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lakerjoshua
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 Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | It depends on your religion. Which fortunately has no bearing on our laws. |
I see this comment more and more as time goes by. It's not true, and it never has been true. Our entire legal system is filled with religious values, and it always has been. |
I suppose there are some basic universal laws that may or may not be rooted in religion such as murder, theft, etc. But these can also be said to be rooted in basic social acceptability. Was murder not wrong before the bible or does the bible get sole credit for thou shalt not kill? Has it not always been wrong to steal your neighbors cow even before Christianity? Your comment sort of lends to the idea that religion is the basis of our value system but that would also imply that those without religion have no such values and we know that's not the case.
I also agree with what you said here:
| Quote: | | It's a wedge issue, and there isn't a lot of room for rational discussion, sadly. |
So I'll just stop here.
Last edited by lakerjoshua on Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: |
It was a good day for women's reproductive rights. |
what about the baby's rights? Is that not a human being inside the mother? |
The abortion laws are quite clear as to when a fetus cannot be aborted. Whether or not you agree with those laws is irrelevant. I agree 100% with Linda, it was an amazing day for women's rights and a bad day for those who would try and deny them. |
doesn't life start at conception though? Even in the first trimester, can't it still be considered a baby?
Doesn't anybody find it disturbing to kill an innocent being just because it's an inconvenience to you? |
You can believe whatever you like. Women have a constitutional right to do as they choose with their bodies without consulting you (or politicians or ministers or rabbis) to ask for your approval or permission. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have an abortion. If you're man and will never have to make that choice, then use birth control and don't impregnate your partner. |
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Aeneas Hunter
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| lakerjoshua wrote: | | I suppose there are some basic universal laws that may or may not be rooted in religion such as murder, theft, etc. But these can also be said to be rooted in basic social acceptability. Was murder not wrong before the bible or does the bible get sole credit for thou shalt not kill? Has it not always been wrong to steal your neighbors cow even before Christianity? Your comment sort of lends to the idea that religion is the basis of our value system but that would also imply that those without religion have no such values and we know that's not the case. |
Just to be clear, I wasn't referring specifically to the abortion issue. I'm pro choice. Instead, I'm putting on my lawyer hat for a moment. There are a lot of religious values in the law that you don't even think of as religious. They are so engrained in our culture and our legal system that we just take them for granted. For example, the laws against usury were originally religious in nature. There are other instances where this is more visible, such as polygamy.
Every voter, and every legislator, is entitled to give effect to his or her values, whether they are religious or not. In America, the limit on this is the first amendment, but that does not go as far as some people seem to think. |
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lakerjoshua
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Aeneas Hunter wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | I suppose there are some basic universal laws that may or may not be rooted in religion such as murder, theft, etc. But these can also be said to be rooted in basic social acceptability. Was murder not wrong before the bible or does the bible get sole credit for thou shalt not kill? Has it not always been wrong to steal your neighbors cow even before Christianity? Your comment sort of lends to the idea that religion is the basis of our value system but that would also imply that those without religion have no such values and we know that's not the case. |
Just to be clear, I wasn't referring specifically to the abortion issue. I'm pro choice. Instead, I'm putting on my lawyer hat for a moment. There are a lot of religious values in the law that you don't even think of as religious. They are so engrained in our culture and our legal system that we just take them for granted. For example, the laws against usury were originally religious in nature. There are other instances where this is more visible, such as polygamy.
Every voter, and every legislator, is entitled to give effect to his or her values, whether they are religious or not. In America, the limit on this is the first amendment, but that does not go as far as some people seem to think. |
It's a very nice hat indeed  |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: |
It was a good day for women's reproductive rights. |
what about the baby's rights? Is that not a human being inside the mother? |
The abortion laws are quite clear as to when a fetus cannot be aborted. Whether or not you agree with those laws is irrelevant. I agree 100% with Linda, it was an amazing day for women's rights and a bad day for those who would try and deny them. |
doesn't life start at conception though? Even in the first trimester, can't it still be considered a baby?
Doesn't anybody find it disturbing to kill an innocent being just because it's an inconvenience to you? |
You can believe whatever you like. Women have a constitutional right to do as they choose with their bodies without consulting you (or politicians or ministers or rabbis) to ask for your approval or permission. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have an abortion. If you're man and will never have to make that choice, then use birth control and don't impregnate your partner. |
but, it's not their body. It's the baby's body. Nobody goes up to a pregnant woman and says "how's the body". They say, "how's the baby". The woman is not getting rid of her appendix or her kidney. She's killing a baby. that, is not HER BODY. The baby is inside her body.
for the record, my argument has nothing to do with religion. They have their own (bleep) up beliefs on this topic.
As a father of 3, that most certainly was a baby kicking the living (bleep) out of my wife everyday for about 3 months.
I'll take your "don't believe in abortion, don't have one" even further. How about, don't want a baby? close your legs. In that situation, it IS the woman's body. It's her body and she has the right to say "no".
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lakerjoshua
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How about, don't want a baby? close your legs. |
And for the woman who was raped? |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| lakerjoshua wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: |
It was a good day for women's reproductive rights. |
what about the baby's rights? Is that not a human being inside the mother? |
The abortion laws are quite clear as to when a fetus cannot be aborted. Whether or not you agree with those laws is irrelevant. I agree 100% with Linda, it was an amazing day for women's rights and a bad day for those who would try and deny them. |
doesn't life start at conception though? Even in the first trimester, can't it still be considered a baby?
Doesn't anybody find it disturbing to kill an innocent being just because it's an inconvenience to you? |
It depends on your religion. Which fortunately has no bearing on our laws. There are many religions who do not believe this and atheists such as myself who believe it's none of my business what a woman does with her body. So, I suppose it's mainly a christian argument. Pre-Christianity, people used to sacrifice babies to their gods for a better harvest- but our laws were not written to appease Zeus either which Christians should be happy about. |
my post has nothing to do with religion. I'm in no way a religious person. Purely scientific or, attempting to be. Obviously I'm not expert but, sperm meets egg=life right?
Besides, the bible says that a baby is not considered a human until she's a month old. Also, they condone abortions if adultery is committed.
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| lakerjoshua wrote: | | Quote: | | How about, don't want a baby? close your legs. |
And for the woman who was assaulted? |
ok. Fair enough. We can agree on that. I'll take it a step further and will accept it in an incest case too.
But, how often does that happen? More often than not, a woman just doesn't want the responsibility. We can't solve the problem by killing the babies. It's deeper rooted issue.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: |
It was a good day for women's reproductive rights. |
what about the baby's rights? Is that not a human being inside the mother? |
The abortion laws are quite clear as to when a fetus cannot be aborted. Whether or not you agree with those laws is irrelevant. I agree 100% with Linda, it was an amazing day for women's rights and a bad day for those who would try and deny them. |
doesn't life start at conception though? Even in the first trimester, can't it still be considered a baby?
Doesn't anybody find it disturbing to kill an innocent being just because it's an inconvenience to you? |
You can believe whatever you like. Women have a constitutional right to do as they choose with their bodies without consulting you (or politicians or ministers or rabbis) to ask for your approval or permission. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have an abortion. If you're man and will never have to make that choice, then use birth control and don't impregnate your partner. |
but, it's not their body. It's the baby's body. Nobody goes up to a pregnant woman and says "how's the body". They say, "how's the baby". The woman is not getting rid of her appendix or her kidney. She's killing a baby. that, is not HER BODY. The baby is inside her body.
for the record, my argument has nothing to do with religion. They have their own (bleep) up beliefs on this topic.
As a father of 3, that most certainly was a baby kicking the living (bleep) out of my wife everyday for about 3 months.
I'll take your "don't believe in abortion, don't have one" even further. How about, don't want a baby? close your legs. In that situation, it IS the woman's body. It's her body and she has the right to say "no". |
The point is, people have a right to their own beliefs. You have no idea of what is going on someone else's life or how their pregnancy came to be. Some people who believe in reincarnation think the fetus does not get inhabited with a soul until near birth. To them the fetus at the earlier stage is just a fetus and not a person. So they don't view it the same way you do.
As for the closing the legs bit, that sounds like something Donald Trump would say.
But the law is the law. Abortion is legal and women should have access to their own healthcare choices without being shamed, judged, harassed and having sexist slurs hurled at them. |
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Clinton Leads Trump on Orlando Massacre Response, Trust to Handle Terrorism (POLL)
| Quote: | Americans overwhelmingly support barring gun purchases by individuals on the FBI’s terrorist watch list — an initiative that has thus far failed in Congress. And Hillary Clinton has moved ahead of Donald Trump in trust to handle terrorism, boosted by her response to the Orlando attack.
Eighty-six percent of respondents in an ABC News/Washington Post poll released today favored a ban on gun purchases by those on the watch list. The survey also found an increase in support for an assault weapons ban, to 51 percent, even as most Americans were in favor of encouraging more people to carry guns legally for self-defense. With broad worries about other lone-wolf attacks, most favored increased surveillance of suspected terrorists, even if that intrudes on privacy rights.
Mirroring her rebound in the race for the White House, Clinton led Trump, 50 percent to 39 percent, in trust to handle terrorism in this poll, produced for ABC by Langer Research Associates. That’s similar to the gap in March, after a more closely divided view last month.
This reflected Clinton’s superior marks for her response to the shooting in Orlando. More respondents thought she did a better job than Trump in responding to the attack overall (46 percent to 28 percent) and showed better temperament in her response (59 percent to 25 percent). More said Clinton gave them confidence that she could handle a similar incident as president (53 percent to 34 percent). She also prevailed, albeit more narrowly, in having better proposals for preventing attacks (44 percent to 35 percent). |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | lakerjoshua wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: |
It was a good day for women's reproductive rights. |
what about the baby's rights? Is that not a human being inside the mother? |
The abortion laws are quite clear as to when a fetus cannot be aborted. Whether or not you agree with those laws is irrelevant. I agree 100% with Linda, it was an amazing day for women's rights and a bad day for those who would try and deny them. |
doesn't life start at conception though? Even in the first trimester, can't it still be considered a baby?
Doesn't anybody find it disturbing to kill an innocent being just because it's an inconvenience to you? |
You can believe whatever you like. Women have a constitutional right to do as they choose with their bodies without consulting you (or politicians or ministers or rabbis) to ask for your approval or permission. Don't believe in abortion? Don't have an abortion. If you're man and will never have to make that choice, then use birth control and don't impregnate your partner. |
but, it's not their body. It's the baby's body. Nobody goes up to a pregnant woman and says "how's the body". They say, "how's the baby". The woman is not getting rid of her appendix or her kidney. She's killing a baby. that, is not HER BODY. The baby is inside her body.
for the record, my argument has nothing to do with religion. They have their own (bleep) up beliefs on this topic.
As a father of 3, that most certainly was a baby kicking the living (bleep) out of my wife everyday for about 3 months.
I'll take your "don't believe in abortion, don't have one" even further. How about, don't want a baby? close your legs. In that situation, it IS the woman's body. It's her body and she has the right to say "no". |
The point is, people have a right to their own beliefs. You have no idea of what is going on someone else's life or how their pregnancy came to be. Some people who believe in reincarnation think the fetus does not get inhabited with a soul until near birth. To them the fetus at the earlier stage is just a fetus and not a person. So they don't view it the same way you do.
As for the closing the legs bit, that sounds like something Donald Trump would say.
But the law is the law. Abortion is legal and women should have access to their own healthcare choices without being shamed, judged, harassed and having sexist slurs hurled at them. |
They're arbitrary beliefs that are not based on fact. Hell, the definition of what is considered human is arbitrary in itself. You're condoning the murdering of an innocent child when you CONSENSUALLY have sex with someone.
I don't give a (bleep) how their pregnancy came to be provided they were not a rape or incest victim. Killing another human being simply because of your own convenience is the essence of evil and you're condoning it. You're saying if you BELIEVE it's not human, then kill it? Something very wrong with that.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens.
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ChefLinda
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens. |
I believe people have the right to determine these things for themselves, make their decision based on their own belief system, personal health and life circumstances in consultation with their doctor. I don't believe I have the right to determine that for someone else.
FWIW, I've never had an abortion. And If I ever faced that decision, it would be a very difficult and very personal one. Therefore I respect the difficult decision that others have to make.
Our law says a fetus is not a person and abortion is not murder.
Again, you have a right to believe it is murder and make your own personal decisions based on that belief. But you don't have the right to enforce your belief on others. |
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Aussiesuede
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Joined: 27 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens. |
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So murder is a crime, but lawful killing is not a crime. A lawful killing is a killing that the law allows. If you choose to use the word murder, then clearly Abortion doesn't apply since abortion is a lawful killing - hence it can't be murder by definition. It is also not against the law to kill spiders, beetles, and a multitude of living creatures.
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I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens. |
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So murder is a crime, but lawful killing is not a crime. A lawful killing is a killing that the law allows. If you choose to use the word murder, then clearly Abortion doesn't apply since abortion is a lawful killing - hence it can't be murder by definition. It is also not against the law to kill spiders, beetles, and a multitude of living creatures. |
He's aware of the terminology involved. He just knows he is incapable of making his point without using hyperbolic language, loaded terminology, intellectual dishonesty and demeaning phrasing.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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There's some (bleep) up "beliefs" here. Lawful killing of an innocent human being, arbitrary definition of what a human is, etc.
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Aussiesuede wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens. |
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So murder is a crime, but lawful killing is not a crime. A lawful killing is a killing that the law allows. If you choose to use the word murder, then clearly Abortion doesn't apply since abortion is a lawful killing - hence it can't be murder by definition. It is also not against the law to kill spiders, beetles, and a multitude of living creatures. |
point is, you're okay with killing an innocent baby. right? That's what you're telling me.
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens. |
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So murder is a crime, but lawful killing is not a crime. A lawful killing is a killing that the law allows. If you choose to use the word murder, then clearly Abortion doesn't apply since abortion is a lawful killing - hence it can't be murder by definition. It is also not against the law to kill spiders, beetles, and a multitude of living creatures. |
He's aware of the terminology involved. He just knows he is incapable of making his point without using hyperbolic language, loaded terminology, intellectual dishonesty and demeaning phrasing. |
Intellectual dishonesty?! SCIENCE says that that's a HUMAN BEING inside a woman's body. It's not just snot or goo or whatever you believe it to be.
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens. |
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So murder is a crime, but lawful killing is not a crime. A lawful killing is a killing that the law allows. If you choose to use the word murder, then clearly Abortion doesn't apply since abortion is a lawful killing - hence it can't be murder by definition. It is also not against the law to kill spiders, beetles, and a multitude of living creatures. |
He's aware of the terminology involved. He just knows he is incapable of making his point without using hyperbolic language, loaded terminology, intellectual dishonesty and demeaning phrasing. |
Intellectual dishonesty?! SCIENCE says that that's a HUMAN BEING inside a woman's body. It's not just snot or goo or whatever you believe it to be. |
Actually, science has demonstrated it is the opposite. A fetus can't survive without the mother's bodily systems as an incubator. In the early stages of formation a fetus is far from being developed human being.
_________________
You thought God was an architect, now you know
He’s something like a pipe bomb ready to blow
And everything you built that’s all for show
goes up in flames
In 24 frames
Jason Isbell
Man, do those lyrics resonate right now |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | DaMuleRules wrote: | | Aussiesuede wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: | | ChefLinda wrote: | | So you want to be king of the world and determine how everyone else should behave according to your beliefs alone? Got it. |
In this world, murder is a crime is it not? It has nothing to do with what I believe in.
But in YOUR world, if you BELIEVE it's not human (even though it is) you kill it. Ok. Sure, I guess you condone murder of innocent children.
Apologies for the "close your legs" comment. Let me know where the nearest safe space is and I'll provide the puppies and kittens. |
Murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another. So murder is a crime, but lawful killing is not a crime. A lawful killing is a killing that the law allows. If you choose to use the word murder, then clearly Abortion doesn't apply since abortion is a lawful killing - hence it can't be murder by definition. It is also not against the law to kill spiders, beetles, and a multitude of living creatures. |
He's aware of the terminology involved. He just knows he is incapable of making his point without using hyperbolic language, loaded terminology, intellectual dishonesty and demeaning phrasing. |
Intellectual dishonesty?! SCIENCE says that that's a HUMAN BEING inside a woman's body. It's not just snot or goo or whatever you believe it to be. |
Actually, science has demonstrated it is the opposite. A fetus can't survive without the mother's bodily systems as an incubator. In the early stages of formation a fetus is far from being developed human being. |
so, if I get into a car crash and I'm on life support, I cease being a human because I cannot survive without it. Goooottcchhaaaa.
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ringfinger
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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The central issue isn't even abortion. The central issue is the definition of a human being. If we could all agree on that, then we'd all agree on when abortion is okay or not okay.
I don't believe the science community is aligned, on where exactly the line between snot/goo and human being is. So you're never going to get two layman to agree, if two scientists cannot agree either.
frijolero01, just curious, what is your take on the morning after pill? Should it be made illegal? |
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DaMuleRules
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| frijolero01 wrote: |
so, if I get into a car crash and I'm on life support, I cease being a human because I cannot survive without it. Goooottcchhaaaa. |
A completely different situation than an undeveloped fetus. Like I said about that lack of intellectual honesty thing . . .
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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I think that anything that prevents the natural process of a human being should be made illegal. It's just a cop out for those who were too horny or lazy to get a condom or pull out.
oops. I forgot to use my euphemisms again. safe space safe space!!
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Last edited by frijolero01 on Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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frijolero01
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| DaMuleRules wrote: | | frijolero01 wrote: |
so, if I get into a car crash and I'm on life support, I cease being a human because I cannot survive without it. Goooottcchhaaaa. |
A completely different situation than an undeveloped fetus. Like I said about that lack of intellectual honesty thing . . . |
a human is a human is a human. ok, buddy. 
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