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J.C. Smith
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 Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| augus7 wrote: | | Julius may never hit the star pinnacle that Ben will, but if he can be a solid 17/10/5 guy |
He has been putting up close to that over his past 7 games: 15.3 points, 9.7 rebounds, 4.7 assists. I don't think those numbers are flukes, he's going to continue to improve. Once his jumper becomes more reliable he'll see a bump to his scoring. |
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Roon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | We all agreed that shooting with quickly open up driving lanes and make his finishing at the basket much easier, but who would have thought that his passing would relieve the pressure first? Notice that after a while, defenders have to stay home on the shooters knowing that if they collapse into the paint, Randle will find his guy. That leaves Randle with just one guy to beat, which he can do easily with his strong bumps and quick footwork.
In my opinion that's the biggest difference from last year that accounts for his improved scoring efficiency. Last year he'd be barreling into 3 defenders that all knew he was going left and going to throw up some hopeless prayer of a floater.
His skillset + athleticism is now more of a young LeBron with maybe half the hops and jumper, but I think he's about as strong or fast, or damn close. Like LeBron if you surround him with 4 bonafide 3 pt shooters and give him the ball, he's going to be lethal in a few years. |
I did. I posted this in March, I think it was after his triple double. Direct link to the post.
| Roon wrote: | I also wanted to comment on Julius opening his game up.
Everyone is saying, if Julius gets a jumpshot, he'll be unguardable.
How many players, really are able to guard him 1v1 in the first place?
I don't know the percentage or number.
How do teams play Julius? The man defender sags off, yes, and dares him to shoot. Julius, uncomfortable with his shot, usually drives anyways. The defender who sagged off of him is in a better position to defend. That's not the only thing the defensive team does though, they also collapse the defense, and put bodies in his way.
So while this isn't a traditional double team, when Julius drives, he constantly draws multiple defenders(sometimes up to 3, especially when there is poor spacing).
If I was KIROE I'd throw in some sweet vines to demonstrate all of this, but I'll just hope this all makes sense.
A midrange(and 3 ball) jumpshot/game would open up his drive. Simply looking for the pass, however, would create tons of space for him and his teammates as well.
Just look at Huertas. While his game is opposite of Julius, there are still lessons to be learned. He's not a great, or even good really, midrange or 3 point threat. He's not even a threat to score at the rim. His passing game, however, keeps the D honest, and helps him get some shots off.
Julius could do the same thing, although in a different capacity/goal. Not as a point guard/point forward, but to help open up the offense.
If the Lakers ran a few plays, especially to open the game/quarter/half, where Julius is given the ball, but it's designed for people to cut, move, get open for the kick. So when he drives, he's specifically looking for the open man. The play is designed, for him to drive, and have him and his teammates expect the defense to collapse. They could even design the play so the Lakers already have an idea of where the defensive help would come from, and move into the now open space.
Not only should these plays create open looks for Julius or his teammates, but it'd keep the defense honest the rest of the game.
That could open up not just his game but give his teammates space as well.
That's what great players are able to do. Draw the attention of the defense, then create plays out of that attention, for you or your teammates.
Then you throw a midrange/3 game to that. Wooo look out. |
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ZenMaster4President
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:12 am Post subject: |
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There is no such thing as "solid 17/10/5".
There is ONE player in NBA history to average that. One. He used to wear green uniform.
And only 4 got 15/7/5. LeBron, Big O, Bird and Magic. |
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governator
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| ZenMaster4President wrote: | There is no such thing as "solid 17/10/5".
There is ONE player in NBA history to average that. One. He used to wear green uniform.
And only 4 got 15/7/5. LeBron, Big O, Bird and Magic. |
Averaging 5 apg+ without being the primary ball handler is really hard to do. |
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| governator wrote: | | ZenMaster4President wrote: | There is no such thing as "solid 17/10/5".
There is ONE player in NBA history to average that. One. He used to wear green uniform.
And only 4 got 15/7/5. LeBron, Big O, Bird and Magic. |
Averaging 5 apg+ without being the primary ball handler is really hard to do. |
He should be our primary ball handler though, imo.
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bum2
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | governator wrote: | | ZenMaster4President wrote: | There is no such thing as "solid 17/10/5".
There is ONE player in NBA history to average that. One. He used to wear green uniform.
And only 4 got 15/7/5. LeBron, Big O, Bird and Magic. |
Averaging 5 apg+ without being the primary ball handler is really hard to do. |
He should be our primary ball handler though, imo. |
Some used to say that about Lamar. I think there is a difference between someone being a good creator and being the primary ball handler.
Draymond is a good example of this. |
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Truck Turner
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| Chronicle wrote: | | governator wrote: | | ZenMaster4President wrote: | There is no such thing as "solid 17/10/5".
There is ONE player in NBA history to average that. One. He used to wear green uniform.
And only 4 got 15/7/5. LeBron, Big O, Bird and Magic. |
Averaging 5 apg+ without being the primary ball handler is really hard to do. |
He should be our primary ball handler though, imo. |
I think the team works best with D'Lo and Randle sharing the duties as primary ball handler. When they get that two man game going they're a deadly combination. I want to see a bit more PnR action with the two.
As for Julius possibly averaging 5 APG without being THE primary ball handler, it's possibly if only because of the pace the Lakers play at, but D'Lo need to be the consistent shooter that we know he's capable of being. There's no reason Randle can't set up D'Lo and Young for 2 threes a game each and get ONE lob or under the basket dish to Mozgov every game. |
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Rivershow
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:29 am Post subject: |
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| augus7 wrote: | | 2019 wrote: | | Chronicle wrote: | | KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | | Inverse wrote: | | I think the player who Julius is most similar to is ben Simmons. Simmons is the better prospect obviously, but they are both big men who facilitate, can break down defenses, and are bad jump shooters. It'll be interesting to see how Simmons develops and compare that with JR |
yes. he's Simmons-lite. |
at this point in time no, simmons can be randle-lite maybe. |
Simmons is going to be a superstar version of Randle... that's not a knock on Julius as much as praising Ben. And it's also just my gut.... could be wrong.
That said, Julius + Ingram is amazing forward duo and the fit is perfect. Julius may never hit the star pinnacle that Ben will, but if he can be a solid 17/10/5 guy and Ingram can be a 20/5/3/2/2 elite defender, that's stupid level production. Right now, that's kinda how I see them in their primes.
Factor in D'LO at 24/5/5, JC and Nance off the bench, and then Zubac (who I think can be a 14/12 guy) and our core is set. All that talent has blended quite nicely and it looks like we're not going to be giving away a top 8-10 pick...
All that said, Philly also has a lot to be excited about: Embiid and Simmons front court is scary. They'll still trade Jah and Noel to get better fit piece too...
Lakers, Philly, Mil, and Minny... we're all set up quite nicely with massive potential star talent. Denver Orlando are to a lesser extent too. |
If the talent level is close, I think the main difference maker will be team culture, player development and coaching. |
Add free agency to that as well. Hopefully we can get some allstar additions in the future. |
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LakerSanity
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | augus7 wrote: | | Julius may never hit the star pinnacle that Ben will, but if he can be a solid 17/10/5 guy |
He has been putting up close to that over his past 7 games: 15.3 points, 9.7 rebounds, 4.7 assists. I don't think those numbers are flukes, he's going to continue to improve. Once his jumper becomes more reliable he'll see a bump to his scoring. |
I don't think its a sure thing Simmons will be have a better career than Randle either. Randle has a scorer's mindset and alpha mentality. I'm not sure one can say the same for Simmons. Assuming he reaches his potential, that's the difference between Simmons being in Lebron's class and Simmons being another Lamar Odom.
Conversely, I have no problem seeing Randle getting to 20+ PPG per game during the prime of his career. If I had to bet, I'd say Simmons gets there too, but I have my doubts as well.
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FanOfFour
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| LakerSanity wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | augus7 wrote: | | Julius may never hit the star pinnacle that Ben will, but if he can be a solid 17/10/5 guy |
He has been putting up close to that over his past 7 games: 15.3 points, 9.7 rebounds, 4.7 assists. I don't think those numbers are flukes, he's going to continue to improve. Once his jumper becomes more reliable he'll see a bump to his scoring. |
I don't think its a sure thing Simmons will be have a better career than Randle either. Randle has a scorer's mindset and alpha mentality. I'm not sure one can say the same for Simmons. Assuming he reaches his potential, that's the difference between Simmons being in Lebron's class and Simmons being another Lamar Odom.
Conversely, I have no problem seeing Randle getting to 20+ PPG per game during the prime of his career. If I had to bet, I'd say Simmons gets there too, but I have my doubts as well. |
I'm very interested to see what Simmons does when he finally plays. He can't shoot worth a lick. When Randle got injured, he at least worked on his body. Shed bad weight and put on all sorts of muscle. That alone shows dedication. We'll see if Simmons has the mentality to improve himself or if he doesn't. If he does, the sky's the limit. If not, well, we've seen that before in other players over the years. |
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Dr. Funkbot
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| J.C. Smith wrote: | | augus7 wrote: | | Julius may never hit the star pinnacle that Ben will, but if he can be a solid 17/10/5 guy |
He has been putting up close to that over his past 7 games: 15.3 points, 9.7 rebounds, 4.7 assists. I don't think those numbers are flukes, he's going to continue to improve. Once his jumper becomes more reliable he'll see a bump to his scoring. |
The jumper already looks better, needs to take more of them. AND he needs to use his right hand more often. It's amazing what he has been doing with the holes he still has in his game. He is still so young, I can't wait to see him put it all together!
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levon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Roon wrote: | | levon wrote: | We all agreed that shooting with quickly open up driving lanes and make his finishing at the basket much easier, but who would have thought that his passing would relieve the pressure first? Notice that after a while, defenders have to stay home on the shooters knowing that if they collapse into the paint, Randle will find his guy. That leaves Randle with just one guy to beat, which he can do easily with his strong bumps and quick footwork.
In my opinion that's the biggest difference from last year that accounts for his improved scoring efficiency. Last year he'd be barreling into 3 defenders that all knew he was going left and going to throw up some hopeless prayer of a floater.
His skillset + athleticism is now more of a young LeBron with maybe half the hops and jumper, but I think he's about as strong or fast, or damn close. Like LeBron if you surround him with 4 bonafide 3 pt shooters and give him the ball, he's going to be lethal in a few years. |
I did. I posted this in March, I think it was after his triple double. Direct link to the post.
| Roon wrote: | I also wanted to comment on Julius opening his game up.
Everyone is saying, if Julius gets a jumpshot, he'll be unguardable.
How many players, really are able to guard him 1v1 in the first place?
I don't know the percentage or number.
How do teams play Julius? The man defender sags off, yes, and dares him to shoot. Julius, uncomfortable with his shot, usually drives anyways. The defender who sagged off of him is in a better position to defend. That's not the only thing the defensive team does though, they also collapse the defense, and put bodies in his way.
So while this isn't a traditional double team, when Julius drives, he constantly draws multiple defenders(sometimes up to 3, especially when there is poor spacing).
If I was KIROE I'd throw in some sweet vines to demonstrate all of this, but I'll just hope this all makes sense.
A midrange(and 3 ball) jumpshot/game would open up his drive. Simply looking for the pass, however, would create tons of space for him and his teammates as well.
Just look at Huertas. While his game is opposite of Julius, there are still lessons to be learned. He's not a great, or even good really, midrange or 3 point threat. He's not even a threat to score at the rim. His passing game, however, keeps the D honest, and helps him get some shots off.
Julius could do the same thing, although in a different capacity/goal. Not as a point guard/point forward, but to help open up the offense.
If the Lakers ran a few plays, especially to open the game/quarter/half, where Julius is given the ball, but it's designed for people to cut, move, get open for the kick. So when he drives, he's specifically looking for the open man. The play is designed, for him to drive, and have him and his teammates expect the defense to collapse. They could even design the play so the Lakers already have an idea of where the defensive help would come from, and move into the now open space.
Not only should these plays create open looks for Julius or his teammates, but it'd keep the defense honest the rest of the game.
That could open up not just his game but give his teammates space as well.
That's what great players are able to do. Draw the attention of the defense, then create plays out of that attention, for you or your teammates.
Then you throw a midrange/3 game to that. Wooo look out. |
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 Great foresight. And I think making the right reads from the 4 is a much more difficult (and valuable) skill to pick up than getting a consistent midrange jumper by means of repetition. When he puts it together in a year or two, only a handful of defenses can nullify his effect. Especially if Russell continues to be a massive threat from outside with high pnr and 3 pt shot, and they trap him at the top. Randle is going to be playing downhill with a man advantage every single time. |
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Judah
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| FanOfFour wrote: | | LakerSanity wrote: | | J.C. Smith wrote: | | augus7 wrote: | | Julius may never hit the star pinnacle that Ben will, but if he can be a solid 17/10/5 guy |
He has been putting up close to that over his past 7 games: 15.3 points, 9.7 rebounds, 4.7 assists. I don't think those numbers are flukes, he's going to continue to improve. Once his jumper becomes more reliable he'll see a bump to his scoring. |
I don't think its a sure thing Simmons will be have a better career than Randle either. Randle has a scorer's mindset and alpha mentality. I'm not sure one can say the same for Simmons. Assuming he reaches his potential, that's the difference between Simmons being in Lebron's class and Simmons being another Lamar Odom.
Conversely, I have no problem seeing Randle getting to 20+ PPG per game during the prime of his career. If I had to bet, I'd say Simmons gets there too, but I have my doubts as well. |
I'm very interested to see what Simmons does when he finally plays. He can't shoot worth a lick. When Randle got injured, he at least worked on his body. Shed bad weight and put on all sorts of muscle. That alone shows dedication. We'll see if Simmons has the mentality to improve himself or if he doesn't. If he does, the sky's the limit. If not, well, we've seen that before in other players over the years. |
Randle was also out for a full season. Simmons won't be out that long, so it's not really a fair comparison in that sense.
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:01 am Post subject: |
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DLO/Jules synergy will be an interesting one in the years to come. Add Ingram and I think you have a really nice trio that fits together perfectly.
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22
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| The Randle - Simmons battle is something I look forward to in the future. Until I see Simmons against NBA comp I can't project but I def like Randle's chances. I think he has the edge mentally and on the defensive end going from I what I see rn |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | The Randle - Simmons battle is something I look forward to in the future. Until I see Simmons against NBA comp I can't project but I def like Randle's chances. I think he has the edge mentally and on the defensive end going from I what I see rn |
I think he can guard a guy like Simmons due to his footspeed. Most traditional PFs will have a hard time keeping up with him.
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levon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | The Randle - Simmons battle is something I look forward to in the future. Until I see Simmons against NBA comp I can't project but I def like Randle's chances. I think he has the edge mentally and on the defensive end going from I what I see rn |
I think he can guard a guy like Simmons due to his footspeed. Most traditional PFs will have a hard time keeping up with him. |
We also saw that when engaged, despite his man defense concerns, Nance would have some success guarding him as well. I don't know, something tells me he has less of a scoring game than Randle when he started out. It's not just jumpers-- some of the one-handed shots he was putting up in Summer League were absurdly off. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | The Randle - Simmons battle is something I look forward to in the future. Until I see Simmons against NBA comp I can't project but I def like Randle's chances. I think he has the edge mentally and on the defensive end going from I what I see rn |
I think he can guard a guy like Simmons due to his footspeed. Most traditional PFs will have a hard time keeping up with him. |
We also saw that when engaged, despite his man defense concerns, Nance would have some success guarding him as well. I don't know, something tells me he has less of a scoring game than Randle when he started out. It's not just jumpers-- some of the one-handed shots he was putting up in Summer League were absurdly off. |
Simmons's passing abilities are out of this world. But I think he can be game planned.
His jumper is worse than Jules's at this point, but he's a more fluid passer than Jules. Should be an interesting rivalry.
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levon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | levon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | The Randle - Simmons battle is something I look forward to in the future. Until I see Simmons against NBA comp I can't project but I def like Randle's chances. I think he has the edge mentally and on the defensive end going from I what I see rn |
I think he can guard a guy like Simmons due to his footspeed. Most traditional PFs will have a hard time keeping up with him. |
We also saw that when engaged, despite his man defense concerns, Nance would have some success guarding him as well. I don't know, something tells me he has less of a scoring game than Randle when he started out. It's not just jumpers-- some of the one-handed shots he was putting up in Summer League were absurdly off. |
Simmons's passing abilities are out of this world. But I think he can be game planned.
His jumper is worse than Jules's at this point, but he's a more fluid passer than Jules. Should be an interesting rivalry. |
What I saw of Simmons' passing was impressive, but I think we should be a bit more conservative with our assessment of his game until we see how many of those passes, or what kinds of passes, he can get off against NBA defenses. |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | levon wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | 22 wrote: | | The Randle - Simmons battle is something I look forward to in the future. Until I see Simmons against NBA comp I can't project but I def like Randle's chances. I think he has the edge mentally and on the defensive end going from I what I see rn |
I think he can guard a guy like Simmons due to his footspeed. Most traditional PFs will have a hard time keeping up with him. |
We also saw that when engaged, despite his man defense concerns, Nance would have some success guarding him as well. I don't know, something tells me he has less of a scoring game than Randle when he started out. It's not just jumpers-- some of the one-handed shots he was putting up in Summer League were absurdly off. |
Simmons's passing abilities are out of this world. But I think he can be game planned.
His jumper is worse than Jules's at this point, but he's a more fluid passer than Jules. Should be an interesting rivalry. |
What I saw of Simmons' passing was impressive, but I think we should be a bit more conservative with our assessment of his game until we see how many of those passes, or what kinds of passes, he can get off against NBA defenses. |
Sure, but elite passing vision is elite passing vision. It would be an adjustment on his part but he will have that passing skill. It's the other part of his game (inability to shoot, reticence to score) that will be bigger deficits.
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KeepItRealOrElse
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Simmons is literally Randle with more natural/physical gifts. Although, I will say - what makes him special can also be his team's downfall. He was the most ISO-centric player I've ever seen in Summer league. And was the same at LSU. He stifles plays because he can't shoot, then pulls the ball back out to 30 feet and attacks downhill - literally this is his preference by farrr.
He can be utilized well in a modern Offense - playmaker on short rolls in P/R, or running the 4/5 P/R.
And he's also probably going to be a better finisher than Randle ( who'm still needs to keep this good finishing going and prove he's legit at it. He's more athletic this year so some improvement is here to stay for sure)
Simmons passing is the best I've ever seen.. I think.. It's not just his vision but it's the crazy releases, and angles, perfection of bounce passes. He's like a 6'10 Jason Williams passing it, it's spectacular, and he never misses an open man. He sees guys coming open obserdly early...
His shooting and his defense, probably on par with Randle at the same age... Maybe better shooting at the same age, he knocked a few down in SL. I'm not convinced he's not as good of a shooter as Randle right now
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Fruscas
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Loving Randle this season, great decision making, scoring and playmaking so far. Just needs to up his defensive intensity a bit and we're golden.
Really really impressive, our best player right now |
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nash
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| levon wrote: |
Simmons's passing abilities are out of this world. |
I was also impressed, but Simmons, Dlo and previously the White Chocolate are players that use to make some fancy no look passes so it catches our eyes, but I'm not going to underestimate what Julius is doing, his passes are usually simple, but efficient hitting the right man on the right situation. He is also becoming a master of making a pass and setting a screen on the same play when his defender don't follow him. |
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Chronicle
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:54 am Post subject: |
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simmons sucks
GO LAKERS
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| KeepItRealOrElse wrote: | Simmons is literally Randle with more natural/physical gifts. Although, I will say - what makes him special can also be his team's downfall. He was the most ISO-centric player I've ever seen in Summer league. And was the same at LSU. He stifles plays because he can't shoot, then pulls the ball back out to 30 feet and attacks downhill - literally this is his preference by farrr.
He can be utilized well in a modern Offense - playmaker on short rolls in P/R, or running the 4/5 P/R.
And he's also probably going to be a better finisher than Randle ( who'm still needs to keep this good finishing going and prove he's legit at it. He's more athletic this year so some improvement is here to stay for sure)
Simmons passing is the best I've ever seen.. I think.. It's not just his vision but it's the crazy releases, and angles, perfection of bounce passes. He's like a 6'10 Jason Williams passing it, it's spectacular, and he never misses an open man. He sees guys coming open obserdly early...
His shooting and his defense, probably on par with Randle at the same age... Maybe better shooting at the same age, he knocked a few down in SL. I'm not convinced he's not as good of a shooter as Randle right now |
Comparing their respective abilities to shoot is like trying to figure out who is more of a virgin between Dr. Buss and Hugh Hefner.
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