Shaq vs. Kobe
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Joe Pesci
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:52 am    Post subject: Shaq vs. Kobe

I have Shaq above Kobe as an all-time great.

Kobe was a "video game" and way more exciting to watch, but if I'm trying to win a ring, for one year, no doubt in mind Shaq was the better player.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:58 pm    Post subject:

If we're taking both in their primes, Shaq was the more impactful player because he was a big man, and big men impact the game defensively more than a great defensive wing.

Imo Shaq's MVP season was the most dominant season any human being has ever had in the NBA. I have no idea how to translate Wilt's prime numbers into the modern era, especially when they didn't keep track of blocks or steals back then.

But short-term impact isn't the only criteria. Kobe's prime lasted much longer than Shaq. Shaq's true prime really lasted like 2 years, while Kobe's true prime lasted anywhere from 5-10 years.

Plus, Kobe was a great closer (unlike Shaq). Dr. Jack Ramsay said in 2010 that, in his opinion, Kobe was the greatest closer in NBA history. Phil, on the other hand, publicly questioned whether Shaq could be a closer since he was a bad FT shooter.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:53 pm    Post subject:

Kobe won with less. Both are top 10 ever but id take Kobe
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:09 am    Post subject:

Yes, both are all time greats
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:48 am    Post subject:

Kobe
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:27 pm    Post subject:

Nothing against Shaq or Pau, but Pau wasn't on the level of Dwyane Wade or younger Kobe...

and Kobe got 2 rings.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:42 pm    Post subject:

Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 1:49 pm    Post subject:

I love both Shaq and Kobe so I’m not gonna choose against 1 or the other.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 5:52 pm    Post subject:

In the vacuum of "if I had to win a ring, one year, with one player in their prime" then Shaq probably is #1 on the all time list. Shaq was the most dominant player ever, he just couldn't sustain it.

In an all time GOAT list, IMO, Kobe should rank higher than Shaq but in a list like this then I think Shaq is second to none.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 6:47 pm    Post subject:

Day wrote:
In the vacuum of "if I had to win a ring, one year, with one player in their prime" then Shaq probably is #1 on the all time list.

I agree with this, the only thing is, Shaq wasn't a closer.

Because of that, I'd make a strong argument that Jordan and Kareem could also be #1 on that kind of list.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Shaq vs. Kobe

Joe Pesci wrote:
I have Shaq above Kobe as an all-time great.

Kobe was a "video game" and way more exciting to watch, but if I'm trying to win a ring, for one year, no doubt in mind Shaq was the better player.


Their overall career achievements are fairly equivalent. I can't honestly say I have a strong sense if one is better than the other, and I've never seen a compelling argument for one above the other. It comes down to which style of play you like and which subjective criteria you choose to give more weight to
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:47 am    Post subject:

I too have been watching the NBA since 1985, so I will leave Kareem and Dr. J out of this list. My top 15 players since 1985 are as follows:

1. MJ--I hate the guy but I still put him on top. No flaws to his game.

2. Lebron--Only flaw is he doesn't trust his jumper down the stretch of key games.

3. Duncan--A steady rock of excellence for his whole career.

4. Magic--The consummate team player and winner.

5. Bird--The consummate team player and winner.

6. Kobe--Jordan-lite. Maybe the most determined athlete I have ever seen.

7. Shaq--Most physically dominant in my lifetime. But free throws and defense were a problem for the big guy.

8. Hakeem--The most underrated force ever on both ends. He was so good.

9. Curry--Revolutionized the game with his 3 point range.

10. KD--An amazing shooter and scorer with amazing length.

11. Wade--Won as batman and robin. Not a great shooter but an amazing driver and creator.

12. K. Malone--An amazing scorer and tough ass defender. Just not good enough to lead that Jazz team to a ring in that era.

13. KG--A very good offensive player and defensive player. A great leader.

14. Dirk--Carried his team past Kobe and Lebron in 2011. A unique offensive force.

15. Isiah--Led Pistons in the toughest era ever and came out with 2 rings. Maybe best player 6 foot and under ever.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 5:14 am    Post subject:

If you're choosing your franchise player for the next 10 or 15 years you have to go with Kobe.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 8:13 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
Shaq's true prime really lasted like 2 years, while Kobe's true prime lasted anywhere from 5-10 years.



Shaq was productive for a long time. During the period that you label outside his "true prime," he came in second in MVP voting, led the league in scoring, and set personal career highs in rebounding and block shots.

I'd say Shaq and Kobe's run as elite players was roughly the same. For both guys, I'd say their elite period was 10-15 years, depending on exactly how you define elite.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 3:46 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Shaq's true prime really lasted like 2 years, while Kobe's true prime lasted anywhere from 5-10 years.



Shaq was productive for a long time. During the period that you label outside his "true prime," he came in second in MVP voting, led the league in scoring, and set personal career highs in rebounding and block shots.

I'd say Shaq and Kobe's run as elite players was roughly the same. For both guys, I'd say their elite period was 10-15 years, depending on exactly how you define elite.

You're right when you said that Shaq was productive and elite for a long time.

But numbers can be misleading. I remember until Phil came, Shaq would play great in the first half and then fade in the second half.

The only time it seems like opponents were truly afraid of him was in the early 2000s. Those two years I mentioned were the only years Shaq was truly in shape.

Two points isn't two points. Two points in crunch time are much more valuable than two points in the first quarter.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:14 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:

But numbers can be misleading. I remember until Phil came, Shaq would play great in the first half and then fade in the second half.

The only time it seems like opponents were truly afraid of him was in the early 2000s. Those two years I mentioned were the only years Shaq was truly in shape.


I get that during the threepeat Shaq's physical style attracted a lot of attention, and those three years are considered the best of his career. But your perception that teams weren't afraid of him when he was playing at an MVP level and taking the Heat and Orlando to the finals doesn't hold water for me.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 4:18 pm    Post subject:

Shaq was also feared when in Orlando
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 5:15 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
Shaq's true prime really lasted like 2 years, while Kobe's true prime lasted anywhere from 5-10 years.



Shaq was productive for a long time. During the period that you label outside his "true prime," he came in second in MVP voting, led the league in scoring, and set personal career highs in rebounding and block shots.

I'd say Shaq and Kobe's run as elite players was roughly the same. For both guys, I'd say their elite period was 10-15 years, depending on exactly how you define elite.

You're right when you said that Shaq was productive and elite for a long time.

But numbers can be misleading. I remember until Phil came, Shaq would play great in the first half and then fade in the second half.

The only time it seems like opponents were truly afraid of him was in the early 2000s. Those two years I mentioned were the only years Shaq was truly in shape.

Two points isn't two points. Two points in crunch time are much more valuable than two points in the first quarter.


You have some points to make about Shaq. He wasn't flawless. But he was a dominant force in the league for as long as Kobe. Truthfully, I'd say MJ and Lebron are in their own category, with a whole bunch of guys coming in after them in whatever order you want beauty is in the eye of the beholder (Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem).
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 7:57 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:

But numbers can be misleading. I remember until Phil came, Shaq would play great in the first half and then fade in the second half.

The only time it seems like opponents were truly afraid of him was in the early 2000s. Those two years I mentioned were the only years Shaq was truly in shape.


I get that during the threepeat Shaq's physical style attracted a lot of attention, and those three years are considered the best of his career. But your perception that teams weren't afraid of him when he was playing at an MVP level and taking the Heat and Orlando to the finals doesn't hold water for me.

Teams were even more afraid of Shaq in 2000 and 2001 than they were in the 90s or in 2005 with the Heat.

Let's also remember that 1999-2000 was the only time Shaq was truly in shape and worked hard on taking care of his body. Down the stretch of games and in the playoffs, Shaq was much more effective that year and the next year than he was at any other time.

Also, Shaq actually played consistent D that season, which he didn't really do before or since. He also seemed more focused on rebounding in 2000.

Until he won his first chip, his teams got swept almost every single year in the playoffs. The one exception was '97, when we lost 4-1 to Utah.

We can say that Shaq's "prime" lasted as long as Kobe's prime. But Shaq's "peak" only lasted a year or two, while Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Magic and Bird all had a longer peak.

If Shaq wanted to, he could've had at least 5 years in a row like his MVP season. If he did, we'd be debating right now if he's the GOAT.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 8:53 pm    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:

But numbers can be misleading. I remember until Phil came, Shaq would play great in the first half and then fade in the second half.

The only time it seems like opponents were truly afraid of him was in the early 2000s. Those two years I mentioned were the only years Shaq was truly in shape.


I get that during the threepeat Shaq's physical style attracted a lot of attention, and those three years are considered the best of his career. But your perception that teams weren't afraid of him when he was playing at an MVP level and taking the Heat and Orlando to the finals doesn't hold water for me.

Teams were even more afraid of Shaq in 2000 and 2001 than they were in the 90s or in 2005 with the Heat.

Let's also remember that 1999-2000 was the only time Shaq was truly in shape and worked hard on taking care of his body. Down the stretch of games and in the playoffs, Shaq was much more effective that year and the next year than he was at any other time.

Also, Shaq actually played consistent D that season, which he didn't really do before or since. He also seemed more focused on rebounding in 2000.

Until he won his first chip, his teams got swept almost every single year in the playoffs. The one exception was '97, when we lost 4-1 to Utah.

We can say that Shaq's "prime" lasted as long as Kobe's prime. But Shaq's "peak" only lasted a year or two, while Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Magic and Bird all had a longer peak.

If Shaq wanted to, he could've had at least 5 years in a row like his MVP season. If he did, we'd be debating right now if he's the GOAT.



I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "prime" vs. "peak," or how you are deciding how many prime/peak years each of these guys had. But I get the gist of it.

In any case, I don't see as much of a differentiation of how long they were peak/prime/super-super as you do.
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PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2020 9:10 pm    Post subject:

activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:

But numbers can be misleading. I remember until Phil came, Shaq would play great in the first half and then fade in the second half.

The only time it seems like opponents were truly afraid of him was in the early 2000s. Those two years I mentioned were the only years Shaq was truly in shape.


I get that during the threepeat Shaq's physical style attracted a lot of attention, and those three years are considered the best of his career. But your perception that teams weren't afraid of him when he was playing at an MVP level and taking the Heat and Orlando to the finals doesn't hold water for me.

Teams were even more afraid of Shaq in 2000 and 2001 than they were in the 90s or in 2005 with the Heat.

Let's also remember that 1999-2000 was the only time Shaq was truly in shape and worked hard on taking care of his body. Down the stretch of games and in the playoffs, Shaq was much more effective that year and the next year than he was at any other time.

Also, Shaq actually played consistent D that season, which he didn't really do before or since. He also seemed more focused on rebounding in 2000.

Until he won his first chip, his teams got swept almost every single year in the playoffs. The one exception was '97, when we lost 4-1 to Utah.

We can say that Shaq's "prime" lasted as long as Kobe's prime. But Shaq's "peak" only lasted a year or two, while Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Magic and Bird all had a longer peak.

If Shaq wanted to, he could've had at least 5 years in a row like his MVP season. If he did, we'd be debating right now if he's the GOAT.



I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "prime" vs. "peak," or how you are deciding how many prime/peak years each of these guys had. But I get the gist of it.

In any case, I don't see as much of a differentiation of how long they were peak/prime/super-super as you do.

There's always a degree of subjectivity in these debates, and it's perfectly OK if you disagree with me or have different criteria.

The only other thing I'll say about Shaq is this: I was a little kid when he and Kobe came to the Lakers, and based on the eye test, there was a significant difference between him in the 90s vs. in the early 2000s when it came to the impact he had on a game and how dominant he seemed, not just offensively but overall.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 9:37 am    Post subject:

slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:
activeverb wrote:
slavavov wrote:

But numbers can be misleading. I remember until Phil came, Shaq would play great in the first half and then fade in the second half.

The only time it seems like opponents were truly afraid of him was in the early 2000s. Those two years I mentioned were the only years Shaq was truly in shape.


I get that during the threepeat Shaq's physical style attracted a lot of attention, and those three years are considered the best of his career. But your perception that teams weren't afraid of him when he was playing at an MVP level and taking the Heat and Orlando to the finals doesn't hold water for me.

Teams were even more afraid of Shaq in 2000 and 2001 than they were in the 90s or in 2005 with the Heat.

Let's also remember that 1999-2000 was the only time Shaq was truly in shape and worked hard on taking care of his body. Down the stretch of games and in the playoffs, Shaq was much more effective that year and the next year than he was at any other time.

Also, Shaq actually played consistent D that season, which he didn't really do before or since. He also seemed more focused on rebounding in 2000.

Until he won his first chip, his teams got swept almost every single year in the playoffs. The one exception was '97, when we lost 4-1 to Utah.

We can say that Shaq's "prime" lasted as long as Kobe's prime. But Shaq's "peak" only lasted a year or two, while Kobe, MJ, LeBron, Magic and Bird all had a longer peak.

If Shaq wanted to, he could've had at least 5 years in a row like his MVP season. If he did, we'd be debating right now if he's the GOAT.



I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "prime" vs. "peak," or how you are deciding how many prime/peak years each of these guys had. But I get the gist of it.

In any case, I don't see as much of a differentiation of how long they were peak/prime/super-super as you do.

There's always a degree of subjectivity in these debates, and it's perfectly OK if you disagree with me or have different criteria.

The only other thing I'll say about Shaq is this: I was a little kid when he and Kobe came to the Lakers, and based on the eye test, there was a significant difference between him in the 90s vs. in the early 2000s when it came to the impact he had on a game and how dominant he seemed, not just offensively but overall.



We were great during the threepeat. Shaq benefited from Kobe's development; from Phil Jackson's coaching, and from rule changes that allowed more physicality. He also got more attention from being in Los Angeles.

I certainly accept that was the high point of his career. Where we part company is the idea that those were the only two years where he was truly peak, elite or whatever term you want to use.

Anyway, it feels like this topic has been covered.
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 9:42 am    Post subject:

Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:02 am    Post subject:

skin wrote:
Joe Pesci wrote:
Best prime players I've ever witnessed live since 1985:

1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. LeBron
5. Olajuwon
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Durant
10. Thomas
11. Curry
12. Wade
13. Pippen
14. Garnett
15. Worthy


It's astounding how overrated Duncan is. He can't even make a layup (missed two layups in a row) to save his team from losing the NBA finals. He doesn't get as much criticism because he is quiet and stoic and doesn't have much of a personality. He is fundamentally sound, but not a top 15 all-time great. Put Pau Gasol on the same Spurs team and they win the same number of titles (maybe 1 more because Pau would not have missed those layups vs Miami).


That list maybe overrates him a bit but you underrate him way too much
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PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2020 11:12 am    Post subject:

Mike@LG wrote:
Nothing against Shaq or Pau, but Pau wasn't on the level of Dwyane Wade or younger Kobe...

and Kobe got 2 rings.


Wade was awesome. Individually, peak Wade was top three in the league, a post Pau never got to. But in a team sport, Pau was not only individually great but he was among the best ‘sum of the parts’ players of all time. There’s a reason his era of the Spanish National Team was among the best in history.

IMO Pau is chronically underrated.
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