magic was on a team that drafted extremely well and cap was already here. Its a more organic setup. same with kobe. Guys sometimes would want to win with more of an organic setup. yes they hope that setup has more great players in it. But a lot of guys would not want to join forces with the teams they just lost to, or try to form super teams constantly so they can just run over the nba. some guys do like the challenge. we're not talking about guys past their primes in ring chasing mode.
I expect people to act in their own self-interest. They'll stay if it's in their own self-interest; they leave if that's in their self-interest.
When stars leave, they tend to go to teams with lot of talent -- Aldridge to the Spurs; Durant to the Warriors; Lebron to the Cavs.
MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird and most of the older greats weren't in comparable situtations. Most of them started their careers on great teams where they won rings before they have a chance to become free agents. Because of the length of contracts, most of them had few chances to move in their prime, and it wasn't in their self-interest to leave.
Today is a completely different era. Stars make a lot more money and can move around a lot more often. They don't have the same pressure to be in big media markets, making it even easier for them to move.
I don't think Lebron, Durant and Aldridge are any different than Kobe, Magic and Bird. Their situations were simply different.
Last edited by activeverb on Wed May 24, 2017 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
Yup, Scottie has talked Lebron down ever since he did that radio interview in 2011 and declared Lebron “may be the greatest player of all time.” Scottie got so much blowback from MJ fans he’s been backtracking ever since.
Riiiiiiiiiight.....
I'm sure THAT's the reason....
Pippen has been complementary of both Kobe and LeBron as compared to MJ. So why not just leave it at that?
I swear, some of you come off really defensive about this. Always an excuse up your sleeve whenever someone says something complementary about Kobe.
Kobe killed the Spurs and Kings in the WCF. If there was such a thing as WCF MVP, he would've won it at least once during the threepeat run.
When both teams were double and triple teaming Shaq? Leaving Kobe one on one coverage. And no player could guard Kobe one on one. That is how teams win, not individual players.
Meh, 2008 he had no shaq and still destroyed the Spurts. I don't see how this argument holds any water.
Yup, Scottie has talked Lebron down ever since he did that radio interview in 2011 and declared Lebron “may be the greatest player of all time.” Scottie got so much blowback from MJ fans he’s been backtracking ever since.
Riiiiiiiiiight.....
I'm sure THAT's the reason....
Pippen has been complementary of both Kobe and LeBron as compared to MJ. So why not just leave it at that?
I swear, some of you come off really defensive about this. Always an excuse up your sleeve whenever someone says something complementary about Kobe.
Here's the difference between us: To you, this is all about Kobe. To me, this is all about being amused by the contradictory, illogical, and hypocritical blather that comes out of athlete's mouths.
And I've pointed out the same stupid blather when it's praising Lebron. It's just that people don't notice or remark on that, because it doesn't upset them.
Lebron made the Finals with literally nothing around him in his first stint with the Cavs.
Kobe only won with Shaq and then Pau/Odom/Bynum too.
I disagree. Lebron is better than Kobe mainly because of his overall impact on the team. There's a reason he's made so many finals. Only Magic compares to Lebron in terms of team impact imo.
i would agree with you just based off the numbers but in context it just wasnt the same. if you put lebron with same teams hes always had in the west i think he might have one less title. Put Kobe with same teams in the east and i think he at least puts up similar numbers to what Lebron os doing. I mean, look what he did to the Magic. Kobe woukd have done silly things in the east.
Completely disagree. Kobe would not take the Cavs far the way Lebron has. Lebron's impact is exactly as the previous poster said. The only Lebron scenario where I could see Kobe doing well is in Miami with Wade and Bosh, and we're talking Kobe in his prime.
This is not a knock on Kobe, it's the way they are as players. Lebron is more Magic, Kobe is more MJ. Magic and Lebron will always be able to do more with less. I'm am sure of this. Kobe would not be able to take the Cavs to finals with nothing like Lebron did in in 2007. Kobe and Irving would not work either, they're too much the same.
I love Magic, but when did he really have to do more with less? He walked into a team with Kareem and added another no. 1 pick after winning two titles. The only year you can make this argument for him is 1991.
It's true that most of Magic's teams were loaded, but the league was different. Those were superteams playing against other superteams. All the top teams were loaded. There was parity at the top, as opposed nowadays when realistically only one or two teams (even three is stretching it) really have a shot.
I also noted that lebron always loses games to get to the easiest path....every year.
I'm not sure that that's true, but if it is that's actually brilliant. If you could purposefully lose games and as a result give your team an easier path and a greater chance for success, why wouldn't you?
you asked and I'll answer.
The same reason some greats of yesteryear would have never left their team in their prime when they almost beat an opponent to end up on said opponents team(durant). Which is why some greats of yesteryear in their prime would have never joined forces with multiple superstars of other teams to win a ring. Some people, not all. But some Thrive on competition. Some people just want to win. And if winning to them means they need to have all of the stars on their team and do what they can to avoid certain teams when the playoffs roles around. you know the teams that give them the most trouble. Then thats what they will do. because to them. Its not about competing as much as its about winning.
Guys like kobe wanted the to beat the highest level of competition.
Me personally, If someone showed me my future and they said you have two choices play the best and lose without any rings or play 8th graders and win multiple rings. I would choose to take those L's. Why? because I believe iron sharpens iron. the better the comp, the better i play. some legends lived by the same philosophy. They really wanted to know for themselves and show the world how good they were. Others would have rather played 8th graders as long as they get that ring they could care less about the comp.
Don't attribute those guys not leaving for other teams as some kind of moral superiority. The rules and economics of the NBA were completely different back then, and they often didn't have the ability or opportunity to move freely to stacked teams (one example was that before 1988, free agency basically didn't exist and if a team wanted to sign another team's "free agent", they would have to negotiate compensation for the team losing the player), or if they did have it, they couldn't be properly compensated. Contract lengths also tended to be longer back then, which players would accept for their own financial security, which also reduced free agency opportunity. If Barkley or Malone or any of many stars who weren't able to win a ring had an opportunity to sign with stacked teams while in their prime for the money they wanted, the vast majority of them probably would have taken it.
Lebron made the Finals with literally nothing around him in his first stint with the Cavs.
Kobe only won with Shaq and then Pau/Odom/Bynum too.
I disagree. Lebron is better than Kobe mainly because of his overall impact on the team. There's a reason he's made so many finals. Only Magic compares to Lebron in terms of team impact imo.
i would agree with you just based off the numbers but in context it just wasnt the same. if you put lebron with same teams hes always had in the west i think he might have one less title. Put Kobe with same teams in the east and i think he at least puts up similar numbers to what Lebron os doing. I mean, look what he did to the Magic. Kobe woukd have done silly things in the east.
Completely disagree. Kobe would not take the Cavs far the way Lebron has. Lebron's impact is exactly as the previous poster said. The only Lebron scenario where I could see Kobe doing well is in Miami with Wade and Bosh, and we're talking Kobe in his prime.
This is not a knock on Kobe, it's the way they are as players. Lebron is more Magic, Kobe is more MJ. Magic and Lebron will always be able to do more with less. I'm am sure of this. Kobe would not be able to take the Cavs to finals with nothing like Lebron did in in 2007. Kobe and Irving would not work either, they're too much the same.
I love Magic, but when did he really have to do more with less? He walked into a team with Kareem and added another no. 1 pick after winning two titles. The only year you can make this argument for him is 1991.
It's true that most of Magic's teams were loaded, but the league was different. Those were superteams playing against other superteams. All the top teams were loaded. There was parity at the top, as opposed nowadays when realistically only one or two teams (even three is stretching it) really have a shot.
I agree. And I wasn't trying to take anything away from Magic. He's in my top 3 all-time. But the narrative that he made his teammates better just isn't accurate. The Lakers were stacked.
Joined: 04 May 2017 Posts: 3078 Location: The Left Coast
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:26 am Post subject:
[quote="MickMgl"][quote="KBH"]
Runway8 wrote:
LakesGnrLake wrote:
silkwilkes wrote:
Lebron made the Finals with literally nothing around him in his first stint with the Cavs.
Kobe only won with Shaq and then Pau/Odom/Bynum too.
I disagree. Lebron is better than Kobe mainly because of his overall impact on the team. There's a reason he's made so many finals. Only Magic compares to Lebron in terms of team impact imo.
i would agree with you just based off the numbers but in context it just wasnt the same. if you put lebron with same teams hes always had in the west i think he might have one less title. Put Kobe with same teams in the east and i think he at least puts up similar numbers to what Lebron os doing. I mean, look what he did to the Magic. Kobe woukd have done silly things in the east.
Completely disagree. Kobe would not take the Cavs far the way Lebron has. Lebron's impact is exactly as the previous poster said. The only Lebron scenario where I could see Kobe doing well is in Miami with Wade and Bosh, and we're talking Kobe in his prime.
This is not a knock on Kobe, it's the way they are as players. Lebron is more Magic, Kobe is more MJ. Magic and Lebron will always be able to do more with less. I'm am sure of this. Kobe would not be able to take the Cavs to finals with nothing like Lebron did in in 2007. Kobe and Irving would not work either, they're too much the same.
I whole heartedly disagree about your "Lebron 2007" point about how Kobe wouldn't be able to lead those Cavs to the Finals. Which team would you say was better that 06-07 season? A Kobe-less Lakers team or a Lebron-less Cavs team. The Cavs were better. The year before, the Lakers nearly pulled off an unbelievable upset against the 2nd seed Suns and were just a rebound away in game 6 to move on to the next round. Those Suns teams were WAY MORE talented than any team Lebron faced in the East (and now for that matter). And don't bring up the Pistons, they were old and on their last legs. My point is, for you to say that Kobe couldn't do that in 2007 is strange, given that Lebron's roster that year was better than Kobe's. You switch those two in their respective conferences and Kobe would be cake walking every year to the Finals regardless of what team he played for. Lebron would have had to go through the Spurs, Rockets, Mavs, Nuggets, Blazers, etc. back in those days. That season, the Lakers were 42-40 in the regular season and the Cavs were 50-32. Only 12 games better in a much easier conference?
And Lebron made it to the finals in a weak east in 2007.
Pistons were over the hill. Celtics big 3 wasn't formed yet.
The west has definitely been stronger. On the other hand Lebron's teams did have to go through at least one eastern team that led the entire league in wins and at least three times he encountered the #1 in defense in the league during the eastern playoffs.
magic was on a team that drafted extremely well and cap was already here. Its a more organic setup. same with kobe. Guys sometimes would want to win with more of an organic setup. yes they hope that setup has more great players in it. But a lot of guys would not want to join forces with the teams they just lost to, or try to form super teams constantly so they can just run over the nba. some guys do like the challenge. we're not talking about guys past their primes in ring chasing mode.
I expect people to act in their own self-interest. They'll stay if it's in their own self-interest; they leave if that's in their self-interest.
When stars leave, they tend to go to teams with lot of talent -- Aldridge to the Spurs; Durant to the Warriors; Lebron to the Cavs.
MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird and most of the older greats weren't in comparable situtations. Most of them started their careers on great teams where they won rings before they have a chance to become free agents. Because of the length of contracts, most of them had few chances to move in their prime, and it wasn't in their self-interest to leave.
Today is a completely different era. Stars make a lot more money and can move around a lot more often. They don't have the same pressure to be in big media markets, making it even easier for them to move.
I don't think Lebron, Durant and Aldridge are any different than Kobe, Magic and Bird. Their situations were simply different.
now didnt i say not the old ring chasers? lol. and then you start talking about aldridge. you do realize aldridge is on ring chasing mode. no he isnt super old but he's surely in ring chasing mode at this point of his career. he gave it a good ole college try and it didnt work so he went elsewhere.
the spurs prior to him going their were not some type of juggernaut team with old man timmy retiring the year after. They had one superstar in KL. thats it. the other big three are all old now, tony looks like he's cooked too at this point.
So i dont even see the aldridge move as a guy running from a challenge.
I have no issues with a star player being sick and tired of playing for a loser. i loved minny KG. But they had a couple of years and that was it. the guy was rotting over their. So i was happy he got out of town and got on a good team. He tried it the hard way and found it didnt work and left for greener pastures before he got to old to contribute.
nothing is wrong with that. same for ray leaving seattle.
But when you're as good as a prime kobe, or bron, or magic, or shaq, etc. if you start talking about teamming up with 2 more other stars. i'm like really dude... do you really need that much help? if so, then dont get mad when i say you're not as great as those who didnt need that much help. Or at worst at least they were not constantly begging for that much help. I mean the same bron yall are talking about was crying to the cavs FO about I need even MORE HELP. bruh... you have 2 stars on your team.
imagine jordan with rodman, pippen,etc. saying I need even more help. That doesn't even compute. Kobe was thinking about leaving shaq in order to prove he didnt need him to win a few. Thats legendary competitive spirit. this is something bron lacks. yes he's a legend. but he lacks that legendary top 5 dead or alive competitive spirit. and there's no way to sugar coat it or talk about stats or talk about records broken that will change that.
Joined: 04 May 2017 Posts: 3078 Location: The Left Coast
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject:
activeverb wrote:
Krispy Kreme wrote:
The EAST has pretty much been a joke since 2011.
And Lebron made it to the finals in a weak east in 2007.
Pistons were over the hill. Celtics big 3 wasn't formed yet.
The west has definitely been stronger. On the other hand Lebron's teams did have to go through at least one eastern team that led the entire league in wins and at least three times he encountered the #1 in defense in the league during the eastern playoffs.
Wouldn't it be easier for a Eastern team to post the most wins in the league since they play Eastern teams the majority of the time? Same logic for top rated defense too?
And Lebron made it to the finals in a weak east in 2007.
Pistons were over the hill. Celtics big 3 wasn't formed yet.
The west has definitely been stronger. On the other hand Lebron's teams did have to go through at least one eastern team that led the entire league in wins and at least three times he encountered the #1 in defense in the league during the eastern playoffs.
you're talking about the c's when they were also over the hill and playing in the ultra weak east boosting up their defensive stats on the terrible offensive minded eastern conf.
Lebron did not and was not going to be the C's big 3+1 when they first formed and beat the lakers in the finals. He beat them once age caught up with most of them and he had 2 other superstars on the team.
bron beat okc with 2 superstar kids who were still mentally too young. while bron had a team with 3 stars on it. so on paper the heat won that from the jump.
bron was afraid of the spurs and needed to recruit even more help to beat them in ray allen to add to the other 2 stars. as if 3 stars isnt enough.
Bron has never once won a ring where he wasnt the obvious choice to win it all due to his team on paper being better than the other team. some will say what about gstate. i will say what about Draymond green missing that game, then watching iggy have back spasms for the same game he missed and watching Bogut go down with an injury. so now you have games where your facilitators (all 3 were facilitators) all down or out and you have your 3 defenders out(bogut was a solid point defender).
So once again a team of Love, Kyrie, Bron should be Missing draymond, or hurt iggy, and injured bogut, curry and klay.
dont bring up "but but but the cavs were hurt the year before." no one has called steph curry a top 5 or 6 player of all time. No one has compared steph to jordan/kobe.
And Lebron made it to the finals in a weak east in 2007.
Pistons were over the hill. Celtics big 3 wasn't formed yet.
The west has definitely been stronger. On the other hand Lebron's teams did have to go through at least one eastern team that led the entire league in wins and at least three times he encountered the #1 in defense in the league during the eastern playoffs.
Wouldn't it be easier for a Eastern team to post the most wins in the league since they play Eastern teams the majority of the time? Same logic for top rated defense too?
exactly.
you're beating up on weak competition more often than not being a EC team with talent.
the moment you get 2 to 3 stars on your team in the East, you're automatically going to the ECF's. they might as well skip the first 2 rds.
magic was on a team that drafted extremely well and cap was already here. Its a more organic setup. same with kobe. Guys sometimes would want to win with more of an organic setup. yes they hope that setup has more great players in it. But a lot of guys would not want to join forces with the teams they just lost to, or try to form super teams constantly so they can just run over the nba. some guys do like the challenge. we're not talking about guys past their primes in ring chasing mode.
I expect people to act in their own self-interest. They'll stay if it's in their own self-interest; they leave if that's in their self-interest.
When stars leave, they tend to go to teams with lot of talent -- Aldridge to the Spurs; Durant to the Warriors; Lebron to the Cavs.
MJ, Kobe, Magic, Bird and most of the older greats weren't in comparable situtations. Most of them started their careers on great teams where they won rings before they have a chance to become free agents. Because of the length of contracts, most of them had few chances to move in their prime, and it wasn't in their self-interest to leave.
Today is a completely different era. Stars make a lot more money and can move around a lot more often. They don't have the same pressure to be in big media markets, making it even easier for them to move.
I don't think Lebron, Durant and Aldridge are any different than Kobe, Magic and Bird. Their situations were simply different.
now didnt i say not the old ring chasers? lol. and then you start talking about aldridge. you do realize aldridge is on ring chasing mode. no he isnt super old but he's surely in ring chasing mode at this point of his career. he gave it a good ole college try and it didnt work so he went elsewhere.
the spurs prior to him going their were not some type of juggernaut team with old man timmy retiring the year after. They had one superstar in KL. thats it. the other big three are all old now, tony looks like he's cooked too at this point.
So i dont even see the aldridge move as a guy running from a challenge.
I have no issues with a star player being sick and tired of playing for a loser. i loved minny KG. But they had a couple of years and that was it. the guy was rotting over their. So i was happy he got out of town and got on a good team. He tried it the hard way and found it didnt work and left for greener pastures before he got to old to contribute.
nothing is wrong with that. same for ray leaving seattle.
But when you're as good as a prime kobe, or bron, or magic, or shaq, etc. if you start talking about teamming up with 2 more other stars. i'm like really dude... do you really need that much help? if so, then dont get mad when i say you're not as great as those who didnt need that much help. Or at worst at least they were not constantly begging for that much help. I mean the same bron yall are talking about was crying to the cavs FO about I need even MORE HELP. bruh... you have 2 stars on your team.
imagine jordan with rodman, pippen,etc. saying I need even more help. That doesn't even compute. Kobe was thinking about leaving shaq in order to prove he didnt need him to win a few. Thats legendary competitive spirit. this is something bron lacks. yes he's a legend. but he lacks that legendary top 5 dead or alive competitive spirit. and there's no way to sugar coat it or talk about stats or talk about records broken that will change that.
this is the main point you bring up. there's nothing "wrong" with doing the superteam stuff and ring chasing. it's not a moral or ethical issue. the issue is basically trying to have your cake and eat it too. You can't take the easy way out, and then demand that you are better than someone who didn't take the easy way out. Durant is the same on okc or warriors, he's very good, doing nothing wrong on either team. but durant can't go to westbrook and brag about how good his team is, and how successful they are compared to okc. and same goes double for lebron. same for aldridge. same reason why gp's ring is largely forgettable; his "failed" attempt in the 90s is far more memorable.
and these warriors and cavs are a different type of superteam than the old lakers and celtics or bulls even. when you combine their ages and prime-ness of all of them, and just the sheer quantity of stars on each team, it's unprecedented.
LeBron's narrative was already written since before he even came into the league. He's been positioned to never fail. He's the guy that the media handpicked to succeed MJ, and they have a lot riding on him in order to validate the post MJ GOAT vacancy. There will always be two narratives ready to go for LeBron going into any scenario, one for each outcome, and neither of them being negative. I've accepted this a long time ago, and doesn't really bother me. What's disengenious is when folks act like he doesn't have a big cushion.
here's what happens. if bron had to play in the west.
he would have to travel further (phil jackson already talked about why his bulls were so good and the less travel being in the chi was a part of it). that travel does bother you. private/chartered flight or not.
in addition. he would've played better comp. doing this night in and night out fatigues a player. not just for the next game but for the future. the harder you have to play for more games within each season and more games in the offs. the less likely you will be physically able to sustain the same finals run he has. you remember how tired the kobe,odom, gasol lakers looked when dallas spanked us? well that would be bron if he played in the west.
it could've easily been jordan if he played in the west as well.
And yeah he'd have to play better competition, but he's had better numbers vs. the West, and are you really going to assume LeBron get's fatigued easily? Come on, bro. Surely you can *at the very least* admit his durability and endurance is nothing short of legendary.
I'm not saying the East is better or anything, but you can't write off the huge discepancy between LeBron and Kobe's stats because he plays in the East
Joined: 03 Mar 2012 Posts: 2808 Location: Upland, California
Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 8:22 pm Post subject:
So much insecurity on all-time rankings, really who gives a (bleep). Kobe gave us 5 rings, that's all I care about. Give credit where it's due, Lebron is an all time great. They both are.
If you will look at players(they have more credibility), majority of them pick Kobe as better than Lebron.
No, they do not have more credibility. Their job is to play basketball, not analyze it.
They fact that they actually played gives them a deeper perspective.
Again, their job is to play basketball, not analyze, rate or rank players. Call me crazy but I'd listen to someone who dedicates their career to doing just that
So much insecurity on all-time rankings, really who gives a (bleep). Kobe gave us 5 rings, that's all I care about. Give credit where it's due, Lebron is an all time great. They both are.
here's what happens. if bron had to play in the west.
he would have to travel further (phil jackson already talked about why his bulls were so good and the less travel being in the chi was a part of it). that travel does bother you. private/chartered flight or not.
in addition. he would've played better comp. doing this night in and night out fatigues a player. not just for the next game but for the future. the harder you have to play for more games within each season and more games in the offs. the less likely you will be physically able to sustain the same finals run he has. you remember how tired the kobe,odom, gasol lakers looked when dallas spanked us? well that would be bron if he played in the west.
it could've easily been jordan if he played in the west as well.
And yeah he'd have to play better competition, but he's had better numbers vs. the West, and are you really going to assume LeBron get's fatigued easily? Come on, bro. Surely you can *at the very least* admit his durability and endurance is nothing short of legendary.
I'm not saying the East is better or anything, but you can't write off the huge discepancy between LeBron and Kobe's stats because he plays in the East
Yeah, a lot of this is just silliness. Let's take the fairly trivial issue of travel. No matter how far you go, you still have to get to and from the airport and do all the things that are required with any plane trip. The notion that needing to spend an extra 45 minutes aboard a chartered flight is some taxing detriment that provides a significant advantage to your competitors is ridiculous.
But isn't that the GOAT discussion in a nutshell? The really significant stuff has all been worked out. So people who are trying to make a case for their guy latch onto the trivial and blow it all out of proportion.
It's like two guys who each have $1 billion arguing who is richer based on the number of stamps in their wallet.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum