Developing youth is the wrong way to go
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chantruong
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject:

If only we traded Kobe and Pau for some unprotected 1st round picks...
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AFireInside619
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject:

chantruong wrote:
If only we traded Kobe and Pau for some unprotected 1st round picks...


We should have. Same with Howard. Dr. Buss had the balls to trade Shaq. Everyone wins.
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Killakobe81
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:54 pm    Post subject:

All the young guys even Lonzo made positive contributions ...
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Bard207
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject:

Aeneas Hunter wrote:
Bard207 wrote:
The above is why I classify the current Celtics as an outlier compared to other teams in the league.


I understand your point, but I think you're looking at it wrong. Ainge made Boston into an outlier. Ainge made the hard moves when he needed to. Ainge made the big trades when the opportunities were there. Ainge made savvy moves in free agency and the draft. Hell, he traded "down" from Fultz to Tatum and got draft picks tossed in. Before that, Brooklyn didn't just send all those draft picks to Boston as a Christmas present.

So yes, Boston is an outlier. The Warriors are an outlier. The Spurs have been an outlier since the late 1990s. So . . . why aren't we an outlier?



I agree that Ainge was the reason for making Boston an outlier. If a team's leadership (owner and FO) is content to just plod along like the majority of the teams in the league, then it is quite difficult to get separation from the crowd.


Before answering your question, some background information that has colored my perspective.


Five significant events that heavily influenced the championships in recent decades.


In chronological order

* Compensation for the signing of Goodrich by the New Orleans Jazz. Goodrich was signed by New Orleans and the compensation package was decided upon afterward. Part of that compensation was the draft pick that eventually became Magic Johnson. The Lakers also won the coin flip against the Bulls to decide which team would pick first.

* Trading with Cleveland for the draft pick that eventually became James Worthy. Again a coin flip was won to get the #1 pick with the Clippers losing the flip.

* Trading for the rights to Kobe Bryant. Jerry West was a step ahead of the league and saw the potential.

* Signing Shaq as a free agent in his mid 20's

* Trading for Pau Gasol



Compensation for losing a free agent was eventually eliminated. So a windfall like the compensation that became Magic isn't going to happen in the future.

Teams still make bad trades, so the trade for the pick that became Worthy could still happen again provided a team fails to put protection on that pick. Since Billy King was abused by Ainge, it has become much more difficult to trade for a first round pick without protection.

Draft rules have changed to the current one and done system. Kobe having exposure in college basketball would have made it just about impossible for West to acquire him for Vlade.

RFA rules have been implemented that make it much more difficult to pry away players coming off of rookie scale contracts. So signing Shaq in his mid 20's wouldn't be possible under the current CBA unless he had played on a qualifying offer contract and became an unrestricted free agent the following year.

Contract years have been shortened, so there is usually enough expiring salary floating around that a team can dump future salary without too much trouble if they want to. The allocation of revenues has also changed and the small market teams aren't quite as financially weak as they used to be. In the current environment, Memphis might still have needed to move Pau Gasol, but the Lakers would have had competition from other teams.



A few years ago, there was a blurb about Jeanie being shocked & disappointed with the losing seasons and saying that it wasn't the Lakers' way (or something similar). I don't know if she was really that naive about the way the NBA really works or said that to build negativity and pressure against Jim.


The team has not come close to duplicating some of the great events of the past.

* Acquiring the picks that became Magic and Worthy

* Signing Shaq in his mid 20's

* Trading Vlade for the rights to Kobe

* Getting a good trade for Pau Gasol


The writeup was done in summer 2012, but the Lakers haven't pulled off many landmark transactions since then other than signing LeBron.

Los Angeles Lakers' 12 Most Fortunate Trades in Team History


Now to your question.

Quote:

So yes, Boston is an outlier. The Warriors are an outlier. The Spurs have been an outlier since the late 1990s. So . . . why aren't we an outlier?


My take is that some in the leadership were unable to recognize that the team was very fortunate with multiple transactions in past decades and that things might not work out as well going forward. It could be said that they had an incredible run of good luck and that it wouldn't last forever.


When Gasol's time with LA was near the end, there was a report that the Lakers rejected an offer of expiring salary and a second round pick for him because they wanted a first round pick. Eventually he left in free agency and the team received no compensation for him.

There was a similar report about Randle last season with the best offer being expiring salary and a second round pick. Randle eventually left and the team received no compensation for him.

They use everything about the hog except the squeal.

When times were good, not getting anything for Gasol and Randle could be shrugged off. Now, they will need every edge that they can get.


They changed people in the FO, but I don't know if the Buss family has accepted that things have changed with the league.

If the edges that they are relying on are

* Past glory and reputation for winning

* Being in LA

* Magic Johnson

then that might not be enough to get the team back to the top.

Complaints about the coaching & player development staff are currently popular in other discussion threads. The team should have one of the top coaching staffs in the league and be at the forefront with analytics. Yet the feeling by many is that they are at best middle of the pack in those areas.

It wouldn't be fair to blame Mitch, Jim, Magic, Pelinka and Jeanie for failing to duplicate the great transactions of the past because so much has changed with the league over the decades.

I do think that they are open to some criticism for being slow to recognize that things have changed and they will have to run a top notch organization from top to bottom to have success.


Quote:

Hell, he traded "down" from Fultz to Tatum and got draft picks tossed in. Before that, Brooklyn didn't just send all those draft picks to Boston as a Christmas present.


In theory, the trade for the 2019 Sacramento first could maybe have been done by the Lakers since the salary for Hibbert wasn't that much lower than the combined salaries of Thompson and Landry.


Even for Ainge, things might be more difficult than it was in the past. Some of the weak FO executives that he preyed upon in the past such as Billy King and Brian Colangelo are no longer in the league and their replacements are going to be careful when negotiating a trade with Boston.
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venturalakersfan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:38 am    Post subject:

AFireInside619 wrote:
chantruong wrote:
If only we traded Kobe and Pau for some unprotected 1st round picks...


We should have. Same with Howard. Dr. Buss had the balls to trade Shaq. Everyone wins.


But not the balls to trade him a year earlier when he likely could have gotten a better package for him
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