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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
You’re right. I want the players to die


Really, that's your response? But you do want them to risk serious, career threatening, career shortening, career destructive injuries for meaningless regular season games.


They are paid to play in those meaningless games
You’re the one who jumped to life and death scenarios Lol
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Well, the point is if the games and hence revenues were reduced by 25%, all the players would see their salaries go down by 25% -- from the minimum guys to the maximum guys.

So I don't see this as simply an issue of concern to or controlled by the max guys.

To your bigger point, you are absolutely right: Given revenue sharing, the owners and players would the financial pain.


The players will not give up money. So this conversation seems moot


I really don't know if the amount of games is enough of a concern of players for them to ever consider giving up some money to reduce them. If so, I don't know how much they'd give up. I suspect you may be right, but I am hesitant to make any absolute assumptions myself.

And of course, what I laid out is the current CBA, which is always subject to change.
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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:27 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:


Well, the point is if the games and hence revenues were reduced by 25%, all the players would see their salaries go down by 25% -- from the minimum guys to the maximum guys.

So I don't see this as simply an issue of concern to or controlled by the max guys.

To your bigger point, you are absolutely right: Given revenue sharing, the owners and players would the financial pain.


The players will not give up money. So this conversation seems moot


I really don't know if the amount of games is enough of a concern of players for them to ever consider giving up some money to reduce them. If so, I don't know how much they'd give up. I suspect you may be right, but I am hesitant to make any absolute assumptions myself.

And of course, what I laid out is the current CBA, which is always subject to change.


Well put
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:47 pm    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
RG73 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
You’re right. I want the players to die


Really, that's your response? But you do want them to risk serious, career threatening, career shortening, career destructive injuries for meaningless regular season games.


They are paid to play in those meaningless games
You’re the one who jumped to life and death scenarios Lol


Again, the Clippers signed a contract with Kawhi knowing that he would need to miss X # of games per season. Therefore he is paid to play per the terms of what he agreed upon with the team. So he is not, in fact, paid to play in games where he needs to rest or in games that might increase the chance he is not available for the playoffs.

And again, you are ignoring the Kobe scenario (player playing himself into ruin over meaningless games). BI was just another example of a situation where there is an actual disease state that will worsen upon playing. It is an extreme example. But ossification of soft tissue is basically basketball death. Playing on one leg? Come on.

If management agrees to rest players, then those are the terms of their employment. I'm not sure why you can't wrap your head around an employment agreement like this. Maybe in the case of Kawhi and the Spurs they wanted him in all 82 games and he refused. Toronto agreed to hold him out and the Clippers presumably have as well. Since Kawhi's agreement is not with the fans in every arena, that part of the equation is irrelevant. He is fulfilling the terms of his agreement with the Clippers, and they're going to fulfill their agreement as an employer.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
RG73 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
You’re right. I want the players to die


Really, that's your response? But you do want them to risk serious, career threatening, career shortening, career destructive injuries for meaningless regular season games.


They are paid to play in those meaningless games
You’re the one who jumped to life and death scenarios Lol


Again, the Clippers signed a contract with Kawhi knowing that he would need to miss X # of games per season. Therefore he is paid to play per the terms of what he agreed upon with the team. So he is not, in fact, paid to play in games where he needs to rest or in games that might increase the chance he is not available for the playoffs.

And again, you are ignoring the Kobe scenario (player playing himself into ruin over meaningless games). BI was just another example of a situation where there is an actual disease state that will worsen upon playing. It is an extreme example. But ossification of soft tissue is basically basketball death. Playing on one leg? Come on.

If management agrees to rest players, then those are the terms of their employment. I'm not sure why you can't wrap your head around an employment agreement like this. Maybe in the case of Kawhi and the Spurs they wanted him in all 82 games and he refused. Toronto agreed to hold him out and the Clippers presumably have as well. Since Kawhi's agreement is not with the fans in every arena, that part of the equation is irrelevant. He is fulfilling the terms of his agreement with the Clippers, and they're going to fulfill their agreement as an employer.

The question is, would Kobe have suffered those final injuries if he stuck to 32-34 minutes a game and played 82 games versus going several games at 48 minutes nonstop which led to him having multiple leg injuries in a short period of time, resulting in the Achilles tear? I don’t think he tears the Achilles if he plays more reasonable minutes all 82 games and sitting for actual injury recovery versus anticipatory sitting. Of course we will never know for sure though.
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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject:

RG73 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
RG73 wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
You’re right. I want the players to die


Really, that's your response? But you do want them to risk serious, career threatening, career shortening, career destructive injuries for meaningless regular season games.


They are paid to play in those meaningless games
You’re the one who jumped to life and death scenarios Lol


Again, the Clippers signed a contract with Kawhi knowing that he would need to miss X # of games per season. Therefore he is paid to play per the terms of what he agreed upon with the team. So he is not, in fact, paid to play in games where he needs to rest or in games that might increase the chance he is not available for the playoffs.

And again, you are ignoring the Kobe scenario (player playing himself into ruin over meaningless games). BI was just another example of a situation where there is an actual disease state that will worsen upon playing. It is an extreme example. But ossification of soft tissue is basically basketball death. Playing on one leg? Come on.

If management agrees to rest players, then those are the terms of their employment. I'm not sure why you can't wrap your head around an employment agreement like this. Maybe in the case of Kawhi and the Spurs they wanted him in all 82 games and he refused. Toronto agreed to hold him out and the Clippers presumably have as well. Since Kawhi's agreement is not with the fans in every arena, that part of the equation is irrelevant. He is fulfilling the terms of his agreement with the Clippers, and they're going to fulfill their agreement as an employer.


I think I can wrap my head around it. Just don’t much care for the mindset, that’s all.
We can disagree..it’s cool
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:16 am    Post subject:

My issue with the load management strategy is that there is an assumption of "meaningless" games. Which ones are they on the schedule?

We need to stop comparing old timers like Kobe to the new breed of player. Different eras have different standards. Twenty years ago the concept of load management would have have been ridiculed. Different mentality, use of training methods and passion for competition from an early age has changed the league and perceptions. We need to accept the reality of today's players.

Losing to Suns, Knicks or Grizz on any given night is just as meaningful as losing to Nuggets, Jazz or Rockets. Still a loss. Still effects the standings at the end of the season.

I do not consider injuries or chronic issues like Leonard's as the issue. It is the idea that a presumably healthy player sits down before the season starts and starts marking of his "load management" days. Before injuries or grind of the season even starts and days off are required to handle real injuries.

Or if both Davis and James choose to use this strategy. Could get complicated as both create undermanned rosters all too often.

I have no issue with injured players taking time to heal. Or older players requiring reduced mpg throughout the season. I would consider that smart.

But the practice of pre-planning on taking B2B games off or multiple games in short time spans is troubling. Considering certain games "meaningless" is an issue on a lot of levels. To the fans that pay full price for the tickets. Or to the teammates that have to cover for a healthy scratch.

From a financial perspective, if you plan on taking 15-20 games off before the season starts then why not sign for less so the team can sign a suitable replacement.

Or maybe the team can reduce ticket prices for those nights that a marquee player chose to sit out. Maybe they can share with the fans which days they pre-selected so a fan can decide whether to attend that game or not.

Finally. All the games count in the standings. Will be interesting if some of those meaningless games that the shortened roster is unable to win will cost a team a home court or even playoff spot with this highly competitive conference. But at least the marquee player will be rested, unless he actually gets injured/sick/ family issues and that needs to be factored in to the season too.
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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:56 am    Post subject:

Four Decade Bandwagon wrote:
My issue with the load management strategy is that there is an assumption of "meaningless" games. Which ones are they on the schedule?

We need to stop comparing old timers like Kobe to the new breed of player. Different eras have different standards. Twenty years ago the concept of load management would have have been ridiculed. Different mentality, use of training methods and passion for competition from an early age has changed the league and perceptions. We need to accept the reality of today's players.

Losing to Suns, Knicks or Grizz on any given night is just as meaningful as losing to Nuggets, Jazz or Rockets. Still a loss. Still effects the standings at the end of the season.

I do not consider injuries or chronic issues like Leonard's as the issue. It is the idea that a presumably healthy player sits down before the season starts and starts marking of his "load management" days. Before injuries or grind of the season even starts and days off are required to handle real injuries.

Or if both Davis and James choose to use this strategy. Could get complicated as both create undermanned rosters all too often.

I have no issue with injured players taking time to heal. Or older players requiring reduced mpg throughout the season. I would consider that smart.

But the practice of pre-planning on taking B2B games off or multiple games in short time spans is troubling. Considering certain games "meaningless" is an issue on a lot of levels. To the fans that pay full price for the tickets. Or to the teammates that have to cover for a healthy scratch.

From a financial perspective, if you plan on taking 15-20 games off before the season starts then why not sign for less so the team can sign a suitable replacement.

Or maybe the team can reduce ticket prices for those nights that a marquee player chose to sit out. Maybe they can share with the fans which days they pre-selected so a fan can decide whether to attend that game or not.

Finally. All the games count in the standings. Will be interesting if some of those meaningless games that the shortened roster is unable to win will cost a team a home court or even playoff spot with this highly competitive conference. But at least the marquee player will be rested, unless he actually gets injured/sick/ family issues and that needs to be factored in to the season too.


Boom
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:08 am    Post subject:

LAL1947 wrote:
Dr. Laker wrote:

Larry Bird and other players were advocating for a shorter regular season (60 games-ish) back in the 80's - the issue is the owners. They want to maximize interest and revenues by having the best guys out there. If they could, the owners would have 120 game seasons.

Well, that may have been true before some of the newer iterations of the CBA were agreed to... but I don't think you can blame this issue only on the owners now. If a player was signed to a 30% contract while the league has an 82 game season... and if moving to a 60 game season proportionately reduced the cap from $109m to $80m (60*109/82)... wouldn't it also be right that the 30% max player's salary is reduced from $32.7m to $24m... but would he agree to this or would he help stage another lock-out?

Anyway, unrelated point and this may be weird but I've never really liked the 82 number of games. The 82 and the format doesn't make sense from:
1) A mathematical perspective (29 has no direct connection with 82, neither does 14+15 nor 4+10+15... which is why we ended up with the weird format for how many times conference teams play each other).
2) A fairness perspective (not the fairest way to determine the best 8 in a conference when one team's set of 6 opponents who they play 4 times vs 3 times could be harder than another's)
3) Or a sporting/competitive perspective (why have some mini-series with an even number of games instead of all with an odd number, so we can have winners-losers instead of ties?)

I know the league only had 12 teams when they first raised the number of games to 82... and has had a differing number of teams since... it has never made sense at any point, except for being the number they agreed to with the networks in the 1960s and stuck with.


Don't know if I can find a quote from the 80's, but I believe Bird's position was that the players would be willing to do a proportional paycut.

Of course, that was 30+ years ago and it was before hedge fund managers were paying billions for teams.

An interesting point of view, however, is the NFL. As they look at expanding to 18 regular season games, they are going to limit players to a maximum of 16 games. That - along with the "bye" weeks - is institutional load management.

Load management has been around in sports for a while. Benching older players and catchers in day games following night games in baseball has happened since the 1940s. Pitch counts are 35 years old. Al Davis instituted snap counts for players in the 60s (limiting the number of snaps a guy would play to maximize energy), etc.

Lakers proposed a minutes limit to Kobe the season we hired D'Antoni - Kobe just wouldn't follow it. Shoot, he might still be playing (a la Vince Carter) had he done so.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:00 am    Post subject:

LaLaLakeShow wrote:
activeverb wrote:
LaLaLakeShow wrote:
Why shouldn’t the owners want to get the most out of the players they give these contracts to? How many other jobs allow people to “Load Manage”? Lol
Do you really think the players union would be willing to go to a shortened season knowing annual salaries would have to take a dip, on average??
I don’t think so. The players are paid to play. They should play. Seems pretty simple to me 🤷‍♂️



You are fundamentally missing the point. The purpose of Load Management is to maximize the production of players, and to make sure they are performing at peak levels when the team needs them most.

By your perspective, players would be playing 48 minutes a game, even if that means they are performing sub-optimally and hurting their teams as a result.

Load Management isn't a way of helping players slack off. It's a realization that human beings aren't machines, and there are strategies to ensure that athletes can perform at peak efficiency.

No offense, but I am going to assume you are really young and don't know anything about how to manage people in the real world and help them be the best possible versions of themselves. That isn't accomplished by treating them like machines.


Assume whatever you want.
Play them less minutes here and there, sure.
I just don’t feel they should be taking so many whole games off.
Kobe once said he fought through so many injuries because he never wanted to rob the fans of what could potentially be their only time ever seeing him play. I respect that.
A whole lot more than this recent trend, THAT’s for sure
But you obviously disagree. Cool beans


Idk how much money the league would really lose if they cut games. If more games are such an important factor for profits then why does the NFL with only 16 RS games have such high profits?

With fewer games comes more importance for the games. The ticket prices, parking prices, concession prices etc would all be higher. Also the advertising fees would be higher as well. The lower the supply (games) the higher the demand and prices. For example if they cut the NBA regular season in length by around 25% the prices of everything would rise by a substantial amount. I don't think the revenue loss would be as big as everyone thinks.

Having such a long RS makes the RS games meaningless and lowers of the quality of play. It would never happen, but ideally the RS should be 30 games and you play each team once.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:09 am    Post subject:

I'm all for more less games. It will just make the game more modern and better anyway. Also it will help offset any record breaking that is not earned in the same manner. I feel it is important to remember the struggles of the legends of the game.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:17 am    Post subject:

^ I would run a 60 game season. Play everyone in your conference 3 times and play the other conference once. I would also get rid of the 7 game playoff format and turn it into 5.

Since they wont do that, load managing makes a ton of sense. Its great Kobe had his mentality of never resting but if he did load manage he might still be on the Lakers
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject:

secund2nun wrote:


With fewer games comes more importance for the games. The ticket prices, parking prices, concession prices etc would all be higher. Also the advertising fees would be higher as well. The lower the supply (games) the higher the demand and prices. For example if they cut the NBA regular season in length by around 25% the prices of everything would rise by a substantial amount. I don't think the revenue loss would be as big as everyone thinks.



I have a hard time believing that reducing the regular season from, say, 82 games to 62 games would create the sense of scarcity you imagine.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:43 am    Post subject:

kwase wrote:
Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Jamaal Wilkes, Elgin Baylor and Kareem all had to play 82 games a season in Converse and shoes with no padding, flying commercial planes with no leg room, sometimes going from city to city in buses, no staff to give them massages, no catered food prepared by chefs and no personal trainers.

This new generation post 2000's are just soft, plain and simple. A lot of them are spoiled, entitled brats that have no appreciation for how good they have it. If an athlete is healthy enough to play he should play. Anything other than that is weak!


Yes, it isn’t like technology has advanced since the 60’s.
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defense
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:07 am    Post subject:

I am not for less games

I'm bored as hell right now

Let's make a 100 game season
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activeverb
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject:

defense wrote:
I am not for less games

I'm bored as hell right now

Let's make a 100 game season



Make it easy.

One game.

Two teams.

Each team gets 500 players.

You start on Jan. 1 at midnight.

Play continuously to Dec, 31 at night.

You keep rotating in your 500 players as needed.

Perfect load management.

Not too many games.

Everyone's happy.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 11:57 am    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
defense wrote:
I am not for less games

I'm bored as hell right now

Let's make a 100 game season



Make it easy.

One game.

Two teams.

Each team gets 500 players.

You start on Jan. 1 at midnight.

Play continuously to Dec, 31 at night.

You keep rotating in your 500 players as needed.

Perfect load management.

Not too many games.

Everyone's happy.


I know you're being facetious, but can you imagine? Stars would only play for a fraction of a season. Coaches would release an active roster beforehand, so fans know what game to buy tickets for.

If a team is forced to play their scrubs, the opposite team would capitalize by activating their stars.

The NBA, as we know it, will be crazy imbalanced.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 12:23 pm    Post subject:

Gellollo wrote:
activeverb wrote:
defense wrote:
I am not for less games

I'm bored as hell right now

Let's make a 100 game season



Make it easy.

One game.

Two teams.

Each team gets 500 players.

You start on Jan. 1 at midnight.

Play continuously to Dec, 31 at night.

You keep rotating in your 500 players as needed.

Perfect load management.

Not too many games.

Everyone's happy.


I know you're being facetious, but can you imagine? Stars would only play for a fraction of a season. Coaches would release an active roster beforehand, so fans know what game to buy tickets for.

If a team is forced to play their scrubs, the opposite team would capitalize by activating their stars.

The NBA, as we know it, will be crazy imbalanced.



On the bright side, if you fell 1,000 points behind in the fall,you could make it up in summer.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:57 pm    Post subject:

secund2nun wrote:

Having such a long RS makes the RS games meaningless and lowers of the quality of play. It would never happen, but ideally the RS should be 30 games and you play each team once.

If there are 30 teams and you play each team once, we'd have 29 games cos we can't play ourselves. Either way, too short and there has to be a home-away factor. A home-away would give us 58 regular season games and a possible 86 games for the two teams who reach the finals.

Still too short? Perhaps, 3 games total vs teams in the same conference (the extra game could be a home game in alternating years) and 2 games total vs teams in the other conference... giving a total of 72 regular season games and a possible 100 games for the teams who reach the finals, a nice round number.

A downside of changing the number of games... it's going to mess with comparing old records vs new ones... but that's already kinda messed up with how the game has changed.
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LaLaLakeShow
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:35 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
defense wrote:
I am not for less games

I'm bored as hell right now

Let's make a 100 game season



Make it easy.

One game.

Two teams.

Each team gets 500 players.

You start on Jan. 1 at midnight.

Play continuously to Dec, 31 at night.

You keep rotating in your 500 players as needed.

Perfect load management.

Not too many games.

Everyone's happy.


😆😂😆
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:07 pm    Post subject:

"It's Taco Tuesday!"
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject:

NASCAR driver takes bizarre shot at LeBron James, NBA for player rest

Quote:
James' name was weirdly brought up by Keselowski as he was trying to make a point that private planes make it possible for them to spend time with family because they, unlike NBA players, don't get to take a race off without putting their careers at stake.

"I understand that most people might not get that concept, but most people aren't in the situation we're in as race car drivers that travel every week. We don't get to skip a week. We're not like LeBron James where we get to sit on the bench or stay home for a week or whatever it is from other sports. This is 38 weeks, and they will run the race without you. And your a-- will get fired if you don't show up. So that's really hard to explain to people. And it's very hard to explain to your wife and daughter when you miss something that's really special to them. Private aviation is a great way to try to fill those gaps. And we might get a black eye because of that, but it's something that I'm really passionate about and very thankful for."


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/nascar-driver-takes-bizarre-shot-at-lebron-james-nba-for-player-rest/ar-AAG81VZ?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=mailsignout
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:35 pm    Post subject:

Black20Ice wrote:
NASCAR driver takes bizarre shot at LeBron James, NBA for player rest

Quote:
James' name was weirdly brought up by Keselowski as he was trying to make a point that private planes make it possible for them to spend time with family because they, unlike NBA players, don't get to take a race off without putting their careers at stake.

"I understand that most people might not get that concept, but most people aren't in the situation we're in as race car drivers that travel every week. We don't get to skip a week. We're not like LeBron James where we get to sit on the bench or stay home for a week or whatever it is from other sports. This is 38 weeks, and they will run the race without you. And your a-- will get fired if you don't show up. So that's really hard to explain to people. And it's very hard to explain to your wife and daughter when you miss something that's really special to them. Private aviation is a great way to try to fill those gaps. And we might get a black eye because of that, but it's something that I'm really passionate about and very thankful for."


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/nascar-driver-takes-bizarre-shot-at-lebron-james-nba-for-player-rest/ar-AAG81VZ?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=mailsignout


What an idiot. Why would a single driver expect load management?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject:

yinoma2001 wrote:
Black20Ice wrote:
NASCAR driver takes bizarre shot at LeBron James, NBA for player rest

Quote:
James' name was weirdly brought up by Keselowski as he was trying to make a point that private planes make it possible for them to spend time with family because they, unlike NBA players, don't get to take a race off without putting their careers at stake.

"I understand that most people might not get that concept, but most people aren't in the situation we're in as race car drivers that travel every week. We don't get to skip a week. We're not like LeBron James where we get to sit on the bench or stay home for a week or whatever it is from other sports. This is 38 weeks, and they will run the race without you. And your a-- will get fired if you don't show up. So that's really hard to explain to people. And it's very hard to explain to your wife and daughter when you miss something that's really special to them. Private aviation is a great way to try to fill those gaps. And we might get a black eye because of that, but it's something that I'm really passionate about and very thankful for."


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/nascar-driver-takes-bizarre-shot-at-lebron-james-nba-for-player-rest/ar-AAG81VZ?li=BBnbfcL&ocid=mailsignout


What an idiot. Why would a single driver expect load management?


But where was he wrong in his assessment? NBA players have far more freedom over their careers than NASCAR drivers, Yeah?
Why was he wrong in using the most famous NBA player to make the comparison?
I certainly don’t see how it’s a “shot” at LeBron. Maybe I’m missing something
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Judah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:08 pm    Post subject:

I literally forget that NASCAR is a thing. People still watch that?
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