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PhiberOptik
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 Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | | awntawn wrote: | The way people are talking around here, you'd think we didn't currently have a better record than the Celtics  |
In this thread.
Tatum = God
Ingram = Ball boy
I kid. But as long as we keep winning enough games to make the playoffs. And he continues to guard the opposing team's best perimeter player. He'll get some recognition...eventually. |
FIFY.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | Ingram has not evolved his game to fit next to LeBron. It shouldn't be the other way around. |
It's not because he doesn't want to do it... it's because he can't shoot from three yet.
I agree we need to find a solution, but it's not because he's playing badly so much as they don't fit well with McGee and Kuzma.
I think the front office is trying to fit a square peg into a round hole in order to avoid killing the confidence of Ingram or Kuzma... but either they need to start shooting from distance or one needs to join the second unit. |
I disagree. If Ingram was willing to adjust his shot selection and be more active off the ball offensively, he’d fit a lot better even without the 3 ball. |
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22
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:26 am Post subject: |
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For some reason the FO and Ingram think he is a go-to-scorer.
That was never going to happen with or without Bron here.
He's an X-factor/Swiss Army knife type player. The sooner all parties involved realize that the better. |
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greenfrog
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | ^ Kuzma's struggled from outside, but he's still a threat from there, and let's not pretend like Brook was lighting it up. Basically it's a swap from Randle to McGee in terms of paint congestion, and I'd argue Randle was far more focused on getting his shot or rebound. |
Ingram needs to do better, but the fact remains that he's forced outside by the combination of Kuzma, LBJ, McGee inside.
LBJ may have developed his outside game, but he's taking the drives that used to go to Ingram... McGee has taken over for Randle... and Kuzma has become LBJ's favorite target inside but as he's not making anything past teardrop/baby hook range... it forces Ingram outside.
I'm only saying this because we shouldn't be blaming Ingram for shooting from midrange as he's not very good at the three ball yet and he's adjusting to his teammates by taking that role.
But bottom line... one of them has to start making threes or Hart or KCP needs to take their place as a starter. Doesn't mean I want them traded... just means I want them to become more proficient at that shot. |
Lebron is taking more 3s per game than KCP did in the starting lineup last season. Same with Kuzma over Brook. In order to make this argument work you'd have to believe that McGee is a downgrade in terms of spacing and paint congestion from Nance/Randle. I just don't see it. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:39 am Post subject: |
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| greenfrog wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | greenfrog wrote: | | ^ Kuzma's struggled from outside, but he's still a threat from there, and let's not pretend like Brook was lighting it up. Basically it's a swap from Randle to McGee in terms of paint congestion, and I'd argue Randle was far more focused on getting his shot or rebound. |
Ingram needs to do better, but the fact remains that he's forced outside by the combination of Kuzma, LBJ, McGee inside.
LBJ may have developed his outside game, but he's taking the drives that used to go to Ingram... McGee has taken over for Randle... and Kuzma has become LBJ's favorite target inside but as he's not making anything past teardrop/baby hook range... it forces Ingram outside.
I'm only saying this because we shouldn't be blaming Ingram for shooting from midrange as he's not very good at the three ball yet and he's adjusting to his teammates by taking that role.
But bottom line... one of them has to start making threes or Hart or KCP needs to take their place as a starter. Doesn't mean I want them traded... just means I want them to become more proficient at that shot. |
Lebron is taking more 3s per game than KCP did in the starting lineup last season. Same with Kuzma over Brook. In order to make this argument work you'd have to believe that McGee is a downgrade in terms of spacing and paint congestion from Nance/Randle. I just don't see it. |
LBJ is the only proficient 3 point threat in the starting lineup right now.
Last year KCP and Brook provided some threat. Makes a big difference between one and two players hitting their threes.
BI did best when put with KCP/Brook/Hart I think... but with only LBJ hitting them it has an effect.
The good news is that we still are winning with such a terrible outside game... if one of Lonzo/Kuzma/BI starts hitting threes we will be in decent shape... if two start hitting... we will be in great shape. |
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:42 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | For some reason the FO and Ingram think he is a go-to-scorer.
That was never going to happen with or without Bron here.
He's an X-factor/Swiss Army knife type player. The sooner all parties involved realize that the better. |
Do you think Jimmy Butler is a go to scorer?
Because JB was worse than Ingram when he was 24 years old... so I'm wondering how you know for a fact that he will never get better at the age of 21. |
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Luminous8
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| matrixskillz wrote: | | Ingram has not evolved his game to fit next to LeBron. It shouldn't be the other way around. |
I actually disagree here, great players should be able to make their talents work around the guys they have. Kobe always had to. He never got to play to his strengths due to roster construction. Yet here we are 15 years later and LBj still won’t try and evolve his game one bit?!? Obviously he’s still great at doing it, but how long does he expect to maintain this level of play as the primary ball handler all the time and just expecting guys to play LeBron ball. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | Ingram has not evolved his game to fit next to LeBron. It shouldn't be the other way around. |
I actually disagree here, great players should be able to make their talents work around the guys they have. Kobe always had to. He never got to play to his strengths due to roster construction. Yet here we are 15 years later and LBj still won’t try and evolve his game one bit?!? Obviously he’s still great at doing it, but how long does he expect to maintain this level of play as the primary ball handler all the time and just expecting guys to play LeBron ball. |
Come on man. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| PhiberOptik wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | | awntawn wrote: | | The way people are talking around here, you'd think we didn't currently have a better record than the Celtics |
In this thread.
Tatum = God
Ingram = Ball boy
I kid. But as long as we keep winning enough games to make the playoffs. And he continues to guard the opposing team's best perimeter player. He'll get some recognition...eventually. |
FIFY. |
No the Ball boy is Lonzo's kid. I'm talking about Ingram.
Lonzo's kid could probably spread the floor a little better than Ingram (and Lonzo). JK JK I kid. Don't @ me.
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | Ingram has not evolved his game to fit next to LeBron. It shouldn't be the other way around. |
I actually disagree here, great players should be able to make their talents work around the guys they have. Kobe always had to. He never got to play to his strengths due to roster construction. Yet here we are 15 years later and LBj still won’t try and evolve his game one bit?!? Obviously he’s still great at doing it, but how long does he expect to maintain this level of play as the primary ball handler all the time and just expecting guys to play LeBron ball. |
Come on man. |
The ball was always in his hands... always no matter who he played with. Yeah sure some seasons he passed a little more but we played Kobe ball ride or die. |
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22
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Sentient Meat wrote: | | 22 wrote: | For some reason the FO and Ingram think he is a go-to-scorer.
That was never going to happen with or without Bron here.
He's an X-factor/Swiss Army knife type player. The sooner all parties involved realize that the better. |
Do you think Jimmy Butler is a go to scorer?
Because JB was worse than Ingram when he was 24 years old... so I'm wondering how you know for a fact that he will never get better at the age of 21. |
Has nothing to do with Butler. I'm looking at Ingram's game, his skillset, and his growth as a player or lack there of.
Too slow and plodding, doesn't have a great first step, shakey slow jumper, not much shake in his handles, sketchy 3 ball, poor rebounder...
I just don't see where he has the advantage over most defenders to get his shot off anytime.
Of course there's always the chance he could improve. That same chance exists for Wes Johnson and Wiggins too. I'm not trying to guarantee he won't ever be an all-star caliber player, he could do it. I just don't think the chances are likely. Yes even though he is only 21. Time will tell
Last edited by 22 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Ingram should definitely adjust to LBJ. Not the other way around. And taking the toughest defensive assignment on the perimeter is him doing that. It's just not the whole picture.
But specifically when talking about Kobe vs. Lebron. Lebron turns every all star big into a floor spacer. Kobe could still dominate without making Pau and Shaq 3pt spot up shooters.
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matrixskillz
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Luminous8 wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | Ingram has not evolved his game to fit next to LeBron. It shouldn't be the other way around. |
I actually disagree here, great players should be able to make their talents work around the guys they have. Kobe always had to. He never got to play to his strengths due to roster construction. Yet here we are 15 years later and LBj still won’t try and evolve his game one bit?!? Obviously he’s still great at doing it, but how long does he expect to maintain this level of play as the primary ball handler all the time and just expecting guys to play LeBron ball. |
we have a 3 year championship window with LBJ. there's not waiting around to wait for ingram to develop into a better fit. we need to win NOW. the difference with kobe is he was usually always surrounded by vets who knew their role.
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| Lucky_Shot wrote: | | BigGameHames wrote: | | Luminous8 wrote: | | matrixskillz wrote: | | Ingram has not evolved his game to fit next to LeBron. It shouldn't be the other way around. |
I actually disagree here, great players should be able to make their talents work around the guys they have. Kobe always had to. He never got to play to his strengths due to roster construction. Yet here we are 15 years later and LBj still won’t try and evolve his game one bit?!? Obviously he’s still great at doing it, but how long does he expect to maintain this level of play as the primary ball handler all the time and just expecting guys to play LeBron ball. |
Come on man. |
The ball was always in his hands... always no matter who he played with. Yeah sure some seasons he passed a little more but we played Kobe ball ride or die. |
The triangle was about as ideal an offense as you could get for Kobe. Sure the Shaq years we worked the post more(for good reason) but the idea that the Kobe wasn’t allowed to play the way he wanted is ridiculous. |
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BigGameHames
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | Ingram should definitely adjust to LBJ. Not the other way around. And taking the toughest defensive assignment on the perimeter is him doing that. It's just not the whole picture.
But specifically when talking about Kobe vs. Lebron. Lebron turns every all star big into a floor spacer. Kobe could still dominate without making Pau and Shaq 3pt spot up shooters. |
Ingram isn’t taking the toughest defensive assignment on a nightly basis.
Last edited by BigGameHames on Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| kikanga wrote: | Ingram should definitely adjust to LBJ. Not the other way around. And taking the toughest defensive assignment on the perimeter is him doing that. It's just not the whole picture.
But specifically when talking about Kobe vs. Lebron. Lebron turns every all star big into a floor spacer. Kobe could still dominate without making Pau and Shaq 3pt spot up shooters. |
But he usually had a big man as a 1A or #2 option.
He never had to share the floor with a true #1/2 option wing player in his prime. (No, Glen "Palin" Rice ain't it  ).
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22
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Ingram should definitely adjust to LBJ. Not the other way around. And taking the toughest defensive assignment on the perimeter is him doing that. It's just not the whole picture.
But specifically when talking about Kobe vs. Lebron. Lebron turns every all star big into a floor spacer. Kobe could still dominate without making Pau and Shaq 3pt spot up shooters. |
But he usually had a big man as a 1A or #2 option.
He never had to share the floor with a true #1/2 option wing player in his prime. (No, Glen "Palin" Rice ain't it ). |
He LOVED playing with Caron and Ariza. Granted they aren't number 2 option players but I think it would have been fine. And he wanted CP3 badly. For that brief time before Nash broke his leg Kobe's efficiency was through the roof |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Ingram should definitely adjust to LBJ. Not the other way around. And taking the toughest defensive assignment on the perimeter is him doing that. It's just not the whole picture.
But specifically when talking about Kobe vs. Lebron. Lebron turns every all star big into a floor spacer. Kobe could still dominate without making Pau and Shaq 3pt spot up shooters. |
But he usually had a big man as a 1A or #2 option.
He never had to share the floor with a true #1/2 option wing player in his prime. (No, Glen "Palin" Rice ain't it ). |
He LOVED playing with Caron and Ariza. Granted they aren't number 2 option players but I think it would have been fine. And he wanted CP3 badly. For that brief time before Nash broke his leg Kobe's efficiency was through the roof |
They were nowhere near #1/2 options at the time (especially Ariza).
I think we all had questions about Kobe/CP3. But I just think Kobe with another high usage wing player would have been interesting to see.
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | For some reason the FO and Ingram think he is a go-to-scorer.
That was never going to happen with or without Bron here.
He's an X-factor/Swiss Army knife type player. The sooner all parties involved realize that the better. |
Therein lies the great debate and the disconnect.
What should he be now?
What can he be?
And are they 2 different players?
Where's Marty when we need him? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:02 am Post subject: |
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I think Lamar Odom may actually be an interesting archetype for BI to adopt right now, but one who plays perimeter defense.
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Sentient Meat
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| 22 wrote: | | Sentient Meat wrote: | | 22 wrote: | For some reason the FO and Ingram think he is a go-to-scorer.
That was never going to happen with or without Bron here.
He's an X-factor/Swiss Army knife type player. The sooner all parties involved realize that the better. |
Do you think Jimmy Butler is a go to scorer?
Because JB was worse than Ingram when he was 24 years old... so I'm wondering how you know for a fact that he will never get better at the age of 21. |
Has nothing to do with Butler. I'm looking at Ingram's game, his skillset, and his growth as a player or lack there of.
Too slow and plodding, doesn't have a great first step, shakey slow jumper, not much shake in his handles, sketchy 3 ball, poor rebounder...
I just don't see where he has the advantage over most defenders to get his shot off anytime.
Of course there's always the chance he could improve. That same chance exists for Wes Johnson and Wiggins too. I'm not trying to guarantee he won't ever be an all-star caliber player, he could do it. I just don't think the chances are likely. Yes even though he is only 21. Time will tell |
Wes Johnson isn't a fair comparison because he came into the league at 23 and never averaged double figures once. We saw first hand what to expect from him. His TS% was sub 50% until he was 26... Ingram shot at 53.6% at 20. Wiggins is a more apt comparison but he didn't improve after his second season... we don't know if Ingram will do the same. It seems like Ingram tries harder on defense and works on his game so I'd guess he does better. As you said time will tell... but I think he'll come good once he gets comfortable with his role on this team. |
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epak
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think Lamar Odom may actually be an interesting archetype for BI to adopt right now, but one who plays perimeter defense. |
Which one?
Young LO?
Or 3 peat LO? |
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yinoma2001
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| epak wrote: | | yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think Lamar Odom may actually be an interesting archetype for BI to adopt right now, but one who plays perimeter defense. |
Which one?
Young LO?
Or 3 peat LO? |
3 peat LO.
Maybe not precisely, but I always thought LO was highly underrated. Could LO with more usage have put up near triple double averages? Yes. But he just did so many things for those teams.
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Lucky_Shot
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | I think Lamar Odom may actually be an interesting archetype for BI to adopt right now, but one who plays perimeter defense. |
LO was a monster perimeter defender especially on help defense, one of the best I've seen. |
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kikanga
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| yinoma2001 wrote: | | kikanga wrote: | Ingram should definitely adjust to LBJ. Not the other way around. And taking the toughest defensive assignment on the perimeter is him doing that. It's just not the whole picture.
But specifically when talking about Kobe vs. Lebron. Lebron turns every all star big into a floor spacer. Kobe could still dominate without making Pau and Shaq 3pt spot up shooters. |
But he usually had a big man as a 1A or #2 option.
He never had to share the floor with a true #1/2 option wing player in his prime. (No, Glen "Palin" Rice ain't it ). |
Will reply in the LBJ thread.
Don't want Omar or CL to beat me up for talking Kobe/LBJ in the Ingram thread.
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