephen A. Smith calling Lin an “average player”. As a Lin fan I can see where he got that. Lin is pretty average (though getting better) in a lot of basketball skill like his handles, shooting, defense, etc. Last year he hit 36% from the 3pt line, which is league average. But there is one basketball skill where he has been elite statistically since the Linsanity days: as a Pick&Roll ball handler.
But an elite P&R PG can’t do it alone. Not only does he need an elite P&R Big to play the two man game, he needs chemistry with that big.
Why didn’t Linsanity happen in Houston for Lin?
Stats show that last year the Houston Rockets ran the P&R the least amount by far of any NBA team. On top of that, Harden was mostly the ball handler, so often Lin would be used as an (average) 3pt shooter spotting up in the corner. So the Rockets paid $8.3m/yr for an elite P&R ball handler (with no other elite skill) and then didn’t run may P&R plays for him.
And even when the Rockets did run the P&R for Lin, I’d argue that he wasn’t paired up with an elite P&R big. Omer Asik sets decent screens, but is not good at catching and finishing. Dwight Howard is an excellent roll man, but sets lousy screens. At times Howard also seemed reluctant to set screens, preferring to get the ball in the post instead.
If you look up Ed Davis stats last year, he was 95th percentile as a pick&roll roll man. That’s elite. Somehow, the Lakers ended up with an elite P&R PG and C and all indications are that they have pretty good chemistry. Lin & Davis definitely make each other look better. You need an elite P&R big to show off what an elite P&R PG can do. If Davis was not on the team, Lin would not look anywhere near as good (and vice versa).
All this talk of Ronnie Price starting is just crazy. You can’t believe everything you hear from head coaches, because a lot of what they say is posturing and what they want other teams to hear. But a single stat like defense is not all that matters. What’s important is overall plus/minus in offense/defense, and Lin clearly wins there. Without Lin & Davis on the floor, the team basically looks like Kobe+scrubs, and it’s going to be a long year if we start Ronnie Price.
If Scott is looking at overall basketball impact, and his team is a meritocracy, then I think the Lakers will have no choice but to play Lin & Davis 40+ minutes a game. Not only for the P&R, but because we seem to have no other rim protector than Davis. Though Davis looks awesome so far, my concern is that he’s a little bit undersized for a C, and since he’s never played starter minutes it’s unclear if he can take the punishment day in and day out.
My last point is how Lin interacts with the main star of the team. On the Knicks, Melo chaffed under the P&R. MDA wanted him to be more of a screener and spot up shooter and Melo demanded the ball more. Melo would get visibly frustrated on court when he’d try to post up and end up not getting the ball. Ultimately Melo was the reason both Lin & MDA left the team.
On the Rockets, Lin was not the primary ball handler. You got a glimpse of Linsanity when Harden was out (38 pts vs the Spurs), but mostly the Rockets did not run much P&R for Lin. When Dwight joined the team I was hopeful that Lin would run the P&R more, but it turned out that Dwight was just another ball hog that preferred posting up to setting screens.
So far Lin + Kobe give me a much better vibe. In the preseason Kobe seems happy to have Lin handle the ball. When they are both on the floor I detect some synergy as they both draw defensive attention from the other. Kobe seem both complimentary and appreciative to have Lin on the team. In the 4th quarter of the first Suns game Kobe and Lin were definitely working together to make up the deficit. For whatever reason, Kobe is not a ball hog when Lin is beside him, and it looks like he will enhance any Linsanity that happens.
My prescription for some Linsanity going forward:
* Heavy P&R action until we get more triangle sets working
* All the minutes Lin & Davis can handle
* Until Swaggy gets better, one of Kobe or Lin at all times on the floor.
* Hill/Randle to set better screens so they can be viable P&R targets. If Randle can set good screens, he’d be a monster with his finishing ability
* Pick&Pop with Boozer/Sacre
* We get a backup P&R PG, or Ronnie Price gets better at P&R, or both
* Johnson/Ellington to be 3 & D guys and not try to handle the ball.
Thanks for a nice write up KobesRevenge. I was thinking about Asik vs Davis a bit, I also think Davis is better in PNR as he is faster. He is also a believer in PNR. Lin said that Davis would set the screen time and again regardless of whether he get the feed. He just want to let Lin be open and run thre PNR.
I have not seen much of Lin and Kobe in action. Glad that you feel they have a god synergy. From the interviews, Kobe definitely is complimentary and appreciative of Lin. I think Kobe has matured as he aged. He began to see his limits at this age, accept it but optimize on what he can do with what he have. I think he will be more than happy to let Lin handle the ball quite a bit. He once said, I am not hell bent on playing, but I am hell bent on winning. I believe he will do whatever he can to optimize this team's achiement _________________ "We have a lot of guys that have been kinda discarded ... Myself with the injury and the age. Jeremy ... a bunch of players who other teams really felt they had no use for. So we have that kind of attitude built into ourselves" -- Kobe Bryant
Thanks for a nice write up KobesRevenge. I was thinking about Asik vs Davis a bit, I also think Davis is better in PNR as he is faster. He is also a believer in PNR. Lin said that Davis would set the screen time and again regardless of whether he get the feed. He just want to let Lin be open and run thre PNR.
Asik was a trooper, he tried by setting proper screens. Lin's comment about Davis being willing to set screens 20 times in a row (without getting the ball) without complaining is an indirect (and probably unintentional) dig at Howard. Howard needed the ball.
cheesysapien wrote:
I have not seen much of Lin and Kobe in action. Glad that you feel they have a god synergy. From the interviews, Kobe definitely is complimentary and appreciative of Lin. I think Kobe has matured as he aged. He began to see his limits at this age, accept it but optimize on what he can do with what he have. I think he will be more than happy to let Lin handle the ball quite a bit. He once said, I am not hell bent on playing, but I am hell bent on winning. I believe he will do whatever he can to optimize this team's achiement
Check out the 4th quarter of the first preaseason game vs the Suns. Lin and Kobe both were scoring heavily in that quarter. Lin mostly handled the ball and you could see them drawing defensive attention from each other. When Kobe has the ball, you have to think twice about doubling him, because Lin is just one pass away. Same situation if Lin has the ball and Kobe is one pass away. I really felt the two working together to come back from a deficit. Much better synergy than Lin/Melo and Lin/Harden.
I also don't like the concept of putting Lin on the second team because "the second unit needs a distributor". Hogwash. If you split Lin and Kobe, both will end up getting double teamed all the time. Also, without Lin, the 1st unit needs a distributor. Kobe is a distributor, but a weak one, which is why you get so much offensive stagnation with a Linless 1st unit. You need to put the best product on the floor as the 1st unit and let the bench fend for itself. You can also try to stagger Lin and Kobe's minutes so one of them is on the floor at all times. Hopefully the bench will be better when Swaggy returns.
Joined: 14 Apr 2001 Posts: 144475 Location: The Gold Coast
Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:31 pm Post subject:
cheesysapien wrote:
Thanks for a nice write up KobesRevenge. I was thinking about Asik vs Davis a bit, I also think Davis is better in PNR as he is faster. He is also a believer in PNR. Lin said that Davis would set the screen time and again regardless of whether he get the feed. He just want to let Lin be open and run thre PNR.
I have not seen much of Lin and Kobe in action. Glad that you feel they have a god synergy. From the interviews, Kobe definitely is complimentary and appreciative of Lin. I think Kobe has matured as he aged. He began to see his limits at this age, accept it but optimize on what he can do with what he have. I think he will be more than happy to let Lin handle the ball quite a bit. He once said, I am not hell bent on playing, but I am hell bent on winning. I believe he will do whatever he can to optimize this team's achiement
I think that Kobe will learn his spots on the floor next to Lin and be a double threat from them. When Lin penetrates and draws the defense he can dish to Kobe, who can then either shoot the ball or rotate it if the defense rotates. I think they will work it out. And I want to say it was the same game you referenced, but late in the 4th when Kobe was putting in jumpers, Lin reacted well and went to the arc in case Kobe kicked it back out to him. _________________ RIP mom. 11-21-1933 to 6-14-2023.
Thanks for a nice write up KobesRevenge. I was thinking about Asik vs Davis a bit, I also think Davis is better in PNR as he is faster. He is also a believer in PNR. Lin said that Davis would set the screen time and again regardless of whether he get the feed. He just want to let Lin be open and run thre PNR.
Asik was a trooper, he tried by setting proper screens. Lin's comment about Davis being willing to set screens 20 times in a row (without getting the ball) without complaining is an indirect (and probably unintentional) dig at Howard. Howard needed the ball.
cheesysapien wrote:
I have not seen much of Lin and Kobe in action. Glad that you feel they have a god synergy. From the interviews, Kobe definitely is complimentary and appreciative of Lin. I think Kobe has matured as he aged. He began to see his limits at this age, accept it but optimize on what he can do with what he have. I think he will be more than happy to let Lin handle the ball quite a bit. He once said, I am not hell bent on playing, but I am hell bent on winning. I believe he will do whatever he can to optimize this team's achiement
Check out the 4th quarter of the first preaseason game vs the Suns. Lin and Kobe both were scoring heavily in that quarter. Lin mostly handled the ball and you could see them drawing defensive attention from each other. When Kobe has the ball, you have to think twice about doubling him, because Lin is just one pass away. Same situation if Lin has the ball and Kobe is one pass away. I really felt the two working together to come back from a deficit. Much better synergy than Lin/Melo and Lin/Harden.
I also don't like the concept of putting Lin on the second team because "the second unit needs a distributor". Hogwash. If you split Lin and Kobe, both will end up getting double teamed all the time. Also, without Lin, the 1st unit needs a distributor. Kobe is a distributor, but a weak one, which is why you get so much offensive stagnation with a Linless 1st unit. You need to put the best product on the floor as the 1st unit and let the bench fend for itself. You can also try to stagger Lin and Kobe's minutes so one of them is on the floor at all times. Hopefully the bench will be better when Swaggy returns.
But all these advantages for Lin starting (playing with Kobe) are all about offense while people said Byron only cares about is defense. So there is no surprise that Byron may prefer to start Price since he sees that Price is an elite defender.
We shall see how it turns out when Price becomes healthy and starts.
I think that Kobe will learn his spots on the floor next to Lin and be a double threat from them. When Lin penetrates and draws the defense he can dish to Kobe, who can then either shoot the ball or rotate it if the defense rotates. I think they will work it out. And I want to say it was the same game you referenced, but late in the 4th when Kobe was putting in jumpers, Lin reacted well and went to the arc in case Kobe kicked it back out to him.
Yeah I saw that too. Lin is a threat at the top of the arc so I felt like Kobe's defenders needed to hedge a little when doubling. Price is not as much of a threat. Also, in the first game against the Nuggets, Lin was doubled immediately and it forced the ball into Clarkson's hands. This was a great strategy as Clarkson went 3 for 13. They're not going to double Lin as much if Kobe is on the floor.
At the end of the Suns game Kobe went ISO for the last couple minutes of regulation. I thought this was the perfect amount. If he goes ISO too much at the end of the game, eventually the defense figures out how to stop him. He hit a handful of fallaways in a row to end the game, but when the game went unexpectedly into overtime, he started missing. 2 minutes of ISO Kobe to end the game is fine, 5 minutes is too much. With Lin in the game, Kobe doesn't need to ISO as much, and our offense looks better.
I think this was the game where Kobe said, "Lin makes a big difference". Kobe had just played a few games with Price by his side. What could this mean except that the game is much easier for Kobe when Lin is next to him?
Lin and Kobe are the only ones on the team right now that put pressure on the defense and distribute. I've never seen a team with only two players like that split them up on the first and second units. If you have three such players (like OKC with Westbrook/Harden/Durant) then maybe you can put one of them on the second team, but even then all three usually close games.
But all these advantages for Lin starting (playing with Kobe) are all about offense while people said Byron only cares about is defense. So there is no surprise that Byron may prefer to start Price since he sees that Price is an elite defender.
We shall see how it turns out when Price becomes healthy and starts.
I understand Byron's point but I don't agree because:
* First, it's not clear that Price is a better defender than Lin. I'm not sure the stats bear this out. Price looks like a better man defender, but Lin is a very good team defender. This is why Lin's defensive stats look good, even though he's obviously not as good man to man. Also, NBA level defensive systems set good screens, which negate some of that man to man defensive advantage. Yeah, Lin gets beat sometimes, but then again so does Price.
* Second, even if Price is a better defender, the important thing is the overall plus/minus between offence and defense. Is Price so much a better defender that he makes up for his lack of offense? Price shot 21% from the 3 last year. Lin shot 36% from the 3. A winning defensive strategy against Price would be to force him to shoot 3's as often as possible.
* Third, although Byron talks tough about defense, the teams he coaches tend to have really bad defense. Kyrie Irving has worse defense than Lin, and yet Byron seemed to have no problem playing Kyrie as many minutes as he could handle. Sure, defense is important, but why suddenly focus on it now, with Lin, when Lin's defense really isn't that bad?
In any case, both Price and Hill seem to be slightly injured, so it looks like the seas have parted, and suddenly we're going to get to the Lin/Davis P&R promised land - at least for now. Hopefully, it all works so well that we don't have to discuss Price/Hill starting again
And even though I'm a Lin/Davis fan, and from my lengthy posts you can see the thought of Price/Hill starting really annoys me, I'm not really too worried about Lin/Davis not starting. Because if Byron really wants to win - and he's not completely blind - the results of starting Price/Hill will be so bad that he'll have no choice but to start Lin/Davis eventually.
Joined: 23 Jun 2005 Posts: 8488 Location: The (real) short corner
Posted: Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:40 am Post subject:
I didn't see Byron mention anything about Davis starting. I'm guessing he may go with Sacre against Dwight if Hill can't play.
While I agree that Davis will have a tough time keeping the bigger centers out of the paint, going with your third string instead of forcing the other team to play your game is probably not the right way to go.
But all these advantages for Lin starting (playing with Kobe) are all about offense while people said Byron only cares about is defense. So there is no surprise that Byron may prefer to start Price since he sees that Price is an elite defender.
We shall see how it turns out when Price becomes healthy and starts.
I understand Byron's point but I don't agree because:
* First, it's not clear that Price is a better defender than Lin. I'm not sure the stats bear this out. Price looks like a better man defender, but Lin is a very good team defender. This is why Lin's defensive stats look good, even though he's obviously not as good man to man. Also, NBA level defensive systems set good screens, which negate some of that man to man defensive advantage. Yeah, Lin gets beat sometimes, but then again so does Price.
* Second, even if Price is a better defender, the important thing is the overall plus/minus between offence and defense. Is Price so much a better defender that he makes up for his lack of offense? Price shot 21% from the 3 last year. Lin shot 36% from the 3. A winning defensive strategy against Price would be to force him to shoot 3's as often as possible.
* Third, although Byron talks tough about defense, the teams he coaches tend to have really bad defense. Kyrie Irving has worse defense than Lin, and yet Byron seemed to have no problem playing Kyrie as many minutes as he could handle. Sure, defense is important, but why suddenly focus on it now, with Lin, when Lin's defense really isn't that bad?
In any case, both Price and Hill seem to be slightly injured, so it looks like the seas have parted, and suddenly we're going to get to the Lin/Davis P&R promised land - at least for now. Hopefully, it all works so well that we don't have to discuss Price/Hill starting again
And even though I'm a Lin/Davis fan, and from my lengthy posts you can see the thought of Price/Hill starting really annoys me, I'm not really too worried about Lin/Davis not starting. Because if Byron really wants to win - and he's not completely blind - the results of starting Price/Hill will be so bad that he'll have no choice but to start Lin/Davis eventually.
Byron may see it differently. We will see. Good thing is Lin will be a UFA.
But all these advantages for Lin starting (playing with Kobe) are all about offense while people said Byron only cares about is defense. So there is no surprise that Byron may prefer to start Price since he sees that Price is an elite defender.
We shall see how it turns out when Price becomes healthy and starts.
I understand Byron's point but I don't agree because:
* First, it's not clear that Price is a better defender than Lin. I'm not sure the stats bear this out. Price looks like a better man defender, but Lin is a very good team defender. This is why Lin's defensive stats look good, even though he's obviously not as good man to man. Also, NBA level defensive systems set good screens, which negate some of that man to man defensive advantage. Yeah, Lin gets beat sometimes, but then again so does Price.
* Second, even if Price is a better defender, the important thing is the overall plus/minus between offence and defense. Is Price so much a better defender that he makes up for his lack of offense? Price shot 21% from the 3 last year. Lin shot 36% from the 3. A winning defensive strategy against Price would be to force him to shoot 3's as often as possible.
* Third, although Byron talks tough about defense, the teams he coaches tend to have really bad defense. Kyrie Irving has worse defense than Lin, and yet Byron seemed to have no problem playing Kyrie as many minutes as he could handle. Sure, defense is important, but why suddenly focus on it now, with Lin, when Lin's defense really isn't that bad?
In any case, both Price and Hill seem to be slightly injured, so it looks like the seas have parted, and suddenly we're going to get to the Lin/Davis P&R promised land - at least for now. Hopefully, it all works so well that we don't have to discuss Price/Hill starting again
And even though I'm a Lin/Davis fan, and from my lengthy posts you can see the thought of Price/Hill starting really annoys me, I'm not really too worried about Lin/Davis not starting. Because if Byron really wants to win - and he's not completely blind - the results of starting Price/Hill will be so bad that he'll have no choice but to start Lin/Davis eventually.
Byron may see it differently. We will see. Good thing is Lin will be a UFA.
Check out the 4th quarter of the first preaseason game vs the Suns. Lin and Kobe both were scoring heavily in that quarter. Lin mostly handled the ball and you could see them drawing defensive attention from each other. When Kobe has the ball, you have to think twice about doubling him, because Lin is just one pass away. Same situation if Lin has the ball and Kobe is one pass away. I really felt the two working together to come back from a deficit. Much better synergy than Lin/Melo and Lin/Harden.
I also don't like the concept of putting Lin on the second team because "the second unit needs a distributor". Hogwash. If you split Lin and Kobe, both will end up getting double teamed all the time. Also, without Lin, the 1st unit needs a distributor. Kobe is a distributor, but a weak one, which is why you get so much offensive stagnation with a Linless 1st unit. You need to put the best product on the floor as the 1st unit and let the bench fend for itself. You can also try to stagger Lin and Kobe's minutes so one of them is on the floor at all times. Hopefully the bench will be better when Swaggy returns.
I only watched highlights of that quarter. Will check the full quarter out. Thanks! I agree that Lin and Kobe played well together in that game. But from a few plays that I remember, Lin was a little too far from Kobe when Kobe was at corners doing his iso. As you said, iso can only work well to a certain extend. Either way, I am sure they will develop better chemistry as they play together more. I also agree that he will have better synergy with Kobe than Melo or Harden.
Yes, Kobe said "Lin makes a big difference" after the Sun game. I would like Lin to start too, but the decision lies in the hand of the coaches. I think we should trust that the system will correct itself.
CBaller8, I agree that Lin will have to have a great year for us to have a chance at the playoff. My prediction is that he will. Let's see ...
fiendishoc, I would love to see Lin/Davis. Hopefully that day will come soon. I don't think it is happening Tuesday. In fact I think Lakers already announced as such _________________ "We have a lot of guys that have been kinda discarded ... Myself with the injury and the age. Jeremy ... a bunch of players who other teams really felt they had no use for. So we have that kind of attitude built into ourselves" -- Kobe Bryant
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