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LakersPimp
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 Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Rick12322 wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Given the previous threads, does a good offense execution creates good defense situaitons or vice versa - good defense execution creates good offensive opportunities? In the 1980's Lakers, good defense led to many fastbreaks - but those Lakers had to learn how to effectively execute their half-court offense. With this edition of the Lakers, it appears (IMO) that good offensive sets will greatly help the team play good defense since the Lakers are not set-up to be a team that focuses on the fastbreaks since they don't have the necessary pieces - a PG that can quickly push the ball upcourt and enough closer/high-flyers beyond Kobe. |
Tex says if you execute the offense properly it will lead to better defense because the players are in a better position to get offensive rebounds. Offensive rebounds and high percentage scoring = fewer fastbreak opportunities for the opposition and time for the Lakers defense to recover. So I'd say from that aspect that a good offense will improve their defense. |
That's why I offered the perspective that running the Triangle is the most important thing to accomplished because it will greatly help the team play effective defense - especially since there are no great defensive players, outside of Kobe |
I believe that in a perfect world, tex is probably right...but your offense isnt always going to run smoothly...therefore its more important to have a strong defensive identity. Against phoenix the last 3 games...the offense ran smooth, but the shots werent going down....and the defense couldnt hold phoenix. Hopefully kwames legs allow him to block some shots this year! |
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they-perch
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:40 am Post subject: |
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"the triangle can produce the shots, but it can't make them go in."
---tex winter
obviously, people need to make shots.
--as far as team practice, last season they worked a lot on trapping defense, and when applied it worked pretty well. this time i'd like to see them work more on rotation defense obviously, but in addition they need to get everyone more developed as far as the triangle goes. the offense needs to run much more smoothly and consistently this season.
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Rick12322 wrote: | | A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | Given the previous threads, does a good offense execution creates good defense situaitons or vice versa - good defense execution creates good offensive opportunities? In the 1980's Lakers, good defense led to many fastbreaks - but those Lakers had to learn how to effectively execute their half-court offense. With this edition of the Lakers, it appears (IMO) that good offensive sets will greatly help the team play good defense since the Lakers are not set-up to be a team that focuses on the fastbreaks since they don't have the necessary pieces - a PG that can quickly push the ball upcourt and enough closer/high-flyers beyond Kobe. |
Tex says if you execute the offense properly it will lead to better defense because the players are in a better position to get offensive rebounds. Offensive rebounds and high percentage scoring = fewer fastbreak opportunities for the opposition and time for the Lakers defense to recover. So I'd say from that aspect that a good offense will improve their defense. |
That's why I offered the perspective that running the Triangle is the most important thing to accomplished because it will greatly help the team play effective defense - especially since there are no great defensive players, outside of Kobe |
I agree the Lakers need all the help they can get defensively. I think we are going to see improvements though. I'm encouraged that so many Lakers players are working on or even thinking about the PnR defense this off-season, and that they hired Jimmy Cleamons. Man, I can't wait for training camp, the pre-season and finally the season to start! It's been a long off-season. |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | Socks wrote: | I think you hit all the majors.
- Triangle, triangle, triangle. We don't have the most talent in the league, so execution will be critical.
- TEAM DEFENSE. Killed us last year, we've gotta improve. One of these days a Laker team will actually defend the pick n' roll well. I'm a believer!!!
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True, I would have them listed first and second, respectively. The defense needs work, but this team will win more games through good triangle execution than they will with defensive stops. |
I have to disagree.
Miami had an offensive team but when Riley really got down to it, he had them playing defense. That is what really made the difference in the end
You have pretty much the entire core of players coming back from last season. They have a good amount of Triangle knowledge. You have added even more offensive talent in Radmanovic, Williams, Farmar and Evans. Offense will get rolling eventually.
With so many offensive players on the team, the importance of defense must be emphasized. It's how Riley even got Shaq coming out on screen and rolls in Miami. You need to emphasize defense just like last season's training camp. Phil is known for working mostly on the Tri in the regular season. Having to work on the defense in training camp is extremely important. You even have players like Kwame, Bynum and others asking for it. They don't want to lose games because they got exposed by the pick and roll or what not.
The amount of Tri practice Phil gives these players in the regular season - no reason not to have it come along by playoff time. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | venturalakersfan wrote: | | Socks wrote: | I think you hit all the majors.
- Triangle, triangle, triangle. We don't have the most talent in the league, so execution will be critical.
- TEAM DEFENSE. Killed us last year, we've gotta improve. One of these days a Laker team will actually defend the pick n' roll well. I'm a believer!!!
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True, I would have them listed first and second, respectively. The defense needs work, but this team will win more games through good triangle execution than they will with defensive stops. |
I have to disagree.
Miami had an offensive team but when Riley really got down to it, he had them playing defense. That is what really made the difference in the end
You have pretty much the entire core of players coming back from last season. They have a good amount of Triangle knowledge. You have added even more offensive talent in Radmanovic, Williams, Farmar and Evans. Offense will get rolling eventually.
With so many offensive players on the team, the importance of defense must be emphasized. It's how Riley even got Shaq coming out on screen and rolls in Miami. You need to emphasize defense just like last season's training camp. Phil is known for working mostly on the Tri in the regular season. Having to work on the defense in training camp is extremely important. You even have players like Kwame, Bynum and others asking for it. They don't want to lose games because they got exposed by the pick and roll or what not.
The amount of Tri practice Phil gives these players in the regular season - no reason not to have it come along by playoff time. |
I agree that you win with defense, but I don't think the Lakers have the personnel to be a lock down defensive team. Miami had more defensive pieces to work with this past season. Practice defense by all means, but triangle execution will get them further in the playoffs.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about that Ventura. Aside from Alonzo's D and Shaq's size - what did they really have?
I mean their perimeter defense was NOT good. Their rotations and rebounding were good.
Defensively, they weren't built like the Pistons, Bulls or even Lakers of the past with a great interior and perimeter D.
They only had the interior part. |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Some interesting points here. I agree with ventura about us not having the personnel to be a lockdown team on D. We defintely don't have the players to suffocate teams on D and slow down the tempo and win the way the Spurs and Pistons do. For that to work you not only need shotblocking, but also a good or dominant inside threat at both ends. When we had Shaq we built our whole defense around him, and we used his offense to control the tempo and pound it into him.
But at the same time defense will make the difference between us winning 48 games and losing in the first round, and maybe having a chance at the WCF. We need to be able to consistently get stops in the 4th quarter and at key junctures of the game when we need to go on a spurt.
Assuming the offense is strong and balanced now, I'd like to see defense be the top priority, but with our personnel and the increased emphasis on offense leaguewide, offensive execution may ultimately be our calling card.
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | Some interesting points here. I agree with ventura about us not having the personnel to be a lockdown team on D. We defintely don't have the players to suffocate teams on D and slow down the tempo and win the way the Spurs and Pistons do. For that to work you not only need shotblocking, but also a good or dominant inside threat at both ends. When we had Shaq we built our whole defense around him, and we used his offense to control the tempo and pound it into him.
But at the same time defense will make the difference between us winning 48 games and losing in the first round, and maybe having a chance at the WCF. We need to be able to consistently get stops in the 4th quarter and at key junctures of the game when we need to go on a spurt.
Assuming the offense is strong and balanced now, I'd like to see defense be the top priority, but with our personnel and the increased emphasis on offense leaguewide, offensive execution may ultimately be our calling card. |
I concur that interesting points have been expressed. It is my belief that the Lakers need all the help they can on defense which starts with an offense that commits very few TOs - as the elite teams have done in the past. The second priority that NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED is to have a successful scheme/sets that effectively utilizes their talent. If the offense commits silly TOs early in the clock (ala Smush) - the "helter skelter" is a crap shoot that not too many teams can survive over the long haul. This is important cuz, outside of Kobe, there are no "lockdown" defenders on the team.
Re: The Heat Winning the Finals
** The "no touch" rule that applied mostly to DWade was a major factor
** Zo was the one that applied the needed defensive pressure in the paint, not Shaq
** Shaq did provide the early presence, as he has always done, but he also faded in the end - as he has always done
** Heat has everybody back - which means that Shaq, Zo, GP, etc. will be one year older
But hey - they did win last year |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | Some interesting points here. I agree with ventura about us not having the personnel to be a lockdown team on D. We defintely don't have the players to suffocate teams on D and slow down the tempo and win the way the Spurs and Pistons do. For that to work you not only need shotblocking, but also a good or dominant inside threat at both ends. When we had Shaq we built our whole defense around him, and we used his offense to control the tempo and pound it into him.
But at the same time defense will make the difference between us winning 48 games and losing in the first round, and maybe having a chance at the WCF. We need to be able to consistently get stops in the 4th quarter and at key junctures of the game when we need to go on a spurt.
Assuming the offense is strong and balanced now, I'd like to see defense be the top priority, but with our personnel and the increased emphasis on offense leaguewide, offensive execution may ultimately be our calling card. |
An important aspect that you are ignoring is that this Lakers team doesn't have to play the type of defense the 3 peat team did.
By that I mean - they don't have to be this slow half court set defense that has to get all it's stops by basically hoping that Shaq's intimidation or Kobe's elite defense on the perimeter will shut down a certain aspect of the opponent's offense.
As great a factor Shaq was (and no arguments that he was) his Pick and Roll defense made the Lakers alot worse defensively. If you think the Pick and Roll defense is bad now, it was alot worse before. There was also very little pressure defense where the Lakers were getting many TO's that led to fastbreak points.
You see the Lakers as currently constructed have to play different style of defense. They have to play their man for the drive, knowing that a jumpshot is a lower % shot than a layup. On screen and rolls, they have the bigman show each time down and make it harder for the point to just pull up and hit 3's. That one aspect, where the big shows consistently pretty much takes away 3-4 three's that the 3 peat Lakers used to give up because of Shaq not showing. The other aspect is the Forced TO's. There has to be far more fullcourt pressure that has to lead to TO's and lower FGA against the Lakers.
While I'm not saying the Lakers will be an elite defensive ballclub, I see no reason why they shouldn't play the type of defense they were playing earlier on last season.
High steals.
Lower FGA's against.
One of the best 3 point defense teams in the NBA.
Excellent defensive rebounding.
That's how the Lakers can be good defensively. |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | Some interesting points here. I agree with ventura about us not having the personnel to be a lockdown team on D. We defintely don't have the players to suffocate teams on D and slow down the tempo and win the way the Spurs and Pistons do. For that to work you not only need shotblocking, but also a good or dominant inside threat at both ends. When we had Shaq we built our whole defense around him, and we used his offense to control the tempo and pound it into him.
But at the same time defense will make the difference between us winning 48 games and losing in the first round, and maybe having a chance at the WCF. We need to be able to consistently get stops in the 4th quarter and at key junctures of the game when we need to go on a spurt.
Assuming the offense is strong and balanced now, I'd like to see defense be the top priority, but with our personnel and the increased emphasis on offense leaguewide, offensive execution may ultimately be our calling card. |
An important aspect that you are ignoring is that this Lakers team doesn't have to play the type of defense the 3 peat team did.
By that I mean - they don't have to be this slow half court set defense that has to get all it's stops by basically hoping that Shaq's intimidation or Kobe's elite defense on the perimeter will shut down a certain aspect of the opponent's offense.
As great a factor Shaq was (and no arguments that he was) his Pick and Roll defense made the Lakers alot worse defensively. If you think the Pick and Roll defense is bad now, it was alot worse before. There was also very little pressure defense where the Lakers were getting many TO's that led to fastbreak points.
You see the Lakers as currently constructed have to play different style of defense. They have to play their man for the drive, knowing that a jumpshot is a lower % shot than a layup. On screen and rolls, they have the bigman show each time down and make it harder for the point to just pull up and hit 3's. That one aspect, where the big shows consistently pretty much takes away 3-4 three's that the 3 peat Lakers used to give up because of Shaq not showing. The other aspect is the Forced TO's. There has to be far more fullcourt pressure that has to lead to TO's and lower FGA against the Lakers.
While I'm not saying the Lakers will be an elite defensive ballclub, I see no reason why they shouldn't play the type of defense they were playing earlier on last season.
High steals.
Lower FGA's against.
One of the best 3 point defense teams in the NBA.
Excellent defensive rebounding.
That's how the Lakers can be good defensively. |
Agreed. This Laker team will probably have to be more up-tempo to utilize the strengths and skills of the personnel. Kobe, Odom, and even Smush are at their best in the open court, so we need to look to run when we can, especially against slowdown teams like the Spurs. Of course, there's no way we'll become the Suns or the old Lakers, but we can probably run the way the Bulls did in the early 90s, especially once Farmar is ready to contribute.
So that would defintely mean a different style of defense that leads to a faster offense and fastbreak opportunities. I like the pressure D Phil was working on last year. Maybe we could employ some kind of zone trap at times when we want to up-tempo the game.
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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| slavavov wrote: | | Kobe, Odom, and even Smush are at their best in the open court, so we need to look to run when we can, especially against slowdown teams like the Spurs. |
The question is, who would the closers be - considering that many of the Lakers have had problems doing this.
Smush - ?!?!?!
Luke - Hmmm
Vlad - 3 point shot on a fastbreak
Kwame - will he catch the ball
Mihm - will he be able throughout the season
Farmar - unproven
Williams - unknown
Sasha - unsure |
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slavavov
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| A Mad Chinaman wrote: | | slavavov wrote: | | Kobe, Odom, and even Smush are at their best in the open court, so we need to look to run when we can, especially against slowdown teams like the Spurs. |
The question is, who would the closers be - considering that many of the Lakers have had problems doing this.
Smush - ?!?!?!
Luke - Hmmm
Vlad - 3 point shot on a fastbreak
Kwame - will he catch the ball
Mihm - will he be able throughout the season
Farmar - unproven
Williams - unknown
Sasha - unsure |
Well, Smush is a pretty good finisher, he had several facials last year. Odom can finish sometimes, especially going coast-to-coast, and obviously he's great at pushing the ball. And now that we have Vlad and Williams, we have a couple guys that can also spread the floor in early offense.
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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Smush is excellent at finishing if that's ALL he has to do with noone really standing in his way. Just not if there's shotblocking (which isn't the case on the break in most cases) - it's not a case where you will see blown layups.
Smush benefits ALOT from the breaks. So does Kobe. Odom if he pushed the ball more off rebounds would average atleast 1-2 baskets more on coast to coast plays alone. |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:23 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | | Smush is excellent at finishing if that's ALL he has to do with noone really standing in his way. Just not if there's shotblocking (which isn't the case on the break in most cases) - it's not a case where you will see blown layups. Smush benefits ALOT from the breaks. So does Kobe. Odom if he pushed the ball more off rebounds would average atleast 1-2 baskets more on coast to coast plays alone. |
Wolf - any NBA player can show-off if there is nobody standing in his way. Good closers can go alone - because he is fast and going against one player. I'm not expecting Smush to be like Kobe. Just expecting him to be consistent (big problem for Smush) as a closer like players such as Richard Jefferson, Shawn Marion, etc. I recognize that these players are taller, but closers are closers.
LO - I agree that he can close, hope he does it this season
Who else would be trustworthy to be closers and/or can effectively run the fastbreak that the Lakers messed up many times last season?!?!
Remember Magic's Lakers where they knew to get the ball in the middle with the others taking the wings along with a trailer behind Magic?!?! |
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Rick12322
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I don't know about that Ventura. Aside from Alonzo's D and Shaq's size - what did they really have?
I mean their perimeter defense was NOT good. Their rotations and rebounding were good.
Defensively, they weren't built like the Pistons, Bulls or even Lakers of the past with a great interior and perimeter D.
They only had the interior part. |
It's too easy to forget the x--errrr REF factor in Miami's successful defense system. That said, the net effect of Zo and Shack in the paint made a huge difference, IMO. |
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venturalakersfan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| wolfpaclaker wrote: | I don't know about that Ventura. Aside from Alonzo's D and Shaq's size - what did they really have?
I mean their perimeter defense was NOT good. Their rotations and rebounding were good.
Defensively, they weren't built like the Pistons, Bulls or even Lakers of the past with a great interior and perimeter D.
They only had the interior part. |
I think their perimeter D was average, not great but not poor. But it is the interior D that makes the difference. Hence my constant harping that building a tough interior D with shotblocking makes average permitier D that much better.
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Mike@LG
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I mean their perimeter defense was NOT good |
Well, Haslem forced Nowtizki outside and Dirk shot poorly out there. Terry was inconsistent for the series. Posey took turns blanketing players out.
That's all the perimeter D you need with 2 elite swatters.
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 3. The roster rotation. Mihm, Kwame, Odom, Bryant, Parker are all a given. The pine? Evans. Turiaf, Radmanovic. Farmar. Good top 9 rotation. |
It's all speculation, but I'd bet on Mihm coming off the bench and VRad starting. I'd also bet on Walton getting more playing time than Farmar or Turiaf. |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| venturalakersfan wrote: | | I think their perimeter D was average, not great but not poor. But it is the interior D that makes the difference. Hence my constant harping that building a tough interior D with shotblocking makes average permitier D that much better. |
Heat, just what the Lakers should do, (IMO) is run effective offensive sets so that it allows their "bigs" provide some interior "D." Of course, once they are on the defensive side - they should talk with one another so that they know what to do on P&R and on switches. We don't situation like when Smush was caught not guarding his man and not doubling anybody else' man while having the best seat/location on the court - 3 feet from the action?!?!?! |
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wolfpaclaker
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I think their perimeter D was average, not great but not poor. But it is the interior D that makes the difference. Hence my constant harping that building a tough interior D with shotblocking makes average permitier D that much better. |
Agreed. However, the Lakers have better perimeter defenders in Bryant, Odom and maybe Smush (when he is up for it)
The Lakers wouldn't need the shotblocking as desperately. Most important for the Lakers is defense on screen and rolls IMO.
You know that Phx just milked the screen and roll. That's how they came back in that series. |
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mike_dee23
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| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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1. Figure out which point guard will be most consistent hitting open jumpers! Teams need to pay for doubling Kobe.
2. Defending the pick and roll/pick and pop. It seemed as if the Suns ran one play in the playoffs, the pick and roll... the Lakers defend this better, they win.
3. Establish Lamar in the post. It's pretty obvious he will play the 4, he needs to play there. He is a playmaker and can make plays from down low.
4. Get Bynum some minutes. Kid needs to play. He needs to get hit and then learn to hit back. He needs to run for 35+ minutes, just to get used to it. |
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A Mad Chinaman
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| mike_dee23 wrote: | 1. Figure out which point guard will be most consistent hitting open jumpers! Teams need to pay for doubling Kobe.
2. Defending the pick and roll/pick and pop. It seemed as if the Suns ran one play in the playoffs, the pick and roll... the Lakers defend this better, they win.
3. Establish Lamar in the post. It's pretty obvious he will play the 4, he needs to play there. He is a playmaker and can make plays from down low.
4. Get Bynum some minutes. Kid needs to play. He needs to get hit and then learn to hit back. He needs to run for 35+ minutes, just to get used to it. |
Good points that should be addressed during training camp. When the Lakers concentrate on their offensive sets, they will have to identify their shooters/"release" people that they can depend on - that seems to be Vlad, LO and Kobe. The PG should be active and hit key shots, but they should have to worry about shooting - otherwise you might as well have Kobe as PG (which didn't worked too well).
If the offensive sets are runned well, then the defense has a decent chance of setting up their planned defenses that will address the P&R
When the offensive sets are runned well, LO will definitely be an important part - whether it is playmaking, rebounding and/or scoring
Bynum will play once he has demonstrated that he can play |
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