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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
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In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.


I don't find these things difficult to differentiate. Roy Moore is accused of much worse things than Franken. One deserves to lose his Senate seat and the other deserves to go to prison. That Democrats all universally believe the Roy Moore accusers and not the Franken accusers I think speaks for itself. I don't think its a huge leap to believe 7 people with similar stories. The leap is in believing they're all lying just cuz.


I started out with a problem specifically with the first accusation on the merits, and there are a lot of demonstrable misrepresentations in it as it turns out. I have a problem with some of the other accusers, but can't really say on some of the others. Fwiw, I don't have a blanket of belief with all of Moore's accusers either, and it was his own statements that do it for me, as well as the background witnesses of his habits. If the first accuser had misrepresented a bunch of things, and there were suspicious issues with some others and no other corroboration, there would be good call for skepticism in his case too, given the political issues at play.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:07 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.


I don't find these things difficult to differentiate. Roy Moore is accused of much worse things than Franken. One deserves to lose his Senate seat and the other deserves to go to prison. That Democrats all universally believe the Roy Moore accusers and not the Franken accusers I think speaks for itself. I don't think its a huge leap to believe 7 people with similar stories. The leap is in believing they're all lying just cuz.


Devil's advocate - if you have nefarious motives (whatever they are), you never experienced anything and you want to be believed that you actually did, would you tell a story that falls within a pattern or create completely new allegations from left field? With Franken, this question may be especially appropriate where the first accuser has been proven to lack credibility while having suspect motives (both politically and publicity based).

We shouldn't promote a culture which automatically doubts the accuser and believes the alleged perpetrator, but we also do not want to promote a culture that does the opposite. The problem is that, right now, because we've doubted and silenced the accusers for so long that we have to give accusers more of the benefit of the doubt than we would otherwise if we were truly objective. It may be the only way to get us to a place where people are truly objective, and stop approaching these things as we have in the past.

Still, this is the wave I am talking about. Ultimately, we need to get to a place where we can be truly objective. However, in the meantime, you hope that the punishment fits the crime, that not too many true victims are dismissed and that not too many false perpetrators are persecuted.


Since "the wave" there have been hundreds of accusations. How many have turned out to be false? I am sure it is merely a coincidence that a thread almost exclusively filled with liberals finds fault with the Franken accusations and seemingly not any others. I fail to see what an ethics committee is going to find in regards to where Al Franken's hands and tongue were in moments where only two people were in a room. If 7 people (and counting) are willing to come forward about your inappropriate behavior you are no longer ok to serve in the Senate. The Senate and the party will live on without Al Franken.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject:

I don't know how many have turned out to be false. Have I experienced false accusations before? Yes. I had a client once who accused a boss of sexual harassment until they produced a security video feed of her giving that same boss felatio in the copy room. There are false accusations out there. Does that stop me from believing people most of the time? No. However, I also am always aware of the possibility people are lying and capable of being objective when I see evidence which undermines their story. The vast majority of the time, people are telling the truth about these things - but, yes, a false accuser does appear every now and then.

The "wave" I am referring to is not the accusations themselves, but the trends in how we approach the accusations. Right now the "wave" is to believe everyone and anyone who accuses anyone of anything. Forty years ago (before we actually started created sexual harassment laws), the "wave" was to reject accusations altogether.

As a separate point, I would also argue that the more accusers who are vindicated even the greater risk that we rush to judgment assuming anyone who is accused is yet just another one who did it. We shouldn't believe the accusations of one person just because someone in a separate incident was proven to be honest.. no more than should we believe a man did not do what he was accused of just because someone else in his similar (yet unrelated position) was exonerated.

I also don't think anyone is rushing to Franken's defense. There is reason to do so which has nothing to do with him being liberal (that does not apply to Moore or Trump). There have also been plenty of liberals who have been accused of harassment and who no one in this thread have defended. Still, Franken is just a means to an end regarding this discussion. Franken's value in this discussion for me is just a tool to illustrate the larger principles above.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I don't know how many have turned out to be false. Have I experienced false accusations before? Yes. I had a client once who accused a boss of sexual harassment until they produced a security video feed of her giving that same boss felatio in the copy room.

This isn't about Franken, nor is it about doubting the accusers. And the "wave" I am referring to is not the accusations themselves, but the trends in how we approach the accusations. Right now the "wave" is to believe everyone and anyone who accuses anyone of anything. Forty years ago (before we actually started created sexual harassment laws), the "wave" was to reject accusations altogether.

And I would argue that the more accusers who are vindicated even the greater risk that we rush to judgment assuming anyone who is accused is yet just another one who did it.

I also don't think anyone is rushing to Franken's defense. There is reason to do so which has nothing to do with him being liberal. And there have been plenty of liberals who have been accused and which no one has defended. Still, Franken is just a means to an end regarding this discussion. Franken's value in this discussion for me is just a tool to illustrate the larger principle.


Thank you.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:26 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
In fact, when the Franken accusations first came out, I made this same point - how things will go from one extreme to the other, and how its hard to not get caught up in the wave.


I don't find these things difficult to differentiate. Roy Moore is accused of much worse things than Franken. One deserves to lose his Senate seat and the other deserves to go to prison. That Democrats all universally believe the Roy Moore accusers and not the Franken accusers I think speaks for itself. I don't think its a huge leap to believe 7 people with similar stories. The leap is in believing they're all lying just cuz.


I started out with a problem specifically with the first accusation on the merits, and there are a lot of demonstrable misrepresentations in it as it turns out. I have a problem with some of the other accusers, but can't really say on some of the others. Fwiw, I don't have a blanket of belief with all of Moore's accusers either, and it was his own statements that do it for me, as well as the background witnesses of his habits. If the first accuser had misrepresented a bunch of things, and there were suspicious issues with some others and no other corroboration, there would be good call for skepticism in his case too, given the political issues at play.


The problem here is if you have issues with one accuser you're left with 6. If you have a problem with 2 of them you're left with 5. How many are too shy or nervous or scared to come forward? How many just don't want the attention or the spotlight? How many know what he is but believe in his politics and the importance of his voice? It's getting to be a lot of people who are just all making it up for fun.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject:

LakerSanity wrote:
I don't know how many have turned out to be false. Have I experienced false accusations before? Yes. I had a client once who accused a boss of sexual harassment until they produced a security video feed of her giving that same boss felatio in the copy room. There are false accusations out there. Does that stop me from believing people most of the time? No. However, I also am always aware of the possibility people are lying and capable of being objective when I see evidence which undermines their story. The vast majority of the time, people are telling the truth about these things - but, yes, a false accuser does appear every now and then.

The "wave" I am referring to is not the accusations themselves, but the trends in how we approach the accusations. Right now the "wave" is to believe everyone and anyone who accuses anyone of anything. Forty years ago (before we actually started created sexual harassment laws), the "wave" was to reject accusations altogether.

As a separate point, I would also argue that the more accusers who are vindicated even the greater risk that we rush to judgment assuming anyone who is accused is yet just another one who did it. We shouldn't believe the accusations of one person just because someone in a separate incident was proven to be honest.. no more than should we believe a man did not do what he was accused of just because someone else in his similar (yet unrelated position) was exonerated.

I also don't think anyone is rushing to Franken's defense. There is reason to do so which has nothing to do with him being liberal (that does not apply to Moore or Trump). There have also been plenty of liberals who have been accused of harassment and who no one in this thread have defended. Still, Franken is just a means to an end regarding this discussion. Franken's value in this discussion for me is just a tool to illustrate the larger principles above.


False accusations do appear from time to time, unfortunately. You're talking to a guy who has been on the bad end of them. But they are rare, and they usually do not come in giant bunches. Liberals have been accused without defense from this particular mob, but typically ones of little consequence. A comedian or an actor doesn't carry the weight of a liberal senator in super scary times. If you are arguing the tenor towards Franken in this thread wouldn't be different if he were a firebrand conservative you're either out of touch or lying.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:39 pm    Post subject:

Let me be clear that I'm prone to believe, based on the number of accusers, that Franken engaged in harassing and/or otherwise sexually inappropriate conduct.

Still is there less evidence against him than Moore? Yes. And, if the allegations are true, is what Moore seems to have done a lot worse than Franken? Yes. These variables should be taken into account in determining the right course of action for Franken. What should not be taken into account is what side of the isle he sits on.

I think there is value to prolonged hearings which not only serve to punish Franken (through public shaming and a potential censure, making no mention of potentially being kicked out of Congress or losing any re-election bid), but to shine a big ole light on harassment and sexual misconduct issues that won't be highlighted otherwise and which will serve as a stark contrast/reminder as to how the Republicans are handling (or failing to handle) their own harassers. I also think that this approach serves the purpose of a resignation (to punish and take these accusations/conduct seriously) without forcing an actual resignation that won't add any more real value past a one or two day news cycle.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
False accusations do appear from time to time, unfortunately. You're talking to a guy who has been on the bad end of them. But they are rare, and they usually do not come in giant bunches. Liberals have been accused without defense from this particular mob, but typically ones of little consequence. A comedian or an actor doesn't carry the weight of a liberal senator in super scary times. If you are arguing the tenor towards Franken in this thread wouldn't be different if he were a firebrand conservative you're either out of touch or lying.


I think the tenor would be different and much less kind... but would my conclusions (or the conclusions of others in this thread) actually be different? I'd like to think not. Your point is well found though, of course, outside of this thread. There are no doubt plenty of people jumping to Franken's defense elsewhere, just ass those on the other side try to protect Moore or Trump regardless of the false equivalency between the three.

As a separate point, not speaking for anyone else, but my urge to come to Louis CK's defense was just as great as my urge to come to Franken's defense. Albeit for different reasons and in different roles, I admired Louis CK much the same way I have Franken. Louis CK is more than just a comedian for most. However, I don't believe I've truly defended either, past pointing out one inconsistent accuser (the first of the Franken accusers).
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
LakerSanity wrote:
I don't know how many have turned out to be false. Have I experienced false accusations before? Yes. I had a client once who accused a boss of sexual harassment until they produced a security video feed of her giving that same boss felatio in the copy room. There are false accusations out there. Does that stop me from believing people most of the time? No. However, I also am always aware of the possibility people are lying and capable of being objective when I see evidence which undermines their story. The vast majority of the time, people are telling the truth about these things - but, yes, a false accuser does appear every now and then.

The "wave" I am referring to is not the accusations themselves, but the trends in how we approach the accusations. Right now the "wave" is to believe everyone and anyone who accuses anyone of anything. Forty years ago (before we actually started created sexual harassment laws), the "wave" was to reject accusations altogether.

As a separate point, I would also argue that the more accusers who are vindicated even the greater risk that we rush to judgment assuming anyone who is accused is yet just another one who did it. We shouldn't believe the accusations of one person just because someone in a separate incident was proven to be honest.. no more than should we believe a man did not do what he was accused of just because someone else in his similar (yet unrelated position) was exonerated.

I also don't think anyone is rushing to Franken's defense. There is reason to do so which has nothing to do with him being liberal (that does not apply to Moore or Trump). There have also been plenty of liberals who have been accused of harassment and who no one in this thread have defended. Still, Franken is just a means to an end regarding this discussion. Franken's value in this discussion for me is just a tool to illustrate the larger principles above.


False accusations do appear from time to time, unfortunately. You're talking to a guy who has been on the bad end of them. But they are rare, and they usually do not come in giant bunches. Liberals have been accused without defense from this particular mob, but typically ones of little consequence. A comedian or an actor doesn't carry the weight of a liberal senator in super scary times. If you are arguing the tenor towards Franken in this thread wouldn't be different if he were a firebrand conservative you're either out of touch or lying.


I admire your passion and conviction, and respect your opinion, and even share the reasonable idea that this forum could be expected to have some partisan bias, but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject:

Quote:
but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...


I will assume you are referring to your assertion that I have been "played."
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:57 pm    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Quote:
but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...


I will assume you are referring to your assertion that I have been "played."


No, it is quite possible to be smart, decent, and we'll intentioned and be played (which would, btw, be the definitional goal of an operation to go after someone like Franken). I know I have been. I don't think you believe what you believe because youre dishonest. And I haven't implied such.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...


I will assume you are referring to your assertion that I have been "played."


No, it is quite possible to be smart, decent, and we'll intentioned and be played (which would, btw, be the definitional goal of an operation to go after someone like Franken). I know I have been. I don't think you believe what you believe because youre dishonest. And I haven't implied such.


Right. I'm just a fool? My comments weren't "insults" nor were they "ad hominem". They were merely pointing out the total lack of consistency when it comes to this issue politically. It really is something how the multiple accusations of a liberal senator inspire so much hand wringing about the fear of false accusations by an entirely liberal community. Total coincidence, I'm sure.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...


I will assume you are referring to your assertion that I have been "played."


No, it is quite possible to be smart, decent, and we'll intentioned and be played (which would, btw, be the definitional goal of an operation to go after someone like Franken). I know I have been. I don't think you believe what you believe because youre dishonest. And I haven't implied such.


Right. I'm just a fool? My comments weren't "insults" nor were they "ad hominem". They were merely pointing out the total lack of consistency when it comes to this issue politically. It really is something how the multiple accusations of a liberal senator inspire so much hand wringing about the fear of false accusations by an entirely liberal community. Total coincidence, I'm sure.


Again, one doesn't need to be a fool to be fooled, it happens all the time, which is why there are so many people in marketing, public relations, and political strategy. I'm a smart guy, and I've been fooled many times
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject:

From my Facebook wall...

Quote:
It is absolutely mind-blowing to me that Democrats can unironically condemn Trump and Roy Moore while defending Bill Clinton and Al Franken. Case in point: Kirsten Gilibrand was instinctively attacked by members of the Democratic Party establishment after she had the unbridled temerity to tepidly suggest that Bill Clinton should maybe have resigned the presidency after having been caught preying on an intern. (Yes, how dare she denounce such behavior after all the Clintons did for her?!)

This is a cult.

Bill Clinton is the one who turned sexual assault into a partisan issue rather than an automatic disqualification from public office. Bill Clinton is the reason why Trump's Access Hollywood tape did not instantly end his presidential ambitions. Bill Clinton *pioneered* the tactic of discrediting victims by casting doubt upon their motivations and characters. Bill Clinton is a rapist. And yet for more than twenty years, Democrats have twisted themselves into pretzels trying to defend this scumbag and justify his actions rather than calling him out as the unrepentant and perpetual predator that he is.

Trump cynically injected Bill Clinton into the conversation every time his own crimes were brought up, and did so to great success. And he was successful because he was actually partially correct-- the Democratic Party and Hillary Clinton had in fact ceded all moral high ground by defending Bill Clinton. To play devil's advocate, Bill Clinton did the same stuff Trump was guilty of and Hillary had abused her position as a feminist icon to defend his behavior and smear his victims, so why shouldn't Republican voters have just seen this as a wash? Why shouldn't they have just blindly fallen in line with their party's nominee when Democrats had done the same exact thing during the Bill Clinton impeachment trial?

Let's walk through a quick recap of how Clinton even got impeached to begin with. As Governor of Arkansas in 1991, he sexually harassed a state employee named Paula Jones, who then filed a civil lawsuit against him in 1994. Within a year of this lawsuit being filed, he began having sexual relations with an intern named Monica Lewinsky. Think about that for a second-- the guy was engaging in more impropriety while being sued for impropriety! And not just that, but while being actively investigated by Kenneth Starr over Whitewater, yet another instance of misconduct! How insane is that?!

He then perjured himself during the Paula Jones lawsuit deposition by lying about not having had sexual relations with Lewinsky, and then tried to defend his lie by literally saying: "It depends on what the meaning of the word is is." This is the level of idiocy, dishonesty, and general creepiness that it took for him to become only the second president in history to be impeached.
Why is it even called the "Lewinsky scandal"? Why make the 22 year old intern the agent in the situation rather than the person with a well-documented history and pattern of predatory behavior who also happened to be the President of the United States? Bill Clinton did more to debase the presidency and embarrass the country than any other president in history not named Nixon or Trump. He should have been thrown out of office.

Instead, Democrats tried to act like his coercion of a 22 year old intern into a sexual relationship was normal and, in the short term, this was successful-- the Republicans lost five seats in the House of Representatives in the 1998 midterm elections and Clinton was acquitted. But people conveniently forget that Al Gore had to distance himself from Clinton during the 2000 presidential campaign in order to avoid being tainted by the scandal. As a result, he was both unable to claim credit for the strong economy while also still being perceived as less moral than Bush due to the negative perception of Clinton rubbing off on him. As a direct consequence of these two factors, Gore lost. So this clown's lack of basic self-control and decency basically cost the Democratic Party two presidential elections and caused the country to have to suffer through George W. Bush and now Trump.

"But Bill Clinton did important things for this country." No! Why do people think this way? Having good policies doesn't make being a sexual predator okay. And it isn't even true! Bill Clinton decimated the social safety net, screwed the working-class with NAFTA, and effectively criminalized being black. He signed the Defense of Marriage Act, allowed hundreds of thousands of Rwandans to be massacred, and directly precipitated the financial crisis by repealing Glass-Steagall. Under Clinton, the Democratic Party went from championing social democracy to championing neoliberalism. Under Clinton, the Democratic Party lost the majority in the House of Representatives for the first time in forty years and did not get it back until twelve years later. He was, by nearly any objective measure, a terrible president whose years in office just happened to coincide with a strong economy.

Same goes for Al Franken. Who cares about whether you like his policy positions or not? Is sexual assault okay as long as the person is on #YourTeam? Is it a spectrum where certain predatory acts are okay as long as some arbitrary line isn't crossed? You either have ethical standards or you don't. None of this ridiculous equivocation should be tolerated.

*All* of these people-- Trump, Moore, Clinton, Franken, and whoever else-- should be removed from elected office, blacklisted by their respective political parties, and thrown in jail, not just the ones we disagree with. Why is this such a radical idea?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:36 am    Post subject:

CandyCanes wrote:
From my Facebook wall...

but while being actively investigated by Kenneth Starr over Whitewater, yet another instance of misconduct! How insane is that?!


That's the point at which my eyes finally rolled at that bull-s.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...


I will assume you are referring to your assertion that I have been "played."


No, it is quite possible to be smart, decent, and we'll intentioned and be played (which would, btw, be the definitional goal of an operation to go after someone like Franken). I know I have been. I don't think you believe what you believe because youre dishonest. And I haven't implied such.


Right. I'm just a fool? My comments weren't "insults" nor were they "ad hominem". They were merely pointing out the total lack of consistency when it comes to this issue politically. It really is something how the multiple accusations of a liberal senator inspire so much hand wringing about the fear of false accusations by an entirely liberal community. Total coincidence, I'm sure.


I'm totally with you on this one, Ocho. As a general rule, when one accuser accuses someone of something, I am always skeptical, and I absorb the details as they come in and try to make an informed judgment in my brain as to whether or not the person is guilty. But I am always skeptical, as if my brain defaults to a civil court's standard of proof for a judgement, if not a criminal court's standard for a conviction. However, when you have multiple accusers that are accusing one person of similar wrongdoing, it is remarkably difficult to believe that all of the accusers are lying, and that it's a conspiracy (because that's what it would have to be). I mean, is it possible? I guess, but it's remarkably unlikely. It's a lot easier for me to believe Jameis Winston or Kobe Bryant (based on the details of those particular cases) than it is Darren Sharper or Bill Cosby or Donald Trump and of course that list goes on and on.

Senator Franken should resign, and I believe that he will do so. Of course, Roy Moore's actions are much more disturbing, and if he does get elected by the people of Alabama, as I expect, then the Senate needs to remove him.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:59 am    Post subject:

non-player zealot wrote:
CandyCanes wrote:
From my Facebook wall...

but while being actively investigated by Kenneth Starr over Whitewater, yet another instance of misconduct! How insane is that?!


That's the point at which my eyes finally rolled at that bull-s.


If you stopped reading there, you missed:

Quote:
So this clown's [Clinton's] lack of basic self-control and decency basically cost the Democratic Party two presidential elections and caused the country to have to suffer through George W. Bush and now Trump.


lol social media pundits
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:46 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...


I will assume you are referring to your assertion that I have been "played."


No, it is quite possible to be smart, decent, and we'll intentioned and be played (which would, btw, be the definitional goal of an operation to go after someone like Franken). I know I have been. I don't think you believe what you believe because youre dishonest. And I haven't implied such.


Right. I'm just a fool? My comments weren't "insults" nor were they "ad hominem". They were merely pointing out the total lack of consistency when it comes to this issue politically. It really is something how the multiple accusations of a liberal senator inspire so much hand wringing about the fear of false accusations by an entirely liberal community. Total coincidence, I'm sure.


Again, one doesn't need to be a fool to be fooled, it happens all the time, which is why there are so many people in marketing, public relations, and political strategy. I'm a smart guy, and I've been fooled many times


Well as the number of accusers continues to mount and Franken resigns today I will happily take my place among the rubes who fail to buy the conspiracy of all these lying women.
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Omar Little
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:55 am    Post subject:

ocho wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Omar Little wrote:
ocho wrote:
Quote:
but bias cuts a lot of ways, and can also tend to lead to poor ad hominem insults to people with reasonable motives and conclusions, right or wrong...


I will assume you are referring to your assertion that I have been "played."


No, it is quite possible to be smart, decent, and we'll intentioned and be played (which would, btw, be the definitional goal of an operation to go after someone like Franken). I know I have been. I don't think you believe what you believe because youre dishonest. And I haven't implied such.


Right. I'm just a fool? My comments weren't "insults" nor were they "ad hominem". They were merely pointing out the total lack of consistency when it comes to this issue politically. It really is something how the multiple accusations of a liberal senator inspire so much hand wringing about the fear of false accusations by an entirely liberal community. Total coincidence, I'm sure.


Again, one doesn't need to be a fool to be fooled, it happens all the time, which is why there are so many people in marketing, public relations, and political strategy. I'm a smart guy, and I've been fooled many times


Well as the number of accusers continues to mount and Franken resigns today I will happily take my place among the rubes who fail to buy the conspiracy of all these lying women.


Fair enough. Just know that the first one was coached by Roger Stone and a buddy to make a completely fugazi story. This was an op.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject:

Tom Arnold Twitter


To put a button on this the only truth about my old pal Leeann Tweeden’s Al Franken story was the picture. The rest was created by KABC colleague & fellow Trump supporter John Phillips & his bud Roger Stone who coached Leeann for weeks to take Al down. Mission accomplished.
7:29 PM - 6 Dec 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject:

Here's the thing that worries me (and relates back to hoopschick's concern about the Democrats not knowing how to get down in the mud and fight back):

There are right-wing groups with tons of money who do nothing but try to dig up dirt on Democrats. They take old speeches, edit them to make them look bad and create faux controversies. They fake abortion clinic videos. They just had a woman go to the Washington Post with a fake story about Roy Moore (she was pretending to be pregnant) in an effort to discredit the Post's stories about the other accusers.

So, here's what I think. As a woman who's been on the receiving end of the whole spectrum of unwanted sexual contact by men, and realizing that almost every woman I know has experienced some degree of this, I believe there is a high probability that a high percentage of members of Congress have something in there background that could be used against them.

I would bet everything I own that right-wing groups are doing that digging as we speak. And I would bet there is no such effort on the Democratic side to do the same.

Because here's where we are: whether you believe Franken's accusers or not, or believe some and not others, or believe he should resign or not, the right-wing only cares about creating more mud with which to bury Democratic politicians while standing 100% firmly behind their own no matter what they did.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:14 am    Post subject:

Omar Little wrote:
Tom Arnold Twitter


To put a button on this the only truth about my old pal Leeann Tweeden’s Al Franken story was the picture. The rest was created by KABC colleague & fellow Trump supporter John Phillips & his bud Roger Stone who coached Leeann for weeks to take Al down. Mission accomplished.
7:29 PM - 6 Dec 2017


I didn't see this until after my post above. But it fit's with my speculation.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject:

GOP understands how to weaponize this stuff. And no, it isn't about rubes. The people easiest to work are people of strong conviction.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:48 am    Post subject:

Why didn't you guys say from the beginning that you had Tom Arnold as a source? I never would have questioned Tom Arnold. Does Tom have dirt on the other 6 too?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject:

Meanwhile, protests erupt throughout the Middle East, resulting from Trump's decision on Jerusalem.
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